Volleyguy,
What exactly are yuo hearing that led you to post about "energy lost" in regard to this current CAST capacitor compared to the other caps you mentioned?
Regards, |
I am just stunned at how much energy is lost in most capacitors including VSF.
I have not fully assessed the "sound" but can already say on a technical basis for sure it is incredible how different the CAST is from Jensen, VCap Cuft and Duelund VSF. This has happened to me before I heard so much about diminishing returns at this level that cap differences become small.
Well I can say it is simply not true. In fact the difference on a technical basis is vastly greater from CAST and the other 3 than the other 3 have from each other.
The energy lost in a cap must be wayyyyy more than we (or at least me) thought? I read on something totally unrelated that up to 50% of energy is lost in heat in a capacitor? Maybe Duelund could comment on this. Is the energy storage that inefficient?
I guess that explains Steen's like of simple crossovers. A complex crossover would boggle the mind on energy loss! |
Disorientating.
When CAST went in the tweeter I thought I wired something up wrong. No other cap did that including VSF.
This time at the start stiff and tight sounding. After several hours the CAST cap overpowers the others. (which in the left channel is VSF and Jensen)
I have went up to check the balance several times? It is very interesting.
This is a part that takes time to figure out. One thing about this thread is I can go back to see if the CAST caps had the smell? (from when I bought before) The VSF, inductors, copper and both lines of Silver wire for sure did. The wire was oily. The smell was the you can eat it smell. |
One CAST cap in Ampohm out. Going to take some surgery to get the other in.
So far dry and tight sounding??? Something weird going on? Not what I was expecting?
Might have try the other cap in another amp? I know CAST do take more break in time than VSF.
Just going to leave on for a few hours and check again. |
Duelund
Is there a correct way to wire in for polarity? Both leads are the same.
Thanks |
No idea, there's no difference. |
One area to note is the new Duelund caps do not have the customary Duelund smell? Anyone else notice this and why? Duelund and comments? |
The Duelund CAST caps are in and they are WAY bigger than the VSF caps or the Jensen's. I have yet to find a case ever where the bigger heavier cap did not sound better. They go in tomorrow if they fit! |
I should state and have before that when using vintage amps and changing coupling caps (or any caps) which for SURE change the tonal balance it is an easy adjustment for me. (tone controls)
Vintage and Ampohm caps -4 on treble and +4 on bass. Even on Jensen and VSF bass is cut and treble up to flat.
No tone controls? Hmmm... Anyone changing caps should be prepared for this. I am already expecting with CAST a full cut to flat on bass.
If one could not adjust tone a mixture of caps may be needed? |
houstonreef, the duo midrange does not have any xo parts, luckily.
suggest you search for the thread "mods for avantgarde speakers". a lot of tips there how to improve your speakers! |
I placed my order with Parts ConeXion.com. |
Charles1dad:Where did you order your Duelund cap to get 20% off?
Duomike: Did you upgrade cap in the mid-range of Duo too? |
I see the Duelund caps are in from Denmark at Partsconnexion.
It should not be long before they are here maybe by the weekend?
In the EL 84 amp that I put in the Jensen and Duelund VSF in the one side to compare vs. CAST when they get here it is just shocking how much more bass there is. I always thought the amp was just anemic in that department. |
I am excited about the CAST for electronics coming.
We will see if my gut is right but I think CAST will be very good. In the Clarity White paper I think it was 30%? of people who preferred high resonance capacitors. I know more preferred low resonance but it was not 100% for low resonance.
Houstonreef asked which Duelund and that is not always clear. What is clear is CAST are mechanically superior BY FAR in controlling resonance over VSF.
I can not imagine (at this point) why anyone would want added resonance in the electronics? Resonance favors the frequency of sound the capacitor resonates at and reduces other frequencies bass reduction can be huge. The resonance is also a loss of dynamics. Resonance can give a feel of more "air" as that is the freq resonance occurs. My "guess" is if one wanted to "add" resonance I think you may want it in certain caps in the crossover likely midrange and not in electronics. (this is if at all!)
In the case with Duelund the harmonic structure gets richer every time I put there parts in. Your brain goes that random sound is a this or that.
In my final tests setting the caps in the amp. The test caps will be (of which I have two of each)
Jensen Copper Paper Tube
Vintage ERO foil in polyester
Ampohm Copper foil in oil
Duelund VSF
Duelund CAST (coming)
Will it be two CAST's or some combination? First test is CAST vs. VSF (my current reference)
Will I be able to get my in series Duelund tweeter inductor in the speaker. The only Duelund part that did not improve sound overall. The change in DCR did not work. |
It is just my crossovers that were in series.
I already owned the VSF's which worked out nicely meaning not more money for CAST which are costly.
When I did the basement here the book I used for advice (on doing up the room) was the sales distributor for Avantgarde in the U.S. Jim Smith.
Some helpful tips. I did put down a wood sub floor. I will have to post some pics soon.
Love to hear the Trio's. What is the cap for you mid range horn? |
Houstonreef,
just open the 2 screws to remove the back cover. Then remove the internal cable (clip on connectors). The xo circuit board is screwed into the 4 binding posts. very easy to remove. believe the duelunds are too big and won't fit the board so you will have to think about where to put them.
when opening the speakers I'd like to suggest you solder all internal connections with decent silver solder. Nice improvement for no money at all.
believe it is not a good idea to parallel 2 different caps |
Thanks Duomike and Volleyguy1 for your advice.
Volleyguy1: As you explained in the above answer is the combination of one Cast and ona VFS because i need two of them in a tweeter. Do they need to be in order? because i never open the back cover of the tweeter before.
Duomike: Do you have procedure/trick to open the back cover (especially the binding post)? |
I have placed an order in for a Duelund CAST cap (might up that to two) and will likely get at least 3 more if they sound the way I expect. They are due in on Wednesday from Denmark. Then they will be shipped to me. Maybe end of next week? I live only 1 hour from Partsconnexion.
Houstonreef
It depends on what you like a bit. The CAST are ultra low noise which you should like in horns. I have compared in the Klipsch two in series 2uf tweeter caps of 2 Mundorf Supreme a Silver in Oil and Duelund VSF and Duelund CAST. The CAST when I first put them in I thought I wired something up wrong that is right after the VSF's! I actually put my ear up to the tweeter to hear if it was even working! I tried all combinations and liked a CAST followed by a VSF second choice was two CAST's in series. (just soooo quiet) I could not stand two VSF's as they were FAR too noisy! Also a loss of dynamics with all the resonance.
If I was getting just one cap it would be CAST clearly. I can assure you the difference is something you can easily hear.
I had tried the CAST before Tony Gee had and thought they should be rated 17 (by his numbers) then if the VSF was 12.5. He "only" gives the CAST a 14 out of 10?
I will be able to give another reassessment maybe by the end of next week at least in electronics. CAST vs. VSF in electronics is the coming up comparison. I am curious? VSF is my current cap best over Jensen Copper Paper Tube. I just could not justify CAST till now for small value caps. |
the standard duo uses 2 x 2,2 uF mundorf supreme caps. I replaced the 3,3 uF silver/gold mundorfs in my omega dup with teflon v-caps. the improvements are dramatic. the tweeter cap has a huge influence on the sound and I'd like to suggest to buy the best duelund cap you can afford |
I try to replace cap in the teewter of my Advantgarde Duo 2.0 (currently having mundorf). Please advise me what model of Deulund cap should i buy. |
Space is certainly an issue. I am having an expansion chassis being made of wood that expands the depth of my chassis by 8 inches. This is how I can fit all these big can Mallory caps. |
Grannyring
You can increase the uf on SS rectified? (unlimited) I understand you should not exceed a 50% increase on tube rectified. That is my next project the power supply in the SS rectified amp. Very much a pain in the butt to find the right parts. What is it like to find space in a new amp? The Fisher 500c is awesome for space underneath for working on lots of room for those big Duelund parts. (part of the reason I choose vintage to test on was space and point to point plus low entry price because when I am done I will own these amps no matter what) Space on top for power supply another story. On one of the EL 84's I had a deck made of steel to house the ASC caps. (huge caps!) I have get that amp out again as the poly caps were not shrill like the Jensen. A lot of deep bass is what I remember but a poly tone.
Is it a general rule of thumb but the sought after output tubes seem to always be big? I like the sound of the EH 7591A in the Fisher bigger than the original.
I can not even say for sure the effect of the power supply cap (change) is the same in SS rectified although I am sure it is. Quiet is quiet.
I have a gut feeling that a Duelund CAST is the ultimate power supply cap. DEAD quiet if you could afford it!
I am curious of Dgarretson's Clarity caps in the power supply. If the Jensen is a typical electrolytic now then they have no place in Audio (except space) and I can see why people will go to poly in the power supply. |
Yes my power supply has a bridged rectifier as an FYI. It is a 50 watt push/pull amp using el34 or kt88 or 66's |
My amp used 270 and 470 uf caps but I am replacing with 1500 and 3300 uf caps from Mallory. Again, replacing with more capacitance for better sound. |
Grannyring
I think my vintage caps are Mallory but I am not sure what they share with modern Mallory caps?
I assume your amp has a SS power supply not tube rectified?
The EL 84 amps I have use 60/40uf. Your size would be out of the question.
I am certainly no power supply expert just a guy with ears.
Grannyring I am "stuck" with the Duelund VSF inductors. (but i do believe you! From CAST experience) That was part of the reason for the thread having people talk before they buy. (selling parts is great way to lose money!)
Was anything close to the Black Gates and did you try the WKZ series. They look quite big and heavy. |
Well Volleyguy you really would like the Cast inductors. No noise I can hear, excellent dynamics, tonal color, and immediacy. Put them in my 3.6s. Go for it. As for electrolytics it's too bad the Black Gates are no longer available as they have the lowest noise floor or anything I've tried . Imagine a 200 watt/ ch amp with 160,000 uF ps of these!. As an alternative I'd try the Mundorfs, Evox Rifa PEH, or Sikorels, the last of which I've never seen in the US. |
Can one even find a PIO with enough capacitance for a proper power supply? I use values from 1500uf to 3300uf. I have learned from an excellent tube amp builder that a power supply should be made with large can computer grade caps and loads of capacitance for best sound.
I am nearing the end of a tube amp build right now and am building the power supply so this topic is very interesting to me. |
Volleyguy1, I use those large computer grade can caps made by Mallory. I find they work very well in power supplies, Have you tried them? |
Ahhhh that's better! (vintage in and sounding wonderful)
Comparing the Jensen Duelund vs. the Ampohm vintage as coupling caps.
Duelund doing what they do best turning random sounds into instruments.
Three biggest improvements of all parts changed and it has been a lot!
1 Duelund CAST tweeter caps even over VSF (shocking reduction in noise)
2 Duelund woofer inductor VSF high freq noise reduction that shocked me in comparison to North Creek and the second place contender being the vintage wax paper inductor. (would still LOVE to hear a CAST inductor)
3 Vintage electrolytic over Jensen just huge and really opens the mind as to what is possible in the power supply.
All tests are being done on horn speakers and horns hate noise.
The theme is consistent and seems to never change. Make sure the part has a way of dealing with resonance or it will deal with you! |
A link to a Leak Stereo 12 article.
Paper in oil power supply
http://www.44bx.com/leak/TL12_50yrs.html
Of course the amp was very expensive in the day compared to wages.
Now that the basement is done back to this power supply issue.
I was really hoping someone else would go there. If a vintage electrolytic can sound THAT much better what would a paper in oil power supply sound like?
Is that cap every bit a important as coupling caps. I think even more so! |
Charles1dad
I am sure of it. The light weight Jensen sounded it's worse at high freq. they sound oddly enough what they look like light and dry. Shrill and harsh. I remember when it went in, just awful! (I was hoping for improvement through breakin no luck)
I would bet money that just like a Duelund CAST deals with the resonance even over the VSF so does the vintage electrolytic. Not through any high tech casting just liquid weight and mass.
I have heard guys mention how the poly caps sound better than any electrolytic in the power supply? If the Jensen is an indicator that would not be hard!
The ASC's that were highly rated had a liquid around the cap again weight and mass. No high tech dampening just weight to the structure.
I remember reading about how great a Leak Stereo 20 sounded (over other EL84 amps and hearing it had a paper in oil power supply. Hmmm. |
Makes you wonder if that extra weight and mass confer more beneficial damping. I`m sure there`re other factors involved but damping may be an under appreciated result.
Regards, |
There are some Western Electric caps for sale on eBay for $2100
Just HUGE! Looks like 100uf weighs 5 lbs?
The ad claims best in the world? (sonically)
In my cap testing for coupling and power supply I have not heard a lighter smaller cap EVER outperform a larger heavier one of the same type.
Whether it is Western Electric, Black Gate WKZ, Duelund VSF, Duelund CAST they all have one thing in common they are big and heavy. |
Jensen out vintage back in.
Size of vintage is twice as big. Weight is 3-5 times as heavy. |
There is a pair of Black Gate WKZ's on eBay for $1200. I tried to get Peter (Audio Note) to sell me some before. (obviously no luck)
I have never heard the Black Gates just so much about them.
I think they are my size. Scary even to look!
I had one EL 84 changed to ASC power supply caps. I am going to get that amp back out. I do remember the tone change. Lots of bass though. |
I remember back at the start of this thread taking much flack.
I was selling a set of speakers when a guy showed up with a vintage tube amp that looked like junk to me. My first experience of a complete foil signal path amp all through the speakers. I was just shocked at how much better it sounded than my $10k pre amp and amp. (SS) So I begged him for it and he sold me the amp and I kept the speakers. (so started the thread)
The thread started with my wife listening to one speaker each of vintage foil caps vs. modern poly caps. She thought the difference was just amazing. The problem was she did not know which speaker was which and was picking the vintage caps!
What was going on I thought all new parts would be better???
Then the quest started to find better than the vintage foil caps and up the food chain I went to Mundorf then to Duelund VSF then CAST (tweeter caps)
In some cases the Duelund caps were MUCH better in some cases like the VSF in the midrange compared to vintage foil the difference was not shocking but they were consistently better. (I would rate the vintage between 11and 12 for the midrange)
I did listen to the vintage tube amp on modern speakers with a cheap poly based crossover, not good.
Now here we are again replacing a vintage power supply cap with a new Jensen electrolytic expecting improvement and getting the exact opposite!
I know some may laugh but I can not tell the Ampohm Copper foil cap from the vintage Alu foil in Mylar (polyester) I would rate the vintage coupling caps by Tony's ratings at 11+. (the vintage lack dynamics and bass of Jensen and Duelund but not tone)
Why do vintage power supply caps sound sooooooo much better? At least than the Jensen?
I feel this part might be THE most important part of all! I have thousands of $$$$ of Duelund parts and Silver wire after the $50 power supply cap and that ONE part can make it all sound like crap! |
Hooked the amp back up to main speakers.
One of biggest changes of any that I did was going from vintage power supply electrolytic cap to the Jensen.
I remember being stunned at the difference.
The biggest downgrade!
More than anything I have done.
This vintage amp that sounded good now sounds terrible! I thought it would get better in time but has not even after many hours in the bedroom system.
The Jensen is coming out and the 50 year old cap is going back in! I really wish I could get something better than these 50yr old caps or even as good just for safety reasons alone.
The Jensen is MUCH smaller than vintage and very dry sounding. (shrill and harsh) |
Here is one for you for blind test.
I hooked up the amp on test speakers before taking to the main speakers. I thought I hooked up the right channel to the Duelund and Jansen caps. There was almost no bass in the right channel compared to the very boomy bass in the left. I was not sure what was going on?
The right sounded good just no bass.
I have always cranked up the bass on the EL 84 and down the treble in the tone controls.
The first thing I did was peel off the bottom plate to see what was going on? The Duelund and Jensen were in the left channel and the boomy sounding bass was quickly corrected by taking the tone controls back to flat.
For the life of me I can not figure out Tony Gee cap review on the Ampohm Copper Foil caps? Assuming they sound the same as the rest of the family he talks about. He talks about them being more see through. Yes very light.
To me they have a total lack of bass. They sound exactly like vintage? I could not tell them from the vintage?
They are an excellent cap if one was doing a vintage amp and wanted it to sound exacty the same way.
More to follow. |
Just moved the Duelund VSF and Jensen Copper Tube coupling caps to an vintage EL 84 style amp with new Jensen Electrolytic cap in the power supply. Seeing if the results are the same in different types of amps.
EL 84 amp had lacked bass definition. (nice midrange though) The comparison will be against one vintage and one Ampohm Copper Foil cap that I tested before and sounded VERY close to vintage. I think caps should be tested in different syle amps.
The difference from vintage to the Jensen's was very big in the Fisher 500c.
The hope is to improve the dynamics and bass of the EL84 stlye amp while maintaining it's qualities.
I have one EL 84 amp with a ASC caps in the power supply. I am going to have to try that again.
SS power supply amp needs some work. (going in for service) It has starting making a popping noise when turning on and after the fire a long time ago if the amp is not 100% it gets fixed! |
Just doing some comparisons with the Jensen Copper paper tube vs. the Duelund VSF again. Duelund better bass sharper crisper less muffled even after a couple of years the difference is still very large.
I have never heard the CAST in electronics. I think I might have to try some. I did not get them before because of $$$ for small value caps. Duelund is more cost competitive in large value caps. |
Johnson, I am working with Paul on this and will clarify the actual arrangement of the 4 - 1500 uf caps and choke. |
Granny ring beware that 1500uf usually means high esr.
You don't need 4 caps in series unless you have 1200v B+.
Best is just 4 470 to 560uf arranged in a square quad ie both series and parallel to yield a composite cap of 560uf 900v. |
Hello Salectric,
My cap value is 5.6 uf, one per speaker(tweeter). I got a 20% discount.Those are the only capacitors in the crossover (fortunately for me).There are no resistors in the crossover.
Regards, |
Charles1dad,
What value CAST caps did you order? Were you able to use the values that PCX has on sale?
I haven't placed my order yet, but plan to do so soon. |
I have a "comparison box" that allows me to place resistors or capacitors in it a listen to their sound in my system. The box is placed between my pre and amp or between my cd and pre using IC's.
This way I can listen to the part with the total signal going through it in my system. I plan to do a careful listen to resistors as this is the next area I want to learn about. Do Duelund resistors sound the best? What about Vishay Nudes etc.....I will compare.
Stay tuned. |
Grannyring,I will follow your progress with much interest,I find this educational. I can`t wait to get my Duelund CAST crossover capacitors.
Regards, |
Hi Charles, no just a cost issue as I am replacing many resistors and the total cost starts to add up. I hope to really learn a great deal with this project and in the end have a $1500 amp that sounds like $10,000. Ha!
My next amp project will be to build a killer tube amp with Duelund parts, but I have much to learn. For this project, building a new power supply and changing out virtually every cap and resistor with sold quality Mills and Mundorf parts is enough. The amp's circuit and iron are OK, but not worthy of Duelund.
I am quite intrigued with what the end result will be. One can purchase a China made amp like my TAD 60 for under $400 new in China. Add another $650 in parts and I think I could have a very nice 50 watt stereo amp. The Bez amp company in China sells amps very, very low in price. One can buy 50 OtL monoblock amps for $1300. The build quality is good, but the parts are cheap. Great amps to learn on and modify.
My TAD 60 was made by the Bez Co., but it has many upgrades over their stock $400 amp. I will have to build a nice chassis extension out of wood to fit the much bigger film and big can caps. Fun stuff! |
Grannying,
Given you appreciation for Duelund products would their resistors be a good choice for your amplifier project? I understand they are much more affordable than the capacitors. Is their size an issue? You seem to be having much fun with your modifications.
Regards, |
Yes, I will be using some very large can Mallory caps for the upgraded power supply in my TAD 60 amp. I plan to use four 1500uf 450vdc caps in series. I will add a choke and regulator also.
I will also replace the coupling caps with Mundorf silver in oils. Key resistors will be replaced with Mills and Roderstein. Other caps will be replaced with Obbligato Gold.
This amp was made in China with decent iron and my upgrades should make this good sounding amp really sing. Decided to go this route rather than building an amp kit. I think in the end I will get better sound for time and dollars invested.
I am learning a great deal also and perhaps after this I can take on a bigger project.
I have not tried the Mundorf silver in oils and hope they sound as good as folks suggest. |
The supply caps to the output stage NEEDS to be big, as big as the tranny and rectifier diodes can handle.
A composite config of about 800V or higher tolerance is needed due to turn on spike.
Hardly anyone uses film for the output stage.
You need about 200uF for each pair of El34/6550/KT888 type tubes.
Driver and input/gain is different. Its the quality that counts. Figure 20-100uF. |
