You forgot to mention the Frank Tchang Acoustic Resonators that were the first tiny bowl resonators, the Tchang bowls notable due to their use of pure exotic metals such as silver, gold and platinum. If I recall correctly the geometry of these tiny bowls is associated not only with an audio frequency wavelength but also with a very high electromagnetic wavelength in the microwave. Wasn't it Tchand who recommended placing an acoustic resonators in other rooms or even inside the refrigerator?
Can a tiny silver bowl affect music reproduction
I am speaking of the Ziplex one half inch wide silver bowls, but the same questions apply to the Synergistic Research ARTs.
About two weeks ago I had four audiophiles in my listening room. We were listening to the impact of the Tripoint Troy Signature. I was standing and noticed that one of the eleven Zilplexes in my room was laying flat on the three silver support rods on the wall. It was the one that is about midway down the left wall and about seven and a half feet off the floor. It is supposed to be at a 45º angle facing the wall. As unobtrusively as possible I stepped on a foot stool that I leave there as this is a common happening and carefully inclined the bowl into a proper condition. I then returned to where I was standing.
Someone asked what did I just do, and I stated the above. They all were in disbelief about how it could have such an effect. I told them that Zilplex had been at CES and at the RMAF about a year or two ago, I repeatedly did their demonstration of removing all eleven Zilplexes. Always those in the audience said exactly what my four friends had said.
Having stumbled onto these a couple of years ago, I said that the inventor and owner really didn't have an explanation for the effect that it was all a trial and error process, which, of course, had taken countless hours. Synergistic Research also has a comparable bowl device, which Ted Denny attributes to his hear Tibetan monks and their bowls. There are of course Tibetan bowls. Syn. Res. ARTs are bigger than the Zilplexes but neither is the size of typical Tibetan bowls.
Tibetan bowls, of course, resonate when struck or rubbed at the rim. SR ARTs ring when knocked together. Zilplex don't ring. I asked Zilplex about this and was told they ring but at a frequency we cannot hear. My question is why would ringing bowls located variously in a room, greatly improve the apparent size of the rooms and the realism of the reproduced music?
All I can say is that they do, and I have heard no real explanation.
About two weeks ago I had four audiophiles in my listening room. We were listening to the impact of the Tripoint Troy Signature. I was standing and noticed that one of the eleven Zilplexes in my room was laying flat on the three silver support rods on the wall. It was the one that is about midway down the left wall and about seven and a half feet off the floor. It is supposed to be at a 45º angle facing the wall. As unobtrusively as possible I stepped on a foot stool that I leave there as this is a common happening and carefully inclined the bowl into a proper condition. I then returned to where I was standing.
Someone asked what did I just do, and I stated the above. They all were in disbelief about how it could have such an effect. I told them that Zilplex had been at CES and at the RMAF about a year or two ago, I repeatedly did their demonstration of removing all eleven Zilplexes. Always those in the audience said exactly what my four friends had said.
Having stumbled onto these a couple of years ago, I said that the inventor and owner really didn't have an explanation for the effect that it was all a trial and error process, which, of course, had taken countless hours. Synergistic Research also has a comparable bowl device, which Ted Denny attributes to his hear Tibetan monks and their bowls. There are of course Tibetan bowls. Syn. Res. ARTs are bigger than the Zilplexes but neither is the size of typical Tibetan bowls.
Tibetan bowls, of course, resonate when struck or rubbed at the rim. SR ARTs ring when knocked together. Zilplex don't ring. I asked Zilplex about this and was told they ring but at a frequency we cannot hear. My question is why would ringing bowls located variously in a room, greatly improve the apparent size of the rooms and the realism of the reproduced music?
All I can say is that they do, and I have heard no real explanation.
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I could tell a difference eith the synergistic cups. I was at rmaf 2 years ago and did a/b testing with them. I could tell a difference. Night and day? No, but then again, how many tweaks do we do in order to gain a slight improvement? Quite a few. Quite a few adds up to the difference between good and magic. I could also tell a difference with that synergistic (i think it was synergistic) equipment stand that doubles as a power conditioner. It's a shame that the scams out there keep us from the upgrades that are hard to believe, but actually work. Hopefully Geoff doesn't find this thread, lol. |
B_limo, thanks for the considered response. I also heard a SR demonstration perhaps four years ago and bought the ARTs immediately. My point in this post is that everyone heard not my installation of all eleven Zilplexes but rather just the angle of the bowl on the wall mount. Also, I didn't think they would hear much. I should note that two did ask how much they cost and did ask how to get them. I don't expect that any will buy them, however. As you say there are scams out there that greatly callus some to reject every innovation. I'm sure Geoff faces this. His are much less effective than the Zilplexes, as I have bought many of them and have Brilliant Pebbles in a closet here. However, I'm appalled that many totally reject any tweak. I will typically try a tweak but on doing most will conclude that their effect doesn't justify their price. |
Tbg, sorry you haven't had any luck with crystals. These things happen. Of course, it should be pointed out a great many people have. Alan Mayer products, Acoustic Revive products, even the new Walker Black Diamond Crystal, not to mention the pebbles. Like Mpingo discs, it takes some patience to discover the ideal locations. Surely, the tiny little bowls you refer to are location sensitive, eh? |
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Tbg wrote, "Geoffkait, I specifically left out the Acoustic Resonators for two reasons, they are not Tibetan bowls, and they are no way near as effective." They are ALL bowls, including my ceramic 1" bowls. Calling them "Tibetan bowls" I think confuses the issue somewhat. I think that eleven bowls would certainly be better than say three or four. Did you have eleven of the Tchang Acoustic Resonators? Has your system changed. Lots of variables involved. "For me the question still remains "how can resonators improve the sound?" Have you read any reviews of the Tchang Acoustic Resonators to see if their mechanism of operation is revealed. Do you know how Mpingo discs work? You are a reviewer, right? I thought reviewers were supposed to be able to get to the bottom of these things. |
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Rumor has it those things are really bells, and, well probably also ring like a bell, which most audiophiles normally frown upon. |
Nice ones on Amazon for about $30 for the rookies to try if of interest. |
Good point Mapman. Here's a serious comment. Just replaced the old worn-out "listening" sofa in my basement. The new "listening" seat is a reclining leather love seat. When listening to music, I notice that the love seat picks up a lot of bass energy -- much more so than the old fabric sofa. At the same time, I noticed that the room is way less susceptible to bass nodes and ringing. I also fiddled a lit bit with my sub woofer and moved the speakers around, just a bit. I suspect that the new coach is absorbing a lot of excess bass energy in a very positive way. Maybe?? |
When I attended the second to last Newport Audio show, one of the larger demo rooms had the Tchang acoustic bowls all over the place. There were some on the wall behind the speakers, on the equipment in the middle and right in front of the speakers. As I sat down, I noticed that one of the bowls in front of the speakers was knocked over. Music was playing and people were talking since the demo hadn't officially started. As I started to look away, someone righted the bowl and it produced a very dramatic change in the music. It actually startled me. The whole soundstage changed and everything locked in, so to speak. To this day I can not figure out what happened. I mentioned it to one of the presenters of the demo and he couldn't explain why but offered that lots of dealers use them, so he does as well. There is something at play here and though it's an easy target to mock, I'll keep on straddling the fence on this one. All the best, Nonoise |
They are Helmholtz resonators. They have a relatively low resonant frequency due to the wide, short "nozzle" of the bowl even though the volume is low. A clue to how they work is the placement of the bowls at first reflection points and standing wave locations. An empty coke bottle also exhibits a relatively low resonant frequency when one blows across the lip of the bottle. In fact, coke bottle resonators should work very well in a pinch. |
Any and all the objects and their placement in a room will effect the sound the room producers for your unique ears. There is no way to predict how any object will react, including silver bowls. Best way to find out is to have them in your room and listen. Better sound? You be the judge, its that simple. |
Mapman, I didn't say that he cannot hear. I watched him ponder how to treat a room with a small side room on the speaker wall. It took him two days but then that room had no effect on the sound. I also know that he tried many bowl sizes and metals and countless placements of the devices as well a many different numbers of those devices. Trial and error are the only alternative if there is no theory on which to base these decisions. Buconero117, I agree but some objects have greater effects and trial and error is very time consuming. Just imagine designing a passenger aircraft by trial and error! |
I may bbuy a pair of $30 tibetian bowls, set them square center on top of my OHMs, and see/listen what happens. OHMs are uniquely designed to enable placing objects on them and having a better than average chance of hearing something different. If nothing good happens, well, like I said at least I have a nice pair of conversation pieces and yoga aids. |
The tiny silver bowls were introduced ten years ago. The whole idea of these type things is not new, they have been been thoroughly reviewed in the press and have been demonstrated a great many times at shows. If there remains ANY mystery as to whether they can have an enormous effect on the sound it is most likely only in the mind of the uninitiated. If there remains any mystery as to HOW they work, well, that may be, at least in part, due to lack of due diligence since many of the reviews go into great detail on the subject, for example the review in 6 Moons by the two PhDs. |
Tgb wrote, "I also know that he tried many bowl sizes and metals and countless placements of the devices as well a many different numbers of those devices. Trial and error are the only alternative if there is no theory on which to base these decisions." But that's not really true. For ten years, ever since the Franck Tchang tiny silver bowls came out, detailed instructions for placement have been discussed ad nauseum in the many rave reviews, most notably the 6 Moons Review by the two PhDs. I provide simple instructions for my ceramic bowls, which, not very surprisingly, mirror the instructions for other tiny bowls. Now I'm starting to see why you didn't have much luck with the Moingos. Lol |
Mapman, Tibetan bowls are associated with yoga, mainly in some of the typical music played while doing it, but I cannot imagine your exciting your bowls while doing Pigeon, Warrior, etc. But why would I discourage your experimenting with objects? I suspect, however, that your bowls are just excited at way too low a frequency. LOL! |
"I suspect, however, that your bowls are just excited at way too low a frequency. LOL!" Well, you just never know now do you? Maybe how it works for Yogis is the key. An audio engineer who has never practiced Yoga may have no clue! "Is that bowls or bowels? HA (I'm bad:)" Well, look, I may be crazy (who in this hobby is not to some extent) but not sure about that one. Good Karma can have many positive effects though. Ya never know..... I have one Yoga teacher who rings a bell during "OM" chant at the end of class (he is my most hardcore instructor) and I have noticed that the chant seems to resonate more holographically that way in that the harmonics do seem to align and hold ones attention better. No joke!!!! Fascinating stuff..... |
"Mapman, why would you place them on top of the OHMs. What would you hope to prove? Have you not been following the discussion with respect to the proper locations for the singing bowls? " Geoff, I suppose I'm just a rebel at heart... Is there a blueprint for how to use them best with Walsh driver based omni-directional speakers like the OHMS? They might work best the same with these speakers as others, but my experience over the years has been that OHMs and omnis aare different beasts acoustically and have to be addressed as such. Listening to the room and not the speakers IS always the key with OHMs though, so that's a good omen. I'm very used to doing that and advising others who listen to do the same as well. Don't worry...I have a plan. If I put them on there and they do not work, then I will...remove them and put them somewhere else where I can admire them at a minimum even if they do nothing for me audiophile-wise. |
My basic assumption would be that sound pressure levels would largely determine the magnitude of the bell ringing effect of gadgets like these bowls. Placing bowl on top of OHMs would be interesting to try, if nothing else. SPLs above teh Walsh driver are probably greater than most speakers designs but still much lower than horizontal plane, where most of the sound is directed. IT would be a unique configuration and test. Otherwise, I could see where prime reflection points on rear wall relative to primary listening position might be the best spot in most cases and still relevant even with omnis/OHMs. OHMs + tibetian bowls.......truly going perhaps where no man has gone before? Or maybe best to keep such things and stereos apart from each other for use on the more typical terms of each? Dunno. When I scap up an extra $60 bucks for a pair of bowls, I'll provide an update. |
Mapman, so you are going for a shot in the dark. I would rather depend on Zilplexe's efforts to deal with all of this. I would love to have back the countless wasted hours when I tried quartz in various applications, isolation feet of various materials, power cords, cartridges, etc. Even in retirement my time is worth something and, of course, limited. |
"Mapman, so you are going for a shot in the dark. I would rather depend on Zilplexe's efforts to deal with all of this. " Maybe, but its so much more fun this way. I'll read up on Zilplex though just to be as well informed as possible. Bowls are not top of my list of things to buy yet. I have a wife and two kids (one in college, one still to go) to deal with. Fathers Day is coming up though, so maybe I'll put in a request. I just like the idea of having them. If they can help my sound, that's icing on the cake, but frankly, I am very happy with the sounds I currently get through various channels around my home, not to mention headphones. |
Mapman, I will virtually guarantee that you will be amazed by the Zilplexes. I was utterly amazed when I put them into my room in NM. It is only 13 x 10 x 8'. I had been playing Diana Krall's A Case of You. It was okay in that small room. When I installed the eleven Zilplexes and sat down to listen, what I heard before me was the room where she played, not the ten foot wide and eight foot high room in which I was sitting. I should note that the one ceiling Zilplex is vital, as is the 45º angle toward the wall on all but the ceiling one. |
"what I heard before me was the room where she played, not the ten foot wide and eight foot high room in which I was sitting" That's pretty much what I hear already in both of my OHM rooms currently. But one can always aspire to do even better though I would agree. At this point, no doubt I think I have to be willing to think out of the box a bit to accomplish that in any real meaningful way. We'll see... |