Frederik,
Is treating the wire 'neccessary' or just an option to consider is what I reaaly want to know.
Regards, |
Charles,
I may have put that wrong - What I meant was, if you decide to do something, my advice would be a simple solderable lacquer.
Hope that helps.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Hi Frederik,
I don`t feel any particular need. If you say it`s fine to keep the CAST wire bare without any concern that`s fine with me. I was just looking for experienced guidance(to get it right the first time).
Regards, |
Charles,
If you feel the need I would use a solderable lacquer.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Grannyring,
Thanks for the suggestions.
Frederik,you make these capacitors, what do you do with the bare copper leads?
Regards, |
Charles, I was talking to a well respected builder and he suggested that one can hear the skin effect caused when the surface of exposed copper wire becomes corroded. He pointed out that heat shrink does not keep air out and the copper may still corrode.
So the point is whatever you decide make sure the wire is properly covered to prevent air exposure. If you decide to clip the cap wire, then the wire you are using should be coated properly already.
Some use rubber paint, nail polish, urathane etc the cover the wire before covering with heat shrink.
Hope this helps.... |
Hi Bob,
You`re welcome over to my place anytime.Perhaps this will finally get your hibernating Duelund CAST out of the closet and you`ll put them to work in those fine speakers you have.
Regards, |
Charles, I'll give you something else to think about; what kind of solder is JWM going to use? Remember, everything matters. Yuk, yuk!
Of course, you're going to have to invite me over after you get some time on them. |
Grannyring,
A good friend will install them in a few days. Thanks for the advice.
Regards, |
Charles, I would not clip the leads and suggest simply heat shrinking over the leads. Are you doing the job? |
Well the Duelund CAST are in my posession at last. They are big,round and solid,much larger and heavier than the standard Auricaps. They`ll be installed later this week and I`ll post very early impressions,can`t wait.
Regards,
Frederik, the CAST leads are quite ample(long and heavy gauge copper) but bare wire.Will copper oxide accumulation be an issue?I do have some 16 gauge siver wire if needed.
Regards, |
Oeaohoo,
Glad everything worked out. :)
Best regards,
Frederik |
Eugene,
The Bel Canto is the DAC2..ancient by today's standards but extremely musical and spacious..the DAC3 was deemed better because of it's greater resolution and dynamics..I haven't heard one but I imagine it's another fantastic sounding converter..
The V-Cap CuTFs are really nice caps..I had the 0.068uf value in the Almarro for some time. They are slightly warmer/fuzzier than the Duelunds and even though they're quite linear and neutral they're nowhere near as natural or tonally correct sounding like the CAST..the CAST are the closest thing you'll get to "No Caps" or "straight wire"
The CAST currently in are 0.1uf and fit easily..the orientation is front to back rather than side to side like most caps and you don't have to worry about polarity..
How does the Havana compare to the old Bel Cantos..does it possess any of the warmth of the BC DACs?? |
Oeaohoo, curious which Bel Canto DAC you are using? I used to have the DAC3, two of them in fact. Very nice sounding indeed.
I also have the A205A Mk II and love that little thing. Currently using V-Cap CuTF 0.068 uF, which transformed it into something really great. Yesterday I replaced the CuTF output coupling caps in my MHDT Havana DAC with Duelund CAST Cu and am really enjoying the sound, not even broken in. I'm considering changing up the caps in the Almarro with CAST 0.047 sometime in the future. They cost more than double the teflon V-Caps, though! How is the fit? |
Finally! UPS will deliver my Duelund CAST capacitors on 11/19/12.Of course I`m very curious to hear how/if they change my speakers(original cap is Auricap) and the overall impact on my system.
Regards, |
Wow..Thanks for all the responses guys..
First off, Frederik I reversed the absolute polarity at the speaker terminals and though it did recess the soundstage a tad, it was at the expense of a smearing in the mids and a wrong sounding bass. So I reverted back to normal phase..
Grannyring thanks for your input as well..have followed your postings in other threads..much appreciated..Yes meat on the bones is what I'm on about and I believe the Duelunds are very source dependent..so your sources are probably spot on..
This follows on to what Volleyguy was saying about the Duelund caps showing up faults upstream..
Volleyguy firstly with regards to the Ampohms I was very aware of their mid-centric nature so I ended up getting higher value caps of the order of a factor of 4X or 5X..so instead of the .047uf I ended up with .22uf which shifted the sweet spot down into the lower frequencies giving a more balanced sound..I ended up with a more mellow sound with a stronger but alas flabbier base..
So this brings me to the Duelunds. As I mentioned in my opening post I had changed DACs at roughly the same time as I changed to Duelunds. Initially and after break-in, and while I still had the Ampohms in the Almarro, I sensed a reduced soundstage but better frequency extension with the new Minimax DAC..
However once the Duelunds went in the signature of the Minimax DAC became more pronounced..its mechanical nature with sharper attack and greater pace became apparent and the Duelunds presented this in the most honest fashion..
So to give the Duelunds another + different source, and one I was fairly familiar with, I reverted back to the Bel Canto DAC..the tube compliment in the Almarro was also restored to the same set I had listened to over a couple of years with the Ampohm caps (Sylvania EL84 + RCA 7025 black plates), the tube dampers and isolation went back in..everything back to the way it was..
Well guess what? well you don't have to as you probably already know..the 'body' was back. A full-bodied holographic soundstage was there in abundance..
Yes the over-sampling DAC is not the last word in resolution but it portrays emotion, gestalt, tone like few other DACs..
So there you go the Duelunds are the most honest caps I've ever heard..make sure you've got your sources sorted and the CAST will give you that in spades..
Chadeffect you were right about the CAST letting in more character but it wasn't the Amp's but the DAC's..
The Almarro SEP is a great amp in stock form but having such a short signal path it's very amenable to cap rolling and it can be voiced uniquely with a change of caps..
Jon L on Audiocircle and Head-Fi has the same amp and he has rolled and documented more caps than anyone..you can find his excellent thread here;
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=54218.0
So I'm back to the OS Bel Canto DAC..don't know if I'm game on Opamp rolling the Minimax.. I have some Burson Discretes waiting to go into it..but I'm going to put that on hold while I get more enjoyment out of the Duelunds, and clear my back-log of new + required listening CDs.. |
I'm with volleyguy1. Oeaohoo, are you sure the forwardness is not just a characteristic of the Almarro?
I have tried the Almarro as standard (new and non modded) and in my system it demonstrated a wiry and white sound.
I wonder if the more natural cap has just let through more of this character? Maybe you need to voice the amp with a darker or fatter sounding cap?
I find the duelund VST and cast to be exquisite caps which don't alter in tone that much as they burn in. Sure they get better, but I found they opened up rather than changed in EQ balance tilt. |
Oeaohoo
quote
" The haze I feel contributed to a fuller sound by masking the details.."
Have you heard both caps in real time? The resonance you talk about with Ampohm is not in any way even across all frequencies. The fullness is in the middle upper frequencies masking all other frequencies. A high resonance cap like vintage Vishay Ero or Ampohm are adding to the signal but they do not make all frequencies fuller. To me that would be more livable.
I have mentioned in many posts the CAST are not forgiving. I lost about 1/3 of my vinyl when the CAST tweeter caps went in. You could hear groove wear as plain as day. Is this CAST's fault? Is it CAST's fault that a loudness war CD will sound terrible?
I do understand what you are saying though as I owned an older Linn LP12 and traded it off on a VPI. My brain knew the VPI had less resonance but my heart missed the energy and soul of the LP12. I bought another more modern LP12. That your choice of caps before was Ampohm says what you like. The Clarity paper did say 30% of people like high resonance caps.
This thread was done so that one could have an idea of what to expect of caps when you spend your $$$.
If one wants EVERYTHING to sound nice get VSF. Zero downside in my mind! That is why I am sounding out the amp with a possible mixture of VSF and CAST.
I still may end up all CAST but am not afraid to add a VSF to the mix. A flawed cap by comparison but nice flaws.
I would not describe CAST as forward though. Direct, dynamic and accurate maybe?
To be fair to the CAST put on some high quality recording of real instruments and listen in real time vs. the Ampohms. I bet you will REALLY hear the faults of Ampohms. You have went to polar extremes! going from Ampohms to CAST.
In doing these tests I bought several amps started changing caps in the worst sounding amp till it sounded wayyyyy better (even with Jensen) then the best sounding stock vintage and left one side in one EL 84 amp original till just now to go back and revisit. There is nothing better about it anymore no memory nostalgia.
Try going back and forth if you can and report back. I bet you will be frustrated with high resonance now you have heard ultra low. |
Oeaohoo
I have a fair bit to say about what you have said but am off to work now.
You need to compare the Ampohm vs. CAST in real time if you can? I have Ampohm and have done so against VSF. The Ampohm (which I like in a way) are exactly like the vintage Vishay ERO and if one wants to maintain a vintage tone they are great for that in a guitar amp I am sure as well.
There is one cap I have mentioned many times that always sounds nice but for some reason is falling out of favour. The VSF is vastly superior to Ampohm and still has some resonance that some will like. Remember the Clarity paper had 30% of people liking high resonance caps.
Is it the CAST's fault that a poorly recorded CD will sound like crap? The VSF are far more forgiving. You need to hear the HUGE dynamic difference from CAST to Ampohm. Ampohm is all resonance sound added and you do pay a big price. I disagree with Tony' ranking on the Ampohm because of its clear flaws. Complete lack of bass in comparison.
More on this later have to go. |
Thus far I have put Duelund CAST caps in my preamp, and three tube amps. Each time the improvement was absolutely revelatory. The music always maintained great tone, texture and body. I must have meat on the bones and the CAST do this in spades while being so transparent. That is a hard thing to do based on my experience.
All of this after break in of at least 100 hours, perhaps more depending on the gear it is placed in. I never used them in a source or DAC. Perhaps in that position it will take longer based on lower voltages? Just a guess.
Give it some more time..... |
Oeaohoo,
I do mean phase/polarity. I can offer no technical explanation, but I find the change to be much more profound when done at speaker level by physically switching the loudspeaker cables. You might try it, when the sound seems forward. |
Charles + Frederik, thanks for your replies.
Firstly, Charles I agree with you and your interpretations of Volleyguy's findings. The Duelunds are very much highly resolving caps letting you see deeper into the recording..with them I can almost tell you what colour the sound engineer's undies were at time of the recording..
Yes the tone is there as well but body perhaps not..I may have a different interpretation of body, for me it implies resonance and reverberation..not only the reverberating wooden body of a string instrument as such but the gestalt wholeness of the music with all its interplays.
Under pure and optimally damped recording conditions you should only hear the instruments and their respective bodies..but often in most live settings, one's I'm used to, you will here all sorts of resonance and reverberation..some may also call it distortion as well.. but it's inherently and ubiquitously present and has been part of the natural way music has been experienced for decades...
As for listening purely to studio or electronically generated recordings then I agree you should only hear what's been recorded, signal preservation as you properly called it. However here again I'm more inclined to a softer less resolving sound.. I do a lot of listening a day..in access of 12 hours sometimes, and often to poorly recorded CDs and the highly compressed one's of late
as well. So I don't necessarily want to hear 'everything' put on a CD..especially if it happens to be a direct product of the 'loudness wars'..
I feel we all have slightly different takes on what may be optimal to our ears..one man's natural might be another's strident..and someone's warm might be perceived as hazyiness to another..I might not even have properly tuned and balanced hearing so all objective interpretation of what I hear would be misplaced..
Anyway all this might be taking away from the Duelunds..they are certainly unique sounding caps..the resolution and tone is by far the best in class but I'm probably missing the inaccuracy and distortion of the sound I've been acclimatised to over the years..perceived as body/fullness etc.
Frederik, if by absolute polarity you mean phase..? then the Minimax DAC has a phase switch which I have tried..it has helped on some recordings but I've generally felt it only marginally affected the sound. I haven't tried reversing the wires on the speakers.. I also have some lower efficiency ProAcs I will blow the dust off and hook up when my Tinnitus subsides..
I do want to give the Duelunds a fair chance of break-in and extended re-balancing and integration within the system or within a system that suits better.. |
Oeaohoo,
If you get a more forward sound with the CAST, have you tried changing absolute polarity on the speaker? CAST makes that a lot more clear, and wrong absolute polarity would create a forward presentation.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Oeaohoo,
Interesting observations, but different conclusion from volleyguy. In volleyguy`s experience it seems he heard'more' body,tone and subtle detail and improved resolution. Superior resonance supression in a capacitor is a good thing that should`nt affect the sound in a negative(less musical fashion)way.Most comments I`ve read regarding the Duelund CAST say truer organic tone but no addition of false warmth or weight( more complete signal preservation?)and increased sense of naturalness are consistent findings. Might there be exceptions? Volleyguy cites formerly hidden and vague noises in a recording actually being heard as clear and individual instruments as revealed by the CAST caps,this is desirable and an improvement.
Regards, |
Volleyguy, first off thank you for all your efforts and analysis in evaluating the Duelund caps..
Secondly in response to the above..I believe that it's the mind that does the responding to the volume whereas the eardrum responds to the amplitude/dynamics..here's why..
I'd been breaking in the Duelund Cast caps in my Almarro A205A MkII integrated tube amp for the past 3 or so weeks..I'd probably logged a couple of hundred hours so far..
My initial impressions were of a much reduced noise floor and a resultantly less full presentation..by that I mean less distortion, a blacker background..and consequently less haze. The haze I feel contributed to a fuller sound by masking the details..
Coming from Ampohm PIOs, and other similar caps, this was a sound I'd never heard before in caps, even with V-Caps. The Ampohms gave me that fuller euphonic sound, no doubt due to the increased inherent resonance and consequent haze.
However the Duelunds were a complete transformation. At first I couldn't work out why I had reduced volume..the music was there in abundance but there was no fullness to it..to compensate I kept on turning the volume up trying to get that, what I initially thought, was a richer sound I'd had with the Ampohms. This eventuated with me listening, at prolonged times, at pretty high dB levels >100db.
Probably not the wisest thing and I ended up with Tinnitus in one ear approximately a week ago and its still there..
This is were I reasoned that the dynamic punch or increased amplitude was the probable culprit and when I came on here to see what you and others had been finding, it pretty much confirmed what I had suspected.
So the eardrum paid the price for what the mind had been accustomed to and was lacking ie. perceived volume.
I am unsure whether with further break-in the Duelunds will change much. I'm inclined to think not..their characteristic low resonating clarity is pretty much nailed on..but is this a sound I'm content with??
In addition I went through pretty much another similar change recently. Going from a high jitter DAC in the Bel Canto to the sabre-chipped '0 jitter' asynced EE Minimax DAC+..same increase in resolution at the expense of a hazier, more forgiving sound..and I was divided between those two quite different presentations. I eventually settled on the Minimax as I felt I'd give something different a go.
Now with the Duelunds in the mix I believe I've got too much of a similar thing going and I believe I've lost the balance/synergy..
In the Almarro I've tried all manner of different tubes, both signal and power..Mullards, Amperexes, RCAs etc. and have finally settled on GE oval plate EL84s and a Mullard long plate 12AX7 to tame the sound..two of the warmer sounding tubes in their class.
So were am I with the sound? I'm willing to give the Duelunds a little more time to break-in and I hope they get a lttle warmer and perhaps a little less forward..
However it's more likely I'll be back to the Ampohms for a more balanced system.. We'll see and will report back in time. For now will have to give the ears a break to come to their senses.. |
Break in should be near done.
When listening in stereo the mind focuses on the channel with the CAST.
When the balance goes back and forth the CAST side has (as Frederik mentioned) less amplitude.
Interesting. Does the mind focus on dynamics over volume? |
Jwm,
All too familiar... ;) |
Barrysandy
I would say people knew about capacitors different sounds far before 1980. In the vintage amps I have better quality caps were used in key places in the 50's and 60's. West German Vishay ERO's used over generic caps in key spots.
A Marantz 7c has beefy caps and almost for sure not co-incidence. |
How about some good Cab. wine at NFS room in the Flamingo Hotel. Are you familiar with Anton and the NFS room. |
Jwm,
I plan to. I take it you mean early next year?
I'm not exhibiting as such. We walk the halls to talk to visit business partners and the like. Anyone up for a coffee - or stonger, I'm all for it.
My participating is not set in stone as my wife is due February 24th.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Duelund will you be at CES this year? |
Re the family discount, I think you should try taking that idea to Parts Connexion. |
Ya, my speaker has 8 caps per speaker on the highs and mids. Can we get a family discount? Ha! I had to use Mundorf silver, gold and oil (SGO's) They sound good, but not a CAST. |
Jwm,
Certainly, ;)
You'd start by the Series ones on tweeter and mid.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Frederik, Charles is lucky he has only One cap per speaker. What happens if you have 15 caps in each speaker. Do you have family discounts. |
Frederik your Danglish is excellent.
When in stereo the CAST cap dominates and overpowers the others. Yet when balance control is used to shift signal side to side the CAST speaker has less amplitude. The cap dominates through dynamics.
My feeling on CAST is the same as when used in the speakers they are less forgiving than VSF. VSF sound flatter, duller, softer less dynamic and less alive but always nice. CAST crisp, dynamic, very lively and crystal clear. CAST will not make a poorly recorded CD sound nice. CAST are more source sensitive or maybe a better way to say it source revealing.
(over half way through break-in is my guess) |
Charles1dad,
You're welcome, it's our fault to begin with. |
This is a public thanks to Frederik for helping me out.
My CAST caps will ship next week.
Vollyguy, you`ve gotten me so geeked, credit to grannyring also.I can`t wait to get them installed in my speakers.
Regards, |
Hi Frederik,
In case my email fails that I sent you.
I ordered 1 pair of CAST 5.6muf ceossover caps from the Parts ConneXion in Canada.Date AUG. 10th 2012. is when they sent the order.I actually placed the order at the end of july.
Regards |
Volleyguy,
"Sounds are sounds not blurr."
That's what I was trying to say in my best Danglish...
;) |
Charles1dad,
Please mail me the types you've ordered and from which dealer,
info@duelundaudio.com
Just to check, nothing is wrong. It shouldn't be 11 weeks.
Best regards,
Frederik |
I placed the CAST caps in my newly acquired Music Reference RM9 tube amp. I placed 4 of the .22uf caps. They replaced the stocked Wondercaps.
The caps had some break in before I installed them and the improvement was significant. More open, transparent with voice and instruments sounding more like they should and live.
The only difficult thing was the fact they would not fit in the amp. I had to place them in an external wooden box. Not ideal, but the mod sounds wonderful. |
Volleyguy,
Reading your description of the CAST capacitor is inspiring.I can`t wait to get my pair of CAST for my tweeter crossovers.Come on Duelund,I`ve been waiting over 11 weeks already!
Regards, |
I have installed a Duelund VSF alongside the CAST removing the vintage cap for better testing. (not a big change less tizzy maybe over the vintage plus more bass)
One channel
CAST and VSF
other channel
Jensen Copper Paper Tube and VSF.
I would like to go two CAST vs. two VSF but that will take some surgery. CAST are huge!
In the posts I had done from a couple of years ago Duelund had warned me difference from going from VSF to CAST would not be like going from vintage to VSF. It seemed logical I was already very high up the scale.
To a big surprise to me it was a bigger difference!
In electronics..... Well exactly the same thing.
CAST is a different animal than any other cap.
Frederik had mentioned Steen's goal of less "out-of-phase resonance anomalies" giving less amplitude. Yes and no. In going from channel to channel at the same volume it is quieter yet more dynamic with the CAST. So you notice the CAST much more. Sounds are sounds not blurr.
I noticed this clearly in the tweeter. Noise was WAY down clarity or volume of high freq. up.
The technical superiority of CAST is beyond a doubt. What does "out of phase resonance do"? Blurrs sound but can smooth or soften.
The difference is shocking. CAST is soooo accurate and literal. If you are looking for tizzy some might call it "air" better look elsewhere. Out of phase resonance in my mind can warm or dull a voice and blurr and greatly reduce all dynamics.
I have for a long time thought CAST would be "THE" cap for the phono stage. I ended up trying VCap Cuft there and cost was the reason. (before these new prices) |
Volleyguy,
Duelund used to describe part of his idea for the CAST to delete out-of-phase resonance anomalies - his take was that these would blur/lower/delete actual information on the record by virtue of being out of phase. This would of course in some way result in perceived less amplitude, as you would need to up the volume to make out small details.
I should stress, this is not something we can measure, but Steen was often very much one to take on a more philosophical approach and do listening tests, when he felt regular measuring available to him, couldn't take him further.
Frederik |
Most people, 4 years ago? Maybe. Just a reminder that the first technical "Picking Capacitors" article by Richard Marsh & Walt Jung appeared in Audio magazine in August 1980.
This thread certainly continues to have a high interest level for all of us so keep up the good work! |
Charles1dad
I have not read this very long thread in a long time! (went back to what I said ages ago)
I can say the CAST has not behaved the same for break-in for electronics as crossover. I have no idea why?
Crossover CAST started dark and opened up and in electronics CAST were bright and stiff dynamic and agressive and are rapidly quieting down. I am curious to how things settle?
I did read and had forgot I ordered CAST for my midrange but ended up with VSF and took them. (I was semi Ok but slightly disapointed at the time as the $ on CAST parts was just a little crazy to me) It is interesting (even if sometimes I wish I could delete some posts) to go back and read what one said years later. I had forgot I got rid of a pile of vinyl after the CAST tweeter caps went in. You could hear vinyl wear like child's play.
Anyone who reads this thread please remember even 4 years ago passive parts were not thought to be important by most people. I just ordered a VSF tweeter cap (recomended by someone on this forum) saying what the heck it is only $150 or so. |
I would not call it HiFi ... Natural aggressive and tight. Overpowering the other caps.
My CAST tweeter caps took a couple weeks to break-in the were tight out of the box. VSF sounded good right out of the box and got better.
All that being said the CAST is quieting down and sounding more like it's brother (VSF) all the time.
When you do get your CAST (since end of July?) expect two weeks before you have a full idea of how they sound. The change is very big but at least it is quick! |
Volleyguy,
Does the dynamic character you describe sound artificial and hifi? In reading about the CAST the one common agreed upon factor(that got me interested) was its sheer natural sound and presentation. Some said this is apparent brand new out of the box.It`s possible that the audible effects of break -in varies among different users and systems.
If I ever get mine(ordered in late july!) I guess I`ll find out once they`re in my speaker crossovers.
Regards, |
Charles1dad
The CAST is clearly in the break in phase. The sound in stereo favored the speaker with the CAST with a BIG tilt in volume and dynamics to that speaker. I do not want to put to much into this phase as memory serves me that the CAST needed a couple week break-in. The CAST is getting softer with break-in but was very stiff when brand new like no other cap. The VSF did not have a stiff sound brand new.
I had heard so much about VCap break in but they were nothing like the CAST break-in which showed great promise at the same time as a big hardness to the sound. (initial moments)
To be honest it concerned me at first. I liked the increased dynamics but do not want a punishing sound to get it. The sound in the cap changes by the hour? |
