Dear Gp49, Have you seen a photo of the actual tt that Salvatore is listening to? If so, does it retain the original Lenco chassis, or has the chassis been ditched in favor of the Peter Reinder's PTP? I ask because I think the PTP makes a big improvement, bigger than any replacement bearing or after-market idler wheel, provided the original bearing and idler wheel are in primo condition. IOW, Salvatore may not yet have heard the best possible iteration of the Lenco. With the PTP, you don't get day to day changes in speed if everything is fastened down as it should be. And of course the motor is much better isolated from the bearing and platter.
Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II
“For those who want the moon but can't afford it or those who can afford it but like to have fun and work with their hands, I'm willing to give out a recipe for a true high-end 'table which is easy to do, and fun to make as sky's the limit on design/creativity! The cost of materials, including 'table, is roughly $200 (depending, more or less), and add to that a Rega tonearm. The results are astonishing. I'll even tell/show you how to make chipboard look like marble and fool and impress all your friends. If there's interest I'll get on with this project, if not, I'll just continue making them in my basement. The next one I make will have a Corian top and have a zebra stripe pattern! Fun! Any takers?”
The Lead in “Da Thread” as posted by Johnnantais - 2-01-04
Let the saga continue. Sail on, oh ships of Lenco!
The Lead in “Da Thread” as posted by Johnnantais - 2-01-04
Let the saga continue. Sail on, oh ships of Lenco!
1,096 responses Add your response
Arthur Salvatore has posted his preliminary impressions from critical listening to a tweaked, rebearinged and replinthed (looks like a Jean Nantais) Lenco idler-drive turntable, with a Graham Phantom II arm. Salvatore has already reported that the Lenco/Graham was a better turntable than the Forsell, his longtime reference and itself no slouch. Excerpts: "I feel it is "highly probable" that the Lenco/Graham is the finest turntable/tonearm combination I've ever heard in my system (or anywhere else for the matter)... "...At any one time, I have heard the Lenco/Graham Phantom II outperform, or at least equal, every other turntable/tonearm combination in my experience, at any price, and in every single sonic parameter. In fact, there is not one area where I can criticize it, when I have heard it at its best (with maybe the possible exception of lateral width, but only "maybe"). I find this state of affairs both amazing and inspiring. "However, it is also important to state this contrasting fact: I have still yet to hear this combination do everything, at its best, all at the same time. This is why I am so frustrated, and also hesitant to make a definitive declaration. Still, I am confident that I can, eventually, and with some help, achieve this complete optimization. When I do, the critical details will be revealed and the highly deserved celebrations can begin, because it will indeed be an audio achievement to celebrate." Of course, this virtually guarantees that those reviewers who are Salvatore enemies will try out a box-stock 1960 Bogen B-61 with an old slipping idler wheel and say it sounds like a 1950s kiddie phono compared to their latest monstrosity with a price into six figures. Or they will assume the ostrich position ("I don't see how...") without LISTENING. In any event, prices of Lencos are about to rise. References: Salvatore's site http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html Lenco Heaven: http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=2348.75 |
Gentlemen, My Panzerholz plinthed Lenco project is completed and for all those who might be interested in exploring less travelled roads in terms of plinth materials (not the usual birch ply or slate), I can suggest you to read the following: http://lenco.reference.xooit.fr/t551-damping-factors.htm Interesting things there ;-) F. |
Internet audio critic Arthur Salvatore is planning an audition of two Lenco-based custom-built turntables (one is a heavy, multi-platter Lenco with a Graham Phantom arm) against a Kuzma, with air-line tonearm, and a Forsell. He will report on the results at his website www.high-endaudio.com and in the meantime has posted information about the planned comparison listening at Lenco Heaven http://www.lencoheaven.net I am not going to post anything further here; go to the referenced websites if you wish to read more. |
Etch, Glad you solved your problem, and I apologize for the humor at a time when you needed help. However, I am hard put to visualize how you could have "knocked the bearing out" while removing the platter. Did you whack the spindle too hard when trying to free up the platter? And for a serious response to your earlier dilemma, I strongly recommend anyone to visit the McMaster Carr website and go to their section on springs. Surely one could find a suitable substitute spring from their vast selection. Even if you don't want a spring, McMaster/Carr are an invaluable asset for hobbyists. For reasons that now elude me, another knowledgeable Lenco-phile told me he prefers a real spring to an elastic, despite the fact that a few of the gurus on Lenco Heaven are using elastic. On another note, a few days ago I completed assembly of my Lenco/PTP3 in an 80-lb slate slab. It took a long time to complete because I was trying for a professional look. (Did not quite get there, but it's nice.) This weekend I hope to create enough shelf space to mount it in my system next to my two direct-drive tables. Dave, I am almost ready to get you over for an audition. I think it will rock. Where the heck is Jean? |
08-20-09: Nickiguy 08-20-09: 4yanx I've still two Lencos spinning. Glad to see you post here again. I always admired your work, and thought the original thread lost a valuable member when you bowed out. Seems as though it has been a long time since you posted on VA too. Nickiguy And of course, 4yanx, you're always welcome over at the new New Lenco Heaven site. A lot of old Lenco hands would love to see what the ol' artisan of plinths has been up to. All best, Mario |
Hi Lewm, Do you mean this picture? http://img44.xooimage.com/files/1/4/4/2-ed6d2c.jpg This is a home made mod on the original Lenco bearing. The idea was to provide a firmer bottom for the spindle to rest on, firmer than the original metal disc and circlip. This is not a commercial product as I made it for my personal use. Rgds, F. |
Francois, I have some limited reading comprehension of French, because I have studied Spanish and Latin. In going through the thread, I saw interesting photos of what looks like a bearing assembly. Can you tell us whose product that is? Is it available for sale or just something that was custom-made for or by one person? Thanks. |
Don't know if of any interest to anybody, but I will start making a moded Lenco in a panzerholz plinth/base. Details here: http://lenco.reference.xooit.fr/t146-Au-commencement.htm in French though..... Cheers, F. |
Thanks Lewm, as the French say, "d'accord," how right you are. I have not even taken receipt of my 'new' used Sony PS 2250 and I have blue prints already finished?! Thanks to all your feedback I shall think things through, which I admit I have not done yet, prior to kicking the chain saw to life. I tried to turn a Kenwood KD 600 into a Linn Sondeck, er, LP12 years ago and, objectively, now probably should and just will sit back and listen to the vintage piece and let it 'speak' to me. No reason to re-invent the wheel (thanks, e.g., to Jean Nantais and Albert Porter)... Still, anyone who has interest in directing me towards achieving the maximum fidelity possible out of this imo gorgeous piece of equipment, I would certainly appreciate it. My slab of panzerholz is going under my SS amp... and my sand/lead shot filled box is going under my TT atop my Target wall mount (at least are my plans tonight :) |
I have my doubts or questions as regards inserting a layer of alu or other metal midway in a wood plinth. The danger is that one may be creating an internal reflective surface that will bounce energy back up toward the turntable, instead of permitting it to dissipate in the nether regions of the plinth. (At the interface of two dissimilar materials, energy is transmitted, absorbed, or reflected, depending upon how the two materials interact with each other. This effect is governed by a constant for the two materials that is called the "coefficient of transmission" or something like that.) It all depends on what happens at the panzerholz/alu interface. And that I do not know. |
As Dopogue indicated, I got a similar response from Johnnantais as well that panzerholz may be too dense per se for plinths. My friend Moritz says that Boomerang was one of the best TTs he's heard (and he's sold some Clearaudio panzerholz' as well). Both of these are sandwiched aluminum panzerholz models. I suspect that both were also 'tuned' with instruments, be the one with its curvature and 'parabolic' width whereas the Clearaudio looks like the panzerholz is milled. One needs sophisticated machines to mill this material. And the Boomerang was perfected in Berlin where the German equivalent of "UL" is and Moritz happens to know a hi-fi crazy who works there... I saved the Albert Porter plinth website for future reference. I noticed that the panzerholz was cut into strips and re-glued. This changes the structural composition. I've used blocks of Panzerholz for cone bases (like ebony, carbon, etc.) and always turn them this way too. Anyway, my project is to build a new plinth for a Sony PS 2500 and I am saving my panzerholz board as platform for my SS amp. I'll be following Albert Porter's guidelines and likely use sandwiched 2 x 48mm birch ply with 1 x 38mm solid 100mm laminated birch [kitchen counter top] board with 1 x aluminum and maybe another layer of this or who knows. I certainly will incorporate the bronze bearing mechanical 'ground' into steel. This is a far better solution than my attempt 25 years ago to ground a Kenwood KD600 (ball bearing coupled with a slab of Plexiglas). Anybody know anybody who can give me some ideas or inputs? Should I document my work / DIY? BTW, I do have a Clearaudio "Accurate"-like TT PS (the German CS PSN), as well as a 'vintage' TDK power filter that came, was rescued from a defunct refrigerated warehouse. |
John, Apology not necessary. I just wondered whether anyone HAD applied a scientific approach to this otherwise completely subjective and empirical endeavor. There are many reports from various sources that suggest that Panzerholz is a great material for plinths, etc. For example, Albert Porter has made some Panzerholz plinths for the Technics SP10 that are said to sound excellent. |
Super-density isn't necessarily a good thing. I recently discovered that the ipe (Brazilian Ironwood) armboard I had made from my replinthed Lenco was dulling the sound to an extraordinary degree. Replacing it with an oak (and now purpleheart) armboard did wonders to open up the sonics. I wouldn't have believed it. Dave |
Panzerholz. http://www.delignit.de/canada/delignit/products/wood/delignitpanzerha.html (both thicknesses are imo 'audio-applicable') My statements are absolute hyperbole. I do trust my ears but other than personal preference, I certainly have no scientific data to back up my statements and should have stated such. I have not seen panzerholz used by itself as a plinth. Both Clearaudio and that Boomerang have it layered between aluminum. Actually googling just now I see that it was used e.g. by audiogoners for both SP10s & 301s http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1227334719&openflup&16&4 and likely before then. I should do more homework before hitting the typewriter keys... apology accepted? My reference to Schley's usage goes back to his wife coming [10 miles] from Blomberg (where it was discovered and perfected) and they've been together 30 years (?), and he professionally into audio close to 40. Be that as it may... Objectively, its density is amazing. It has so much resin / epoxy injected under extreme pressure and heat into the beech plywood that it "makes sense" to me to be an excellent material as in e.g.: non-ringing, relatively uniform in structure, and quite heavy. Maybe there is an interested reader who wants to contact Blomberg and could explain why I find it such an excellent material for audio. Again, lengths exceeding 120cm have 'sounded' all of a sudden poorer than shorter - as were that the maximum tensile strength before neglecting its positive acoustical traits. I am a trial-and-error enthusiast. You may have noted that it is also used as pin planks for pianos. John |
Delignit http://www.delignit-ag.de/index.php?id=22&L=1 is what the German's refer to as "Panzerholz." I hope I make no fiends by not reading through all the postings regarding TT plinths. I am overwhelmed. Where do I start with my quiries about tonearm re-wiring? Panzerholz looks like plywood but is specially made and originally designed for armored cars. You may have seen Suchy's Clearaudio TTs that use it in their plinths. Maybe I am off on this buy my friend Moritz Schley I believe to be the first to use this material in audio, meanwhile for several decades. BTW, it is also excellent as platform (if not exceeding 120cm length), shelf. I just purchased a vintage Sony PS 2250 and googling around came across this thread. Although the original plinth is pristine, I am 'bound for sound' and want to upgrade. Aside from Clearaudio's TTs, the first (I know of) TT to use Panzerholz was called the Boomerang (I wonder why?). My question, should I use just a simple sheet of Panzerholz (it is for all practical purposes unable to store energy, that is, dissipates energy almost in 'real time'), or should I use it layered with other materials, e.g., MDF, or what is best? The material is not low budget, it costs roughly 50 Euro-cents per square cm! Does anyone want to comment on the Sony PS 2250's original tone arm PUA 114? My cartridge is a Zu Audio DL-103R grade 2. Thanks for your helpful input and interest! John |
Incredible...A Google search for "Lenco LLC"...which is the name of a company in Newington, CT...now turns up the above April Fool's post, " "New Lenco LLC" to produce new Lenco idler turntables." Meanwhile, I'm a bit puzzled as to the inactivity here, while Lenco Heaven is lively with new and interesting material every day. |
"New Lenco LLC" to produce new Lenco idler turntables ============================================ News Release April 1, 2009 In a world seemingly gone to digital disc and downloads, the latest news in the revival of the LP phonograph record is the incorporation of "New Lenco LLC" with corporate offices in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. New Lenco LLC has a manufacturing joint-venture partner in China who will manufacture new turntables following the well-regarded vertical idler-wheel designs of Lenco AG of Oberburg, Switzerland, which built record playing equipment until it became insolvent. The current owner of the Lenco brand, the STL Group of the Netherlands, has licensed the name to New Lenco solely for equipment used to play phonograph records. Consultants to New Lenco include audiophile Jean Nantais, who has long advised stereo enthusiasts to recondition and upgrade turntables built by the original Lenco AG, some almost a half-century old, to attain results rivaling the best turntables available today. Nantais sponsored a long-running Internet discussion thread about rebuilding Lenco turntables, which became the longest-running such audio-related thread since Al Gore fathered the Internet. As a result, Lencos have become legendary. Richard Steinfeld, an expert in phonographic equipment from Berkeley CA., writes, "The cast platter machines bring the Lenco design very close to the audiophile realm, and can make for a very satisfying turntable." In an Internet article on the 6Moons website, Srajan Ebaen writes that carefully-reworked vintage Lencos have replaced high-priced turntables belonging to high-end audiophiles. "Some of these folks already owned hi-cred tables. Their hi-massed Lencos either stomped their modern decks or pulled even - for a lot less money." Longtime audio writer I. Lirpa, best known for his contributions to the lamented Audio Magazine, will serve in a consulting role to New Lenco as it plans and implements production of turntables for worldwide sale. The first New Lenco turntable is expected to be available at dealers in about a year. |
Hi Ian, Very nice job on your slate plinth. I see you are also using an RS-A1 tonearm. I have one, too. It's a great choice for a slate plinth, because no drilling is necessary to install one, not to mention that the sound is excellent despite or because of the weird mechanics. I have my slate cut, and I have the PTP3 kit and a "donor" Lenco L75. I just need to seal the slate, paint the PTP3, and then bolt it all together. I wonder what Jean is up to these days. |
Hi Lewm, You may well be right, I have a PTP3 on a slate plinth: http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=250.0 and it sounds excellent. Your Rube sounds like our Heath Robinson who did the same thing in the early part of the last century. I am not out to prove this is the best way to build a Lenco, it's my Heath Robinson machine which is turning out to be a lot of fun and sounds great too. Regards, Ian |
Re isolating the motor: that is one of the major benefits of the PTP3 in a slate plinth, IMO. And that solution does not require any Rube Goldberg devices in between the motor and everything else. (Rube Goldberg was an American cartoonist who made his mark by depicting unnecessarily intricate devices, often involving animals, to be used for simple tasks, in cartoon format.) |
Hi, That experiment over on Lenco Heaven is mine, an idea I've been toying with for ages ever since I saw a Lenco been used to drive a Linn via a long belt! That I thought was not the way to get the benefits of idler drive but the idea of isolating the motor further did appeal. I've tried using an intermediary idler to link the two platters and also driving the passive platter direct from the other by fitting an O ring around the driving platter. (The motor coils have been turned to make it go backwards.) I intuitively like the direct drive but it has a few problems regarding lack of compliance in the system so it's quite difficult to get the sweet spot regarding the pressure on the O ring but when it's "on" it sounds very nice indeed. It's a work in progress and a friend is helping me with some more elegant solutions regarding the drive mechanism but it's fun and to my ears is showing real promise. Regards, Ian |
Since there's no activity over here, I may as well direct you to an interesting project involving a stripped-down Lenco idler drive and platter, being coupled via an idler wheel to a second, passive platter on which records are played. The only physical connection between the two platters are via the idler wheel, and the long-way-round via the shelves on which the mechanisms are mounted, and the wall on which the shelves are mounted. Go over to Lenco Heaven (maybe that's where everyone has gone, anyway) and take a look: http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=486.msg4695#new |