Cable Controversy

psag, you forgot something.

He/she would be extremely wealthy, to the point where spending hundreds of dollars per foot is no object.

One thing I discovered about some pretty high profile cable manufacturers is - their speaker cables can actually degrade an amp’s performance to the point of failure.

This applies to speaker cables that have a high capacitance - they should NOT be used with some high current solid state amp designs because they can actually drive the amp into an "oscilation state" resulting in blown components.

Naim, is one company I know of that identifies this issue on their web site, but there are several other amp manufacturers who’s products would also be effected by high capacitance cables, but they do not publicly warn of this issue.

And cable companies never suggest their cables are only suited to certain amplifier designs - it would be disastrous for their sales.

It’s up to the customer to discover this - normally at their expense.
- It happened to an acquaintance of mine who blew two high end amps

On another topic....

Infection wrote - "No surprise that WW recommends KLEI...!"

Yes, I promote their products shamelessly because I was fortunate to be able to try pretty much their entire line of cables, and Keith Louie Eichman and I have exchanged numerous emails back and forth on the subject of his approach, theories and cable/connector designs.

However - I have also had the opportunity to compare their performance to a few other well known brands of cables on both my own system, on friends systems and also in-store systems (yes, I take my cables to the store :-) - and I have no problem recommending KLE Innovations products simply because of their level of performance and their cost effectiveness.

They may not be anything fancy to look at, but they are extremely good at what they contribute to a system’s performance - once you burn them in.

Are they the ultimate cable? Probably not, but they seem to consistently improve the performance of the few very varied systems I have tried them on to date.

Back to the music :-)

I would love to sit down and talk with this person, and I will make it worth their while:

He/she would be an experienced listener with intact hearing, and a good working knowledge of acoustics and electrical engineering.  He/she would be in possession of an excellent playback system, having used it to evaluate cable looms from the most highly regarded brands. He/she would have excellent communication skills, in order to describe his/her findings and conclusions. And finally, he/she would be completely rational, objective, and unbiased in forming these conclusions.

Anyone?

............,no arguing with stupid or a fool

I was hoping this wasn't another troll thread. To be safe I will cut up my fancy wires and cry myself to sleep for being so foolish....

 The cable discussion has been done to death so this is basically a troll post.....some hear cable differences,some don't..it would be foolish to spend ones hard earned money and not judge for yourself as opposed to debating , stating which is best or stating its all snake oil

For the most part I have concluded that online discussions of cables as per the OP are fruitless. Everyone sits smugly with their perspective and not often is there a true exchange resulting in action. In all the years I have been here I have seen only three instances where someone was motivated by discussion to actually try comparisons of cables, then came back and reported their opinion changed. 

That's too low of a "success rate" in terms of willingness to invest my time on such matters. That's not a mark against the use of designer cables, but confirmation of the stubbornness of people who could explore things at marginal cost, but are pig-headed. Imo it usually comes down to money, and there are some no matter how much argument, will not part with a buck to try something. It's wasted breath on such people. 

The Cable Company is a great resource if you want to borrow a variety of cable types from their lending library to see what clicks with your particular system.

Cables sometimes defy all rules and logic.  It's best to try a couple different brands and see which one you like best.  

"...as many answers as responders...as to which cables are best."

Yes, and its very system-dependent. I would like to believe that some designs are better than others, but what makes one cable better than another?

For example, if a cable makes a mediocre sounding system sound better, is that a better cable? My guess is that such a cable would sound lousy in a superior system.

@larrymroy - elucidate...

Faith-based audio

rvito, I am using a 12 gauge silver plated copper wire, although not "home made". Question for you, are you using a high number of strands (i.e. somewhere in the low hundreds each of which are extremely small gauge and when combined the effective gauge is 8, or very few larger gauge)?

I have tried many different brands of high end cables in my system. As far as speaker cables I ended up making some home made ones out of 8 gauge mil-spec Silver plated copper wire with good terminals. Out of many different brands I have tried these sound the best by far.

Purist Audio Design, once you hear them, all of the others sound broken.

Most discrepancies in results or abberations in SQ can be easily explained by wire directionality.

IMO, there are numerous things to say about cables in general.  First, absolutely no one, perhaps outside The Cable Company, has heard even a fraction of what must surely be hundreds, if not thousands, of brands and designs.  I would include from this observation that there is no "expert" when it comes to having vast knowledge of cables.  Just be prepared to get as many answers as responders when you post questions on online forums as to which cables are best.  Second, the single biggest reason for all of the cables is that they are of relatively standard designs and require little capital investment.  Recently, at a medical device show I wandered over to a medical cable manufacturer's booth during one of many slow periods, and they told me they private label manufacture cables for numerous audio companies.  Third, everyone changes the basic designs to some degree to have a marketing edge.  Fourth, I am confident that price markups on cables are among the highest among products in the audio industry.  Fifth, in my experience I am absolutely terrific at buying cables at a good deal and pathetically poor at selling them without taking a big financial bath.  So that indicates the used cables market is a buyers' market.  Sixth, yes, cables can make a significant difference and finding the best is probably a lifetime project.

Psag, it's all system dependent. It's a great goal to come up with something that won't hurt the signal but isn't that the goal of most cable makers? There's no magic bullet of a cable that can be all things to suit everyone's needs. Simply changing out a speaker or amp can render a great SC to a merely good SC since you've now altered the output of the amp or the input characteristics of the speaker.

You can have the "best" wire and mess it all up with lousy connectors as well. Not to mention should they be cold crimped or soldered or just bare wire.

Try as many as you can until you're satisfied. You'll know it when you hear it. :-)

All the best,
Nonoise

Here's another example: At least one popular manufacturer of speaker cables and interconnects claims that the goal of cable design is to do no harm to the signal, or as little harm as possible.  Is that is indeed the goal of cable design? And if so, then what type of cable best achieves that goal?

What controversy?

No surprise that WW recommends KLEI...!

As previously mentioned cables are system dependent & there is a limit to the capabilities of your system from which cables can extract. 

williewonka, thanks for the sweet link! 

Some light reading.....
www.image99.net/blog

BTW - these are extremely good cables.

But if you are not into DIY there are some great alternatives...
- KLE Innovations
- Anticables


regards

First, if you can't hear the difference in cables, good for you.
For the rest of us, I consider cables to be similar to spice in a recipe. You have the main ingredients, but without the spice's it just isn't finished.
As previously stated, I too have found cables to be very system dependent.
I have not found that this or that particular conductor or dialectric has a set signature.
A PCOCC cable from Mfg A can sound very different from a PCOCC cable from mfg B. etc.
Some silver cables can sound bright while others are smooth. 
As has also been suggested, just keep trying different cables until you hit on that magical combination in your system.
Heck, I just built a pair of interconnects from some vintage 18Ga cloth covered wire that blow away any/all the other interconnects I have in my system. Some of which retail for $1500+.
You never know what will work until you try it.
Have fun with it.
Just my 2 cents.

And the difference between outstanding and breathtaking is using an Audiodharma Cable Cooker to fully condition the power cords (including the ground), fully condition the Interconnects, and condition the speaker cables. Add to this the modestly priced Jim Hagerman FryCorder which conditions the house wiring all the way back to the utility transformer.

These two devices allow your wire to demonstrate their full potential!

David Pritchard

Agreed-
the difference between excellent and outstanding- is Cabling!

The one thing I've taken away from just about every thread on cables is that:
1) No single type of cable that works well in one system is going to work
    as well in another.
2) Since there are no absolutes due to all the variables, try different  
    cables until you find the one(s) that work best in your system.  
3) Cost is a consideration only in what your limits are, knowing that there
    is a law of diminishing returns with all things audio.  

All the best,
Nonoise

IMO cables are worth exploring.  Sometimes the difference between good and fantastic is the cabling.