Cable Burn In

while there are some $few sonic differences can be noted in wires, fraction of penny or simply none can be noted in pre/after 'burn-in' so 

I just filed your response under Whatever. It’s not necessarily a good debate strategy to agree with me that your statement is false. 😀 

geoffkait wrote:

"Can I respectfully request you read what I wrote again?"

Yes, you may request it. But I already read it twice and there is no need to read it again.

"I said either one, not both."

That does not change anything about it.

"And, no, you’re probably scrambling to get on board but listening I.e.,"

I don't know what you're trying to say here. And yes, I read it again.

"subject evidence is admissible evidence, you know, like an eyewitness in a murder case."

And as such is very weak evidence both in court and in scientific experimentation. But that is irrelevant since you never provided evidence that shadone's opinions were derived without "subjective evidence" anyway. It was just your assertion, which makes you guilty of what you accuse.

"Measurements and subjective tests are both scientific."

As mentioned, subjective tests are among the weakest forms of scientific evidence.

" We “measure” what we hear with our ears."

And that's where we come up with measurements like "that sounds good".

 "Capish?"

Capish? Seriously? Patronize much? 

Break in is like cryogenic treatment and directionality. Everyone does it but nobody talks about it. Settle-in is a term most often used to mean reestablishing the delicate electrical mechanical interface once a Cable has been pulled and reconnected. Or when a cable is pulled and another cable connected, as in a cable shoot-out. Or perhaps even when a cable itself is physically moved.

n80 OP
geoffkait, it seems rather one sided to demand both subjective and scientific proof from shadone in regard to minor tweaks which by definition would be....minor.... And in fact, it really isn’t logical at all to demand "subjective evidence". That’s a bit of an oxymoron, no? And in reality, there does not seem to be any "scientific evidence" in this matter at all. So you are asking for evidence that doesn’t exist.

>>>>Can I respectfully request you read what I wrote again? I said either one, not both. In other words, anything other than ranting and raving. 😛 And, no, you’re probably scrambling to get on board but listening I.e., subject evidence is admissible evidence, you know, like an eyewitness in a murder case. Measurements and subjective tests are both scientific. They’re both empirical evidence. We “measure” what we hear with our ears. Capish?

All it takes is to read the manufacturer’s website about breakin...and how many of them offer the service.

Nordost...

How long do my cables have to break in?

Normally, we recommend at least 168 hours. However, our Reference level cables require at least 336 hours.

What is the best way to break in my cables?

The best way to break in your cables is to have them burned in on the Nordost VIDAR machine by an Authorized Dealer. Most dealers will do this for a small charge and many offer this service when you buy your cables from them. This is another reason to buy your cable from an Authorized Nordost Dealer.

What happens during break in?

Considerable changes occur in the cable during the break in process. Any gases that were trapped between the insulation and the conductors during manufacturing are dissipated. Additionally, the insulation material charges up. The diode effects of the conductor will be more pronounced after 168 hours of break in. During this time the cable takes on a direction.

https://nordost.com/faqs-break-in.php

Morrow...

Breakin Service:
We offer 2, 5 and 10 day breakin service...

...Burn-in operates on magnetic and electrical properties of conductors and insulators. FryDaddy is part of the FryKleanerTM series of professional cable burn-in generators.

http://morrowaudio.com/services/breaking-in-your-cables-cable-direction-and-hookup-instructions-

Cardas....

One reason settling time takes so long is we are linking the charge with mechanical stress/strain relationships. The physical make up of a cable is changed slightly by the charge and visa versa.

The better the dielectric’s insulation, the longer it takes to settle. A charge can come from simply moving the cable (Piezoelectric effect and simple friction), high voltage testing during manufacture, etc.

http://www.cardas.com/insights_break_in.php

I am The Paraclete of Caborca. 💩

That lends some credibility to the issue. And would make a test much easier. I'm assuming someone or some magazine has done it? Just compare cables from that same manufacturer that have had their burn-in service and that have not. Let a group of audiophiles listen at the same time in the same place.

Anyway, I am not at the level that this will ever be an issue for me but I will certainly keep it in the back of my mind. 

George, there are quite a few cable manufacturers that recommend break in / burn in. Some also offer cable burn in services included in the price or as an add on service. 

For a while in the automotive performance world (street, not track) there was the craze for so called grounding kits. This was a large diameter wire to help ground the car's electrical system better than the factory ground(s). For years people spent money on these and made wild performance claims....that you could just feel in the seat of your pants.

I'm not equating this to cable burn-in. jea48 has proposed a very logical method for assessing the phenomenon. It remains very subjective of course and even his method does not control all variables. 

I know I keep beating the same horse, but if this is a real issue, or even a marketable issue, why aren't cable makers selling pre-burnt-in cables....for a premium, of course?

N80 just because people say something is a thing doesn't mean it's a thing LOL. You haven't heard anything yet! There's crazy people that believe that changing out a power cable or a fuse will make a big improvement on the sound!   You have to think about that one… Something that is not even caring the signal, that doesn't even make any measurable difference, somehow has a massive improvement??!
Then there's the one about power cables and fuses being directional! Even though they're all carrying alternating current, which by definition means it flows both ways, somehow there's a right way to orient these things. 

 Be very very careful! There's a lot of total BS in the audio file world that has been created purely to separate you from your money. 

Keep your mind opened.

Did not intend to open the nonoise must have been referring to in the first reply. And I have no expertise to say anything about this issue.

I would just re-state that it seems impossible to assess SQ differences that are separated by days. And it would seem that this burn-in process, if it exists, would occur over time and not at once....which would make a significant subjective evaluation even more difficult.

And again, why would a cable maker sell a product that is not ready for the level of quality expected by the high end audiophile? If quality is truly that important the cable should be burned-in before it is sold. No one has mentioned any cable maker doing this. So if the phenomenon is real, and I have no basis on which to deny that it is, then why wouldn't a serious boutique cable maker do the burn-in before sale?

geoffkait, it seems rather one sided to demand both subjective and scientific proof from shadone in regard to minor tweaks which by definition would be....minor.... And in fact, it really isn't logical at all to demand "subjective evidence". That's a bit of an oxymoron, no? And in reality, there does not seem to be any "scientific evidence" in this matter at all. So you are asking for evidence that doesn't exist. 

@geoffkait

Geoff, On the contrary, I am happy and sleep peacefully knowing that the bogeyman doesn’t exist and is not hiding under my bed or causing strange distortions in my hi-fi. I am happy not needing to buy voodoo tweaks or strange pebbles or silly fuses or mats or contact paste or holy blessed interconnects or wooden oryx horn shaped stands or cup shaped trinkets and quantum speaker wires - happy knowing that none of this is in the least bit beneficial or necessary.

I am happier because I can devote my energy, focus and wallet on things that actually make a difference but even more importantly, I can simply enjoy listening to beautiful music without the least concern or worry in the world that I am missing out because some paranormal mumbo jumbo is limiting my setup.

There are countless threads debating the break-in process on the internet in general as well as Audiogon. I'm not going to debate it, but suggest you do a search on the Audiogon threads or Google. When you get some quality listening time in be the judge for yourself.
BTW @n80 did you also mention aftermarket power cords and AC duplex outlets...;-)

shadorne
It’s a mad mad world. Some audiophiles will believe any tomfoolery that any tomfool cares to invent. It’s a mugs game for the unscrupulous who spend hours here promulgating “fear marketing” that says folks are not getting the best out of their precious system without an endless number of ridiculous tweaks.

>>>>>>Shadorne, I suspect you’ve completely psyched yourself out over this tweak stuff. You actually have no subjective or scientific evidence to support your rather extreme and dreary position that nothing works and everything’s a scam. What a dreadful and sad little corner you’ve painted yourself into. There’s a thin line between mad, mad, mad and sad, sad, sad. 😢

@n80

It’s a mad mad world. Some audiophiles will believe any tomfoolery that any tomfool cares to invent. It’s a mugs game for the unscrupulous who spend hours here promulgating “fear marketing” that says folks are not getting the best out of their precious system without an endless number of ridiculous tweaks. It just shows you that people are terribly unreliable at any kind of precision or sonic memory. Our senses are rather whimsical and clearly influenced by many factors such as mood and expectation. I guess this is why we always use instruments to make precise measurements in hospitals, engineeering, manufacturing, home inspection, food production etc.

The greatest nonsense is that although none of these tweaks can provide any measurable results they are always claimed anecdotally to provide the greatest sound improvements the user has ever encountered. Complete nonsense. Cable burn in is complete nonsense too.

Many cable manufacturers use the term "settling in." A new cable has been manufactured, then coiled into a package and now you are installing it in your system. I believe the settling in process has to do with introducing current into the cable and its interaction between the conductor and the dielectric (or insulation) on a molecular level.

There are so many different cable designs with different substances being used for dielectrics and many different types of metallurgy being used as conductors. The EE measuring parameters with a scope may see a consistent signal, but who’s to say definitively that there is no audible change in the cable after it’s "broken in."

OP - Cable burn-in is indeed "a thing".  Here is a thread from 2003...yes it was a thing way back then as well.  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cable-quot-burn-in-quot?highlight=cable%2Bburn%2Bin

n80

There is a lot of dubious "wisdom" in the audiophile world.

You’ll hear people claiming "break in" is required for literally everything to sound right...even an equipment rack, or a set of isolation feet for your component. It’s a sort of self-perpetuating mythology, because when people listen for differences they *hear* differences, even if there isn’t any in reality.

So you’ll see lots of claims that things like cables need "burn in." But what you will have a hard time finding is actual objective evidence for the claim (e.g. measurements showing audible-levels of difference between a new vs burned in cable).

The Burn-In mantra has of course lots of use for manufacturers to encourage you to keep their product as long as possible. "Not impressed by our product? Don’t just return it; Keep listening...it takes hundreds of hours until it sounds right!" That’s plenty of time to acclimate, listen carefully and over time come to believe you are hearing something new.

Others will likely chime in defending cable burn-in. Meanwhile, here’s a bit of reading for the skeptical side:

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/audio-cable-break-in-science-or-psychological

Is burn in absolutely a myth? I don’t know. But most Electrical Engineers that I’ve seen discuss this over the years, who aren’t part of a company trying to sell boutique cables, tend to dismiss the idea.

You might consider that Belden, for instance, one of the world’s most experienced manufacturers of cable, and who supply to the professional market vs just honing marketing at audiophiles. You won’t find any "our cables need burn in time" from them. (And it would be to say the least awfully inconvenient for all the pro industries if burn in were the ’problem’ audiophiles think it is. Remembering that cables are used not only for high-stakes professional audio and must perform essentially right-out-of-the-box. But cables are involved in countless sensitive technologies, from medical imaging, to NASA. If cables really didn’t hit their specs for hundreds of hours and needed all this burn in time, that is a whole host of potential problems that...funny enough...you never really hear those industries worrying about.  It's like capacitors/resistors burning in.  If those didn't hit their values essentially right out of the box, that could be hugely problematic given the incredible number of highly sensitive instruments that use those passive parts.  And you don't see industry leading manufacturers like Vishay warning for any of their product heading to sensitive industries like medical imaging etc "warning...100 hours BREAK IN TIME needed before these reach their proper specifications! ).

I believe you. I doubt it is anything I would ever notice and it does sound like a very clever way for a cable company to excuse a bad product. I mean, how do you compare what you are hearing right now vs what you're hearing 7.29 days later? Just sayin'. But I'm an eternal skeptic.

Anyway, now I'm curious. Just what exactly is burned-in? And if something needs to be burned-in in an expensive cable, why don't they do it before they send it to you? Or maybe that's a thing. You can buy race tires for your sports car that are heat-cycled several times by the manufacturer to bring them up to peak performance.....for a few extra dollars. Of course maybe the best cable companies do this already? If not, I smell a marketing opportunity!

Well said @drrsutliff !

Cable burn-in is for real.  Once everything is hooked up and working, play music through the system with a CD on repeat.  After about a week the cables should be sounding their best.

What is just as funny is that an audiophile would be sure to not show the system to another audiophile until the cable is past the 175 hour mark so only you have to hear it sound like crap... We suffer alone and only celebrate success with others. ;)

Where did I put that can opener?