Can a tiny silver bowl affect music reproduction

Salectric, I know Ambience Audio in CT can at least get them. The problem is that the manufacturer will only make 50 per year. A US distributor was interested and wanted 15 sets per month and was told no.

Maybe Zilplex should go on Shark Tank. Does limiting production somehow make the product more exclusive? "Make hay while the sun shines," my granddaddy always used to say.

" Does limiting production somehow make the product more exclusive?"

To put it simply, yes.

Mapman, I was attempting to be facetious. Why would anyone - in this economy - when selling something as esoteric as tiny silver bowl resonators limit production? Doesn't make sense.

I know a farmer that is in hard times (politics) So his son is shining shoes to make their ends meet. The father "makes hay while the son shines"

Clever.

One can understand how to set up systems extremely well. If that someone adds an esoteric product and sets it up even better, is it the product or the ability to understand room dynamics really well?

I've been in a few of these rooms and even helped tweak one of Ted's rooms. The bowls seem silly and he is a bit of a clown about setting them up, but in the end the room had a vast improvement. Extra hardware or masterful setup? I wasn't around when the tiny bowls were removed.

Anyone done the same?

Geoffkait, it really is none of your business and you brashly jump to conclusions, but he is retired and makes them in his home because he is proud of how effective they are.

Bjesien, are you talking about the Syn. Res. Arts or the Zilplexes. I think both are the product of thinking they could work and spending many hours tinkering with them to get their effects right.

If anything, they are probably just effective as a form of eq. Gearing the size to accommodate a certain freq. band and then focusing the reflection in particular directions stands to reason. I wonder how well they would work if they were damped to prevent them from resonating.

Csontos wrote,

"If anything, they are probably just effective as a form of eq. Gearing the size to accommodate a certain freq. band and then focusing the reflection in particular directions stands to reason."

That can't be right since the tiny bowls are (intentionally) placed in locations where there are high sound pressure levels such as room corners, first reflection points, second reflection points. Nothing so mundane as focusing certain frequencies. The tiny little silver bowls have been fairly well understood for at least 10 years, ever since Franck Tchang introduced his Acoustic Resonators, just as Helmholtz resonators have been understood for, what, 150 years?

Csonros, There are three types. One goes on the ceiling, Three go about 14" off the floor at the front or speaker end of the room. The remaining seven have thiner support wires. All use the same bowls and all but that on the ceiling is at a tilt angle of 45ºs toward the wall.

I see no way that there could be any direction to what come off the resonating. Of course having the bowls at a 45º angle means that their resonance is quite variable in frequency.

The Syn. Res. bowls are all level. There are some similarity to where both systems are located. The Syn. Res. bowls ring audibly but not the Zilplex. Both have no effect if placed on dampening cloth.

My point is I don't think the bowls resonating makes a lick of difference. If anything it has to do with the re-direction of the waves reflected out of the bowls. Like a parabolic mic in reverse. Placement could still be critical.

Tbg, When the bowls are placed at the optimum places, do you notice any change in tonal balance? For instance, is there any brightening or accentuation of the treble? Or possibly some leaning out of the bass?

I have started experimenting with some DIY resonators and they are indeed quite interesting. Based on how this experiment goes, I may follow up with either the Synergistic Research ART or Basik, or alternatively the Zilplex.

Salectric, having sat through multiple demonstrations in my two rooms and at THE Show done by Zilplex, I cannot say that I hear any change in the frequency response. I hear a great collapse of the sound stage as well as becoming much less involved in the sound field.

I still vividly remember how unsettled I was when I first got all of the Zilplexes installed properly in my small room. I had the distinct feeling that had I stood and walked three feet in front of me that I might fall into a void and that a few foot in front of that I would be on the 50 feet wide stage with Diana Krall. That doesn't bother me much anymore but I am still aware when one of the bowls is not at the 45º angle. I can also say that I have learned that having one Zilplex on the left wall slightly below that on the right wall, moves the sound away from the left side. I also only have experience only with symmetrical rooms. But I did hear an L shaped room with the speakers on the long part of the L, get treated to remove the bottom of the L part.

Although I also heard improvements with the Syn. Res. Arts in their demonstrations, they never had me so unsettled by their impact. While I am curious about why I got this impact, I still enjoy the benefits of the Zilplexes.

I should say that I have no money invested in Zilplex and don't sell them. I only would love to know why they have such impressive impact on the sound.

Thank you Tbg. Your reviews of the Zilplex are why I am presently leaning in that direction. I just wanted to make sure there weren't any tonal irregularities being introduced.

Salectric. Your post demonstrates what a small world it is. Like Tbg I have listened to the Zilplex and Synergistic Research Acoustic Arts system. I do not think Tbg auditioned the "full" Arts System. However he is using a full Ziplex system, and I am using and quite happy with a full Synergistic Acoustic Arts system.

My common bond with you is our use of horns, tube amps, Dulands and Northcreeks. I would suggest trying the new Synergistic Research HFT- FEQ system. A tremendous improvement in allowing the sound from the speakers to interact with the room acoustics. They have a 30 day trial, are easy to set up using the You Tube tutorial, and no damage to walls. The Zilplex and Acoustic Art systems are labor intensive to optimize the room sound. However the time is worth it.

Davidpritchard, I did have the full Arts system in Texas. I had two Basik systems in New Mexico. I actually have two full Zilplex systems-one in NM and the other in TX. Frankly I thought the demonstration of the HFT-FEQ on the Bose radio was unimpressive.

Excerpt from a review of the Tchang Acoustic Resonators by 6 Moons in 2007. Apologies if I posted this previously.

"The resonators also become focal points for intense overtone radiation. That is denser at their points of origin than in the surrounding air. As directional organs, our ears key into these radiation sources and our acoustic perception of the space we're in is altered. Again, no music needs to be played to sense this spatial overlay. Speech will do, or the sound of our own foot fall. Being completely passive, the resonators can only be activated by received energy. As HF modulators, a full-range input obviously isn't needed. Franck Tchang has used a spectrum analyzer to corroborate this action up to 3GHz. By affecting the ordinary acoustic damping through adding parallel values from the resonators, original HF content reappears. It becomes audible again and rebalanced against the LF energies. Treble decays improve and the subjective impression of audible space deepens. The resonators equalize air pressure differentials and can be installed in a fridge, mailbox or outside a room. Distance will not affect their efficaciousness. That's quite a fatal blow to common sense but there it is according to the maestro. Franck has treated recording studios, performance venues, bars, living spaces and entire buildings. His demand as an expert tuning maestro is growing. That brings to mind Combak Corp.'s Kiuchi-San who enjoys a similar reputation in Japan."

Tbg, Thank you for the correction. I have installed the Synergistic Research HFT + FEQ system and I am happy with the sonic gains made. Especially for those looking for a simpler way of improving room sonics, I found this to be a good choice. I am sure you have your room dialed in with the Zilplex system. I also do not understand exactly how any of these systems work, but work they do!

Tgb, yes the SR bowls. Perhaps you are correct about the power of suggestion. Just reading through this threat again makes me want to pack a tiny silver bowl.

Has anyone tried the new Audio Magic Bells? Retail is US600. Briefly talked to someone at Jaguar Audio. He reckons they are better than Zilplex ASI and SR. Hmmm.
Personally i have been interested in trying Zilplex for a while now.
Anyone know where they are available at a good discount price? Jaguar audio were selling them for under US1500 earlier this year.

Petieboy12003, Jaguar was given a good discount at that price. Only about 50 sets are made each year. Who makes the Magic Bells?

Does it matter if the tiny silver bowls have been cryogenically treated?

Hi Norm, do you know Audiogon member Robert(Maceear)?
He responded to my query "Don’t buy the audio magic bells. it’s not even close to the Zilplex."
Regardless, i have always wanted to try Zilplex. Your review helped. Thanks.

Good news is i just managed to get a new set from Wiebe.
Wiebe was nice enough to offer me direct price due to a couple reasons which was very kind indeed. So i am very happy.
Wiebe seems like a gracious interesting fellow. So far i have very good luck and relations with Holland and audio. Hoping this will be another.

Shall comment on this thread after i have some time with Zilplex in my room.
Looking forward to it.
IDC how they work exactly. I probably wouldn`t understand even if i were told.
Hopefully i will get similar results as Norm and a few others who apparently had very positive results. I simply must try them for myself otherwise it is always going to bother me. My mind and ears are open.

BTW Norm have you any experience with Eighth Nerve? I have a few of their latest gen triangles and 1 rectangle.
Any idea how Zilplex might interact having these triangles in the ceiling/wall corners? Totally different kind of devices. I shall experiment.
So far Eighth Nerve are the only room correction devices i have not sold.
I currently use zero traps or reflection point treatments.

Oh and Audio Magic make the magic bells.

Uh, the name of that particular thingamabob is getting uncomfortably close to the Quantum Temple Bell.

Petieboy12003, I don't know Robert, but my experience with other room treatments suggests that few work. I found the Syn. Res. ARTs and Basiks did but not to the level of the Zilplexes.

I watched Wiebe at shows note that a side room was screwing up the sound and struggle with it until he solved it. I don't really understand how these tiny devices work, but he has a handle on how to use them to great benefit.

There is some need to experiment with the location of the eleven, but initially follow his instruction closely and where you have symmetry be very careful to have the Zilplexes on both sides identically located. I found that a 1/8 inch difference mattered.

If I can be of any help use my email on Stereo Times to ask.

your eyes tellin' your ears to listen.

Geoffkait, who has ever heard of the Quantum Temple Bell or the Magic Bells until now?

Tbg, Hey, better late than never.

Ha! Go the Tibetan bowls *big grin*
Top find Norm well done.
Ignore these tiny little bowls at your own peril people

I was in Greenwich Village recently and stumbled on a nice pair of Tibetian bowls in a yoga shop there. Almost pulled the trigger.......

Mapman, there is a good deal more to it than just being Tibetan bowls.

No doubt.

I listened to several bells . They all sounded different. Some good, some much less so.

No i think Mapmans clever sarcastic implications may be right. My ears and mind are playing tricks on me. Surely.
Mapman must fully understands things like electron flow, energy and resonant energy transfer/release or energy sound fields, vibration and all these interactions and more with things such as different metals geometry etc under all circumstances etc etc.
Mapman knows best obviously to cleverly imply such things with such good intentioned wit.

Might start listening to the men in suits(government) again too. Silly me for thinking they are merely puppets working for a higher shadow power with huge agendas not publicly announced for seemingly obvious reasons. Same goes for mainstream science. There can`t be anything more out there or any purposeful disinformation upon humanity for any reasons. Silly me thinking that maybe some of the most interesting important things are sometimes the things we can`t physically see, therefor accept, within our operating frequency. Or understand with basic, what i thought often primitive, mainstream knowledge for that matter. Might get off the manipulative corrupt internet from now on and start watching all the comfortable information on TV again. Silly me. Hey Mapman is Baywatch still viewing? Hope so.

Yes these ridiculous little snake oil bowls were obviously warping my mind. Retail over 2K !!?? How could i have been so deceived. How could my mind and ears perceive such a improvement in sound within my room? How could i possibly hear difference in sound or tune my room/system to some degree by just changing angle of the bowls? What is wrong with me??
And to think i was seriously contemplating never to use any typical room treatment ever again after installing Zilplex. Nup. Back to mainstream room treatments because we all understand them and they must work much better than anything we do not properly understand yet or things which simply appear unbelievable based on all our obviously correct and up to date mainstream info. A tiny little 1cm silver bowl.... hahaha what was i thinking. My subconscious has obviously been playing tricks on me all this time. The subconscious is a very powerful thing!
But but... years ago so many of us were severely condemned for thinking knowing the world was round..... ugh....NO.... i think i`m confusing myself again....shyt...

That`s it! These little snake oil Zilplex bowls are going straight in the bin post-haste. And i couldn`t possibly bring myself to try selling them to another sucker after this reality check. My loss unfortunately. Might start going to church again too. That makes much more sense.
Yep straight in the bin. Same goes for all my other non-mainstream tweaks based on quack quantum science etc. OMG does this mean all my cables and Star Sound Technology and similar products are really useless as well?? All this time effort and money all down the drain??
Damn what have i done!!

Then again thanks to Mapman i am now saved from my own insanity. Now i can go back to being a content conformed mainstream repeater sheep and no more wasting money on snake oil audio products and perceiving better sound. Yay!
I could very well be reformed now. If not then back to the doctor for stronger medication ay Mapman.
What on earth would some of us do without such caring grounded fully informed understanding people such as yourself. Thank you so much! Champion!

Empty Budweiser bottles work quite well, too. But not necessarily in a good way. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that empty beer bottles in the rooms at CES are one reason the sound at the show sucks so consistently.

The best tiny bowl that will enhance the sound is the one filled with burning herb.

" In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that empty beer bottles in the rooms at CES are one reason the sound at the show sucks so consistently."

One reason. Probably just after beard lengths in importance.

However; the greater the number/longer the beards, the more spurious resonances(generated by those empty beer bottles) absorbed.

thank you LSE for some truth

Pehare, I can live with your ignorance.

A Helmholtz resonator's characteristics are determined by a combination of variables - volume diameter of nozzle and length of nozzle. There is no reason on Earth why a tiny little bowl cannot have as big an impact as a much larger bowl. It's not just the volume. Hel-loo! For the Sugar Cubes from Franck Tchang even greater heartburn for naysayers as the hole in each Sugar Cube has the diameter of a gnat's proboscis.

Breaking the symmetry of sound waves allows the sound to be directed to a certain place

Research undertaken by the Universidad Carlos III de Madrid (UC3M) has concluded that sound can be directed to a certain place if the sound waves' symmetry is broken. In order to carry out this work, recently published in the journal Nature, researchers used the whispering gallery phenomenon, a circular, vaulted room in which you can hear what is being said in a specific part of the room from anywhere, even if it is being whispered.

In order to undertake this research, the research team created an artificial whispering gallery in the laboratory that reproduces the same type of effects. Once developed, they added two elements to break the symmetry of the waves, which is what makes it possible to hear the sound from anywhere in the room. On the one hand, they added gain, which allows the waves to be selectively amplified, and, on the other hand, they added topology, which allows the waves to circulate in the desired direction.

"By using specific geometric arrangements, such as topology, we broke this rotational symmetry so that the sound can slide through the whispering gallery in a fully controlled manner. In addition, we also added gain, a property that allows the wave to be amplified in order to break the chiral symmetry (an object's property of not being superposable with image)", notes one of the researchers, Johan Christensen, from the UC3M's Department of Physics.

carbon nanotubes…… why not…. Don’t we all wish for a 2014 do over ?

The great Mayan ball courts are 225 ft wide by 545 ft in length, surrounded by stadium style seating. You can stand at one end of it and talk to someone standing at the other end and have a conversation without raising your voice. No need to yell. We don't know everything already but discovered ways of doing some things by trial and error, happenstance, etc. People just need to accept some things and get on with life and when time and opportunity permits, figure out why. No need to disregard some things because you can't wrap your head around it.

All the best,
Nonoise