Can we finally put Reel to Reel out of its misery? Put it to rest people.
The format is dying and too expensive to repair properly. Heads wear out so easy and many out there are all worn. High quality technicians are either retired or long gone. Its such an inconvenient format that can be equalled by nakamichi easily in tape decks. Retire it please put them in museums.
I thought that having MiniDiscs and DCCs laying around was perverted enough, but you guys are making me consider Elcasettes.
Now, when R2R technicians are allegedly not impossible to find, does any of you know a technician that would dive into fixing one of the Unitra (Grundig license) machines? I do not think it is even broken but if someone would give it a clean bill of health, I may revisit some old tapes. Wish You Were Here and such.
So the OP and other members of his cult are out to “cleanse” the world of technologies they personally find inconvenient. How thoughtful of them! ?!? Yup, I hope that type of people never get the chance. Next thing, all “non-essential” activities would be banned in their utopia.
Sony Elcaset? Far more obsolete than RtR! "The system was technically excellent, but a total failure in the marketplace.." "No pre-recorded Elcaset tapes were produced and the machines were withdrawn from the market after only a few years. When Sony pulled the Elcaset from the market in 1980, the remaining equipment was sold off in Finland for bargain prices." https://obsoletemedia.org/elcaset/
I am not saying that anything should go away. I am merely pointing out that the OP has NOT made the case for putting R2R "out of its misery" and that if there is any logic at all to his argument, it cuts against cassettes because they do not excel in either convenience or sound quality while R2R DOES excel at sound quality.
I don't currently maintain either tape formats, but, I certainly don't want either to go away. I think it is great that people are happy with whatever they are happy with, I know some people still love 8-track; to each, his own. I like, and use gear that is truly ancient--tubes that are 60 years old, and a midrange compression driver that is 80 years old.
I’m generalizing but - at least for me - cassettes sound rich, natural, dynamic, sweet, have more sparkle and presence compared directly to their CD counterparts, which sound thin, compressed, synthetic, bland and uninteresting. Cassettes are portable, too! Is the world deaf?
Really Larry? Your post is as inane as the original OP. Can you expound on why, in your opinion of course, cassette should be " put out of its misery"?
I never realized it was in pain and suffering tbh but hey I am all ears ( sic).
8 track for me is a non-starter just because program material is often interrupted. And when I did have an 8 track player I didn't think it sounded that good...
...and then there is the fact that tape press-back mechanism inside the tapes can be a problem. Either a piece of metal with felt on it or the worst is the foam-based resistance provider. The foam just turns to tar eventually...
Cassettes are fine. I grew up with them. They sound alrightish. I remember realizing as a kid that tapes made from vinyl always sounded better than tapes made from CD.
I've had pro console machines from Ampex to Crown to Otari, and home machines from Teac, Tascom, and Revox. Tape is a wonderful sounding medium. Even on my auto-reverse home Teac 4070, the commercial release of the Verdi Requiem on Columbia (Ormandy, Philadelphia Orchestra, Westminiter Choir, Maureen Forrester, Richard Tucker) sounds better than the same recording on SACD, and that in turn sounds better than the CD version.
Yes, R2R is inconvenient, expensive to maintain and repair, expensive to get high quality pre-recorded tape, expensive to buy blank tapes, etc., but, there is a reason for it sticking around--it offers superb sound. The OP seems to favor cassette and elcaset as better options. Really? The only benefit to either is convenience and portability, and on those fronts, digital machines are vastly superior and sound better too. If any medium should be "put out of its misery" it would be the cassette (elcaset was stillborn so it needs no euthanasia).
Let's see. Can we finally put vinyl out of its misery? Put to rest, people! The format is dying and too expensive to repair properly. Styli wear out so easy and many out there are all worn. High quality turntable technicians are either retired or long gone. Its such an inconvenient format that can be equalled by nakamichi easily in tape decks. (Q: when was the last year that Nakamichi manufactured a pro cassette deck? Note: I owned a Nak 1000 for many years...) Retire it please put them in museums.
I guess vinny's not a fan; I had a RtoR for years, and would again if I could afford it!
@uberwaltz. I’m actually on the Central Coast Of CA but have deep ties to the Gulf Coast. And yeah, we’re kind of behind the times here (my dentist doesn’t have a computer 😳), which might explain my luck finding media. Lots of retired folks around. Pioneer made zillions of RT-701/7s, so parts haven’t been a problem either. Hell, my tech has three of them laying around just in case!
Average consumers will consume anything that is average thinking that it is good. Audiophiles are not that.
Average is for Normal.
As for R-2-r vs digital, digital has a severe and so far unfixable analog to digital conversion issue, a fundamental issue -that is seldom realized or known at all - by the adherents of digital vs the adherents of analog.
Analog to digital converters are fundamentally screwt, and cannot record a signal correctly. The end.
R2R, on the other hand, is virtually perfect, re this fundamental problem that ALL A/D has.
R2R, is big, clunky, almost messy..but it works. It really really works. Digital is cleaner, nicer, more neat freak simpleton-ish friendly. But it fails in the fundamentals.
So..work vs no work, and analog wins here, if fundamental operational correctness is the desire. Digital is a car that won't start but fakes the dance, like the bear....very nicely, for those who don't pay too close an attention to what is actually going on. As in a average, or normal.
This is not about normal or average and never was and never will be. This is about perfection in all critical areas, and in areas little noted and little understood by Mr and ms average.
@florida71. I too have an rt701 amongst others, excellent deck at 7.5ips, built like a proverbial tank. Just a one year model although just about everything is common with the rt707 fortunately.
I assume from handle you are in Florida.
Likewise but sure as heck cannot find any affordable media around my area. Seems everyone around here is well aware of the r2r resurgence and is priced accordingly.
I’ve had no problem getting my RT-701 worked on. Likewise, I score reasonably-priced RTR tape all the time—at estate sales, vinyl record shops, on Craigslist, from hi-fi pals... And I live in the sticks. RTR is so much fun, and no cassette player can touch it soundwise (and I love cassettes!) So that makes you what? Wrong.
I've never owned a reel to reel, my friend has 2 refurbished ones and loves them, and can get them easily repaired...on the other hand, why bother worrying what gear other people like...
I own three RTR's, two are Teacs, one is the Akai GX-636. I enjoy the process of threading the tape (I worked in computers years ago when tape drives were commonplace), and the sound to me is still preferable in many aspects to some formats (FM for one, sometimes digital, although that medium has cleaned up its act a lot). Maintaining the heads by regularly cleaning them and demagnetizing them goes a long way toward avoiding performance issues. I think it's amazing that machines designed and built 40 years ago or more can still render music that can be enjoyed with a little effort and look very cool while doing it.
I think people want the format to die because they don’t want to make the effort to get involved with it and they don’t want their ‘audiophile status’ in question because they don’t want to go that extra mile...
and I totally understand those feelings
I made the commitment to tape after hearing a tape-based setup at AXPONA 2018. That setup was a custom refurbished 15 ips player with a Jeff Rowland amplifier...if I am not mistaken. I had never heard anything as magical and transparent as that. It was breathtaking.
Is my setup that good. Nope! But it’s also probably 1/10 of the cost, more appropriate for my room, but provides 90%-95% of that magic.
7 1/2 and even some 3 3/4 tape can accomplish a sense of cohesion and that oh so special ‘vanishing act’ more readily than other mediums. (And by vanishing act I mean your system disappears and it feels like the air itself is producing music.)
What is the point of this thread? Don't you think everyone should decide for themselves what audio format they like and use? A format usually "dies" when there is no demand for it anymore - you can call it "audio evolution" ...
At United Home Products, in Virginia, I heard several rebuilt and highly modified machines (they specialize in rebuilding Technics, Otari and Tascam machines). They have some Tape Project pre-recorded tapes, but, their favorite use of tape machines is to make recordings from LPs. They don't do this to preserve LPs, rather, they contend that LPs sound better after being re-recorded on tape. I heard the comparison and I don't quite agree, although I can see why some might prefer the taped version. The sound is smooth, open and beautiful sounding after being re-taped, but, I thought it lost a bit of dynamics and the hard edge to the initial attack of some instruments. Still, really good pre-recorded tapes sounded terrific.
I know that companies associated with The Tape Project also modify machines, offer better electronics, etc. (e.g., Bottlehead makes tube electronics for tape machines). I have also heard a re-built Studer machine with custom electronics from Doshi and the tapes I heard on it were fantastic. High speed reel tape has an open top end that is so extended without being harsh or edgy that one does not hear elsewhere.
I will never own a tape machine because of the extreme inconvenience in threading tape, rewinding, re-spooling tape when it spills, splicing breaks, etc. It is not for me, but, I don't deny that well recorded reel to reel is something special.
I sold my old Teac A 5300 I purchased in S.E. Asia. I kind of miss it. I saved my 7" reels of good music and I'm thinking about getting another player for them. It's hard to find one in great shape and repair is difficult but I may keep looking. And streaming is so easy, I'm a little spoiled, and lazy. BTW, I really appreciate this site, I'm new at this and I've gotten some terrific advice. Thanks all.
@vinny55 Um.... no. I was a Nak dealer back in the day, and have owned multiple decks, including the Dragon. Yes, they are glorious. Vastly better than most cassette decks.
And yes, parts are a problem.
But no, they do not equal a Revox with a good source tape. I worked with a Revox shop that did live field recordings years. A half track at 15ips is the best analog source I have ever heard. Turntables included.
Seems as audiophiles we’re all on the fringes anyway in terms of our own obsessions with sound quality and musical enjoyment (not a passion shared/appreciated by the majority of the public). I think it’s great that there are so many options that one can explore (new/vintage formats alike). For me it has always been making a connection with the music - in that pursuit there are many paths to audio Nirvana, let reel-to-reel tape be one of them.
If there is one thing this thread has accomplished so far is to show that a fair number of members have the polar opposite view of the OP.
Plenty here have revealed that they have actually moved INTO the r2r world with many stating purchased used r2r machines at fair prices in full working order.
It's not mainstream and never will be and is not for those without patience or time. There will be repairs or tune ups required along the way.
But the sonic rewards are well worth it imho.
I just wish the market for used original recorded r2r music was not quite so "buoyant" as it is. Routine actual selling prices of $50 plus for popular titles is not fun at all.
Picked up a very gently used Akai GX-635D last year, had a tech go through it top to bottom. It sounds simply glorious, came with several reels of very well made recordings. I don’t think the format is dead, I think popularity will continue to reinvigorate, not only due to vynil, but it also looks cool, and on a slightly weird note - hot oil mixed with tape dust produces fascinating smell, the very smell of analog!
I don’t have anywhere near the patience (and likely budget) for reel2reel, but super envious of anyone who does. The one time I got to hear a good reel2reel I was amazed... a whole step beyond the great digital and vinyl also in the setup. I wish I could un-hear it and just grumpily agree with the OP.
So, is this a bad time for me to reveal my plans to market a vacuum tube based 8 track machine with dubbing from AM radio and optional 12Vdc power supply?
"Revox is/has building/built a new R2R in 2017..."
This is puzzling, but not that much. If such thing had actually been produced, ReVox somehow forgot to mention it on their website. Not in the news from 2016 or 2017, not in the history of their tape machines.
Internet has many pictures of 2017 ReVox tape recorder. All of them on some enthusiast websites or YouTube channels. Nothing solid, though. No review of a machine that would be expected to be eagerly awaited. No real pictures. Nothing.
Better check it out before you declare R2R deceased.
which implied that those companies would prove R2R alive and thriving. However, both of them have abandoned the format. It might have been an unfortunate example that you picked which, in effect, solidified the impression that R2R is practically dead on any significant scale. Kind of "See these powerhouses of R2R. Ooooops, they do not want to have anything to do with R2R."
When it comes to digital vs. analog, it is not even the point of this thread although it got slid in as "tape is great while digital is bad". Along with "digital is garbage and real musician would tell you". It was also an imperfect example as many, if not most, of the real musicians do not seem to spend much time thinking about it. Of course, it depends on one’s definition of "real musician" and sample size used. Admittedly, my "real musician" sample is small.
I have nothing against R2R (I actually grew up with it being my primary source of music for a while), but it is a niche product for nostalgic people. It may sound better to one’s ears, but thriving format it is not. One manufacturer does not make a renaissance.
In one of the responses yes a German company Ballfinger is producing new R2R , they are pricey 11,000 - 24,000 US SO IF YOU HAVE THE CASH YOU CAN HAVE A GREAT MACHINE WITH ALL UPDATED COMPONENTS.. or if you really wont to get into R2R format you can purchase a VINTAGE R2R in great condition for 700.00 - 1600.00 i picked up a teac x10R made some updates with NEW ORIGINAL-PARTS belts , heads , capstan rollers AND A FEW OTHER COSMETIC PIECES total investment 900.00 and 2 years later never missed a note
@glupson As I wrote in the second post, of course some of these R2R manufacturers are making digital products today. I don't see hundreds of successful buggy whip manufacturers around any more, so keeping up with technology is clearly key to staying in business.
The point I was trying to make is, just like any technology, there is digital and then there is DIGITAL, where the most accurate and highest quality digital equipment can be manufactured at high cost. Someone has to be the best at this technology; I really don't think your ipod or whatever quite meets that standard, and many here pay huge prices for what are marketed as super-high-quality digital components.
They get to hear their digital recordings played back on the best possible equipment available, and if the recording was done with an equal level of quality digital equipment and recording engineers who are knowledgeable about that process, you are going to hear digital at its best.
Doesn't mean it is "better" than analog; it is simply different. A favorite analogy of mine concerns "electronic" drums and "Hammond B-3 Chips."
They are both used in the recording studio and in live concerts. Do they sound anything like "real" drums or a "real" B-3? Of course not. BUT, they imitate those instruments and provide their own unique sound. If the composer wants that sound, they use those digital instruments. If they want the original sound, they use the original instruments. No right or wrong here, just preferences. Now, if you are thinking that your digital instruments DO sound like the originals, that is where we have an issue. You need a better education or a better ear, I guess.
Revox is/has building/built a new R2R in 2017 and Ballfinger M063 is a new R2R tape recorder out and in shops. R2R are not on their way out but rather on their way back in! http://www.ballfinger.de/tape-recorder-m-063 BTW I just got a beautiful Technics RS1500US, and see and heard a regain of interest for these old things. Tape is the new vinyl! Soon your cassettes will be back into game again. Perfectly happy going back and forth between analogue and digital.
There are 101 reasons to choose digital over tape, but audio quality is not one of them.
Even here, many will agree that digital is a close second to reel, but in the dark silence of late night audio, when audiophiles are at their keenest perception of what is, and what is not, is when reels reign supreme; they breathe life into music.
If you own a R2R , cassette players teac and other Japanese MFG THERE is a service center that has all original parts ( heads , belts, hardware, cosmetic components and remotes snd much more even manuals Techician and owners ,,, if you won’t just put your item in google and you will find it.. i needed a head , meter and a solenoid for my wife’s wollensak 8 track player 8075 and I found it all new pieces
LOVED my Teac X-7R!....If It were a car, it would’ve been one of those Volvos in the old Popular Mechanics magazine ads that racked up 7 figures of miles. It went in the shop a couple of times more than I’d have preferred toward the end of its usable life but it was Hell when it was well! In the early days of CDs, I’d make mix tapes (reels) from those shiny, newfangled so & so’s and I liked listening to the tapes better than the discs. Ah youth...
" Not denigrating it but i just feel its a dead end format because the good techs and original critical parts are impossible to find like special heads, motors, mechanisms, high grade audio tape and so on. True R2R Techs are the hardest to find and when you do they are handcuffed by no available original parts."
Vinnie, stop making this stuff up, parts and services are available, use a search engine.
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