Hi mario,
Thanks for the quick reply. There are 4 clips at the headshell. There appear to be three wires coming from the tonearm to the junction. If this describes wiring for a mono Hook-up (one speaker in the console perhaps) it seems that I should be able to simply rewire it for stereo. I intend to use the 75 arm, not sure of the cartridge... suggestions? I have done some minor repair work on my equipment so soldering isn't completely foreign to me. I have seen pics of a 75s wiring on the not strictly idler site, but I would rather have a more standard diagram of what do do. Thanks again for your help.
Widge29 |
Goughary,
If you really have the old thread filed upto this august many including me would like to have it.
Perhaps you could post it at the Lenco Lovers site that at the moment has a far less complete version of Da Thread online.
Very very much appreciated |
Widge, if there are four wires at the headshell, it's a stereo hookup there. Three wires at the tonearm to the junction might be a common-grounded stereo hookup: one hot for each channel and a shared, common ground.
My in-progress Bogen still has its factory arm. It LOOKS at first glance to have three wires from the base of the arm to a tag strip where the output cables are soldered, but it's really two small diameter coaxial cables, each with a hot and a ground; and a single ground wire. That makes a total of FIVE wires soldered to separate tags.
If yours is a three-wire stereo hookup, that's exactly the same wiring system as is used on Decca cartridges. Even the new ones with four pins actually have the two ground pins tied together.
It should be easy enough to trace what goes where, using an ohm meter. |
Hi Goughary, and welcome to "Da Thread II",
Sure glad we have another archivist in our midst. A well done coup in capturing all that! I'm sure many of us will be calling on you for copies.
As for your Bogen Lenco, Mike Greene and I both use the Sonus Formula IV unipivots on our Bogens - his is a 70 (I think) and mine is a 61 (I think). This arm is the longer tube version of the Mayware and it matches up nicely for spindle to pivot mounting distance on these early top plates. The stock mounting armhole of the Bogens will be just a couple of mms larger than the Sonus stub. This was close enough not to bother with a subplate armboard (at least, for me). Two fender washers (one plastic/one neoprene) do a fine job in securing the arm once the overhang has been set.
The VTA is a close call with these low-slung Lencos even with the Sonus adjusted to its lowest limit. The armlift mechanism will just about bottom out on the top plate depending how tall the cartridge is. |
Mario_b - thanks for your reply - I actually bought a Sonus after seeing a foto on the thread - I'll try that, but I am looking for a good arm that is not a unipivot. I see you have an Ortofon on the 75 in your system - is there any other arm like that you have tried that works on the L70?
I think that after all these years and seeing so many people try this, that at this point, everything should have already been tested - There is that great chart at the Lencoland website - but it doesn't really give much info specific to the L70 - Any others?
As for the thread - I have it all saved as word files - I'll try to see if I can zip them together and if you want to email me, I'll send you a copy. I printed a lot of it and poored through a ton of the first half, but it's hundreds and hindreds of pages, so I haven't gotten through all of it - maybe someone wants to build a new website that really takes all of the information and makes it a real easy place to get and share information... |
Hi Goughary,
AT1005, fits the Lenco L70 collar. Very easy fix, I even use the Lenco lift/lower.
Regards |
Thanks Gp49,
It looks exactly the way you describe. I'm not so much concerned with the arm wiring as such... You've taken care of that, but the deck seems to have only 1 wire running from the junction to the preamp side. I'm curious to know, if I do have to rewire this, 1. what type of wiring I need for the job and 2. To what tags should they be soldered so that I actually can hear this beast play.
Thanks
widge
|
Hi Goughary
WOW... You've saved the whole enchilada ! What dedication and discipline. On behalf of those who wish they had done the same - Thank You.
I'm guessing your offer of "zip-n-send" will attract many requests from "Da Thread" people... perhaps you'd consider sending it to the Lenco-Lovers forum, to be posted for general download ? (email attachment to postmaster@lenco-lovers.com) It may save you some time.
BTW, I too have a Sonus/ Mayware type uni-pivot arm - runnning with an Ortofon VMS20E MkII (thanks again Jean for the recommendation). It sounds wonderful on my L75 - after filling the resivoir with silicone of the correct density.
Thanks again for you diligence in archiving !!
Grant |
Hi guys, Thanks to Goughary and Grant, the whole "Da Thread" is downloadble at: http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/It is in the "Da Thread" thread. Though it is a zip. it's quite big, so be patient when downloading ;-) I hope this will put the word end on the whole issue ;-) François. |
Just to add a bit to the above, look for "Da Thread" under Technical and General. |
I just uploaded a new version of my Lenco to-do-list with added comments by our Guru JN. It's gotten kinda long but don't let that stop you from getting to work! The Lenco army marches on!
http://members.home.nl/fmunniksma/Lencotdl.htm
Greetings Freek. |
Hi everyone - thanks to Mario and all the rest for the restart of this incredible thread - although from the looks of ebay, for all those on the outside looking in, finding a usable Lenco seems to be getting pretty hard.
I have a pretty significant hum, sort of like a ground hum, that begins when I turn the table on. It only impacts one channel, and it lessens significantly when I move the arm (VPI 10) from its rest - although it does not fully disappear. This makes me think it is vibration being absorbed into the base - the pivot is indeed close to the motor as the table is turned 90 degrees (but the arm never crosses over the motor), but it seems to come throught the cartridge or arm, because when I remove the connection from the arm to the pivot, the hum stops. The hum remains the same when the platter is removed, but immediately ceases when I turn it off. The fact that only one channel picks up this hum is confusing.
Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks as always, Chuck.
PS: The thing still sounds stunning, even with this little hum - just stunning. |
That's interesting Chuck. Have your tried reversing all of your cables? I can recall some strange humm and interference scenarios in NYC years ago that I traced to dirty connectors at the cartridge pins. The fact that it is only one channel makes me think that it is tonearm wire related.
MIke |
|
Hmmm. That makes some sense. I will fool around with it later this week and see what happens. Thanks. |
Bornin50 - So I've been looking for an AT1005 and can't seem to locate one. Any suggestions? Is there a particular deck that came with that arm standard? I'd rather not buy an entire deck, but so the story goes...
Any other suggestions out there on the right arm for an L70 when you don't want to lop off the corner or drill out a new hole? I don't mind enlarging the hole that's there, but What I am looking to do on my second L70 is to end up with a good looking vintage deck that sounds really good.
So - what to use? After all these years, I imagine that everything has been tried. Most of the great stuff here has been with the L75 and L78, clearly, but who are the lovers of the L70? Who hasn't cut theirs up, found the right arm and had a good set up with proper VTA, etc?
And where did the pictures go? I keep looking for pictures but they don't seem to come up anymore.
By the way Bornin50- you gave me some advice a year ago, and though I have no idea what that advice was, I used it, and the table I built with two arms (both SME 3009) came out great and sounds pretty good...But this one isn't going to have a big SME hole cut in it. And it won't have the same VTA problems that the other has... |
Hi Goughary,
Nice to hear about the double SME, glad it worked out.
I would not want to cut an L70, I reserve that for the much more common 75. The AT could have been made for it, that was a lucky day for me!
http://www.freewebs.com/bornin50-3/index.htm
If you check out the L70 + AT1005 page, that's the first pic of my combo. The L70 is a favourite of mine, and that one is my control deck to see if my experiments on the other Lencos have any worth.
The AT1005 was popular in the early 70s, and usually paired up with motor units from Garrard etc.. A version was fitted as standard to the Leak 2001, but good luck finding one of those.
You are looking for an arm with effective length around 240mm, that puts the spindle to pivot at about 225mm. Most arms of that length are the studio units from yesteryear, EMT etc.
With a bit of filing the Regas or ADC variants can fit and are more readily available, although the problem of correct vta will always be a problem with Regas if the corner stays.
Regards |
Mosin, I for one am chomping at the bit for details on your idler arm mods. My Lenco has been sidelined for several months now due to a wobbling wheel. The wheel itself appears true, and the motor spindle doesn't feel bent or off-center when I apply mild finger pressure to it as it spins. The idler arm appears to be the culprit, which isn't surprising because I've bent it everywhichway trying to get the arm and wheel spindle straight. When I do manage to get rid of the wobble, the tension washer slips over time and I start to get a clicking sound as the wheel rotates. I can feel the "click" in the idler arm, so I'm pretty sure it's transferring to the platter. I've been thinking of threading the end of the spindle and applying a locknut as I've seen on some idlers, but haven't found the right threading tool yet. |
Billybuck,
Why don't you just buy another arm? There is usually one on ebay.
Might make life easier??? |
|
Pretty sweet! The woodworking appears flawless. You have to love tung oil.
Mike |
Kim,
Looks fantastic! How does it sound?
Could you please post details- how long to rebuild, list arm, cart, other components, type of music you prefer, etc.
Thanks, good work. |
I'd have to say that it sounds as good as it looks. Honest. It completely blows all of my other tables away. Tables that I have defended for the past several years, and they all sounded good to me, a Thorens TD125 MKII, a Denon DP 60L, a Sony PS-X7, and a Dual 1229. This thing is in a league of its own. I've been spinning vinyl like it was going out of style lately and I'm lovin it. I figure I've got 200 plus hours in the whole project, but then I am slow and I didn't have a set of plans to work off of. Alot of time was spent trying to decide to do it this way or that way, does this look better. Trying several different things can chew up time and materials, so can mistakes O;). If you add in the time I spent reading EVERYTHING I could find on it, then it enters into the obsessed category. Guilty I guess.
The arm is a Sumiko Premier FT-3 with the PIB-1 interface on the back panel, the cartridge in the picture is a Shure M91ED, but today I put on a Shure M97xE, which has been an improvement. I knew it would but I had the M91ED in there while the construction was going on and all the tweaking. I didn't want to ruin a good cart in the building process. My other components are mid-fi, My main amp is a Sansui AU717. I have the matching tuner TU 717, but I don't use it, I use a Kenwood KT 3050, it sounds better. Maybe an alignment and some mods and I'm sure the reverse would be true. I have a Pioneer RT 909, don't use it much anymore, my listening is 99 percent vinyl. I have a Phillips CDR770 player so I can record straight off the vinyl.I have a Kenwood KX 5550 cassette deck to play those 25 cent cassettes I find from time to time. My speakers are Klipsch Chorus IIs. I love 'em.
My music tastes are varied. Started out with 60s and 70s rock, some progressive, and I'm a big Pink Floyd fan. A lot of my collectable Floyd has come down off the shelf and onto the Lenco. Finally a table worthy of playing my best. In recent years I have become a big classical fan, I can't believe I missed all that wonderful music for so long, but playing catch up is fun. My wife likes 50s and early 60s rock-n-roll and some older country classics. I'm starting to appreciate jazz a little now, so we have just about everything covered. My collection is well over 5000 and climbing weekly it seems. Well enough about me already.
Back to the Lenco, as great as it sounds, UNFORTUNATELY it will not be in my possession long. I made this for my stepson David who turned 30 about the time this project started. He has a growing passion for vinyl and I thought I would help him out and give him something to really enjoy. Thank God he has been patient.
I was planning on doing another Lenco for myself, but e-pay has been pretty dry for quite a while so I don't have another Lenco for myself. (no good deed goes unpunished)
But I do have another project in the starting blocks, another idler, a Russco Studio Pro B. The Russco is kinda noisey, you can hear the motor in between tracks from a couple of feet away. When the music is playing it sounds great. I'm hoping that a large plinth will take care of that. The background isn't black like on the Lenco, but it isn't that bad either. The Russco holds it own very well just sitting on the blocks compared to the Lenco in its giant plinth. I've been comparing the two for a couple of weeks and the Russco has surprised me in that its' performance soundwise is just a hair beneath the Lenco. It will be interesting to compare the two when I finish the Russco. If it takes as long as the Lenco, then it will be next year before that happens. The build of the Russco makes the Lenco look flimsy and unworthy, and the motor is rated at 1/75 horsepower. If I crank down the idler pressure I bet the Russco could spin the Giant Lenco. It's that powerful. Just awesome. Now I just need to decide what to do with it.
Kim |
I forgot to put in the specs. 25 7/8" wide, 20 15/16" long and 7 3/4" weight- 93 pounds. Alternating layers of 3/4" MDF and 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood. Pan sits directly on top layer of BB, four long wood scres through pan into plinth and 4 bolts through the plinth into the top plate. Trim is solid Bubinga, top and sides are quilted waterfall Bubinga veneer, finish is hand rubbed tung oil.I owe thanks to 4yanks for the tung oil inspiration and rottenstone suggestion for the final coat of oil. My first veneer project. The three feet are large round headed bolts for leveling. Kim |
Hey Kim,
Looking Good! What's that beautiful gnarley wood on the sides? What are all the woods that you used? How's the Sumiko acting as a retriever? Do you have it set up with or without the dampning fluid? So many questions ....
|
Mario, this one is set up without the dampening fluid. My Ft-4 is set up with it though, I thought the FT-3 with a new Shure M97xE wouldn't need it.
Kim |
I have to add my own admiration for a gorgeous plinth Kim. And what a MONSTER!! Just goes to show that patience is indeed a virtue ;-). Fascinating account as well, great reading! Too bad that beauty will be sailing away, good luck on the Russco project. Keep adding to the idler repertoire!! Great to see the Son of Da Thread doing so well and off to a great start. A testament to the Power of the Idler and to all participants so far, and with thanks to Mario! Up here I have been slowly settling into a new rhythm with energies directed in other directions and new routines forming, but this doesn't mean the Mighty Lenco Master had no lessons for me since I last posted! On the old thread I had acquired an Audio Research SP-8 and was struggling with speaker-room issues. I tore apart my listening room/living room several times re-organizing so I could get larger speakers with deeper bass to work well in there, which I finally did. Now all my larger speakers - the Athena Technologies S3's, the ESS AMT4's and the AR2ax's - all sound beautiful with deep, tight, powerful, slamming and PRaTful bass. I am also trying a relatively easy to implement perhaps-large improvement to the Lenco which I'll describe further if indeed it is an improvement (the Mighty Lenco is so good it is sometimes hard to tell if one has achieved an improvement!). What I discovered recently with the new soundroom/speaker combo is something I will call the Kundalini Effect, after the mystic serpent which is said to lie coiled at the base of our spines: Kundalini. In living with the Denon DL-103E installed on the SME V mounted in turn on my own Giant Direct Coupled Lenco (which doesn't look so giant now I've got a gander at Kim's Lenco ;-)), and with the addition of my deep-bass speakers (Athenas and AR2ax's), I reached yet another and deeper level of musical bliss: whereas I was getting used to the hairs rising up on my arms and the occasional fit of shivers with my smaller Yamahas, with the introduction of deeper bass I now found myself often experiencing intense muscular spasms starting at the base of my spine and working its way up to my scalp, like "ordinary" shivers, but far more intense (and I mean this literally) when playing many of my records. Now the goosebump/hair-raising experience is rare enough in audio and as intense an audio experience as I've ever had in my life, but NEVER have I felt these intense spasms from the base of my spine all the way to my scalp! AND this is repeatable through both the Athenas and the AR2ax's. Though I attribute this in part to the tremendously musical ARC SP-8 (which is in audiophile terms superior to my Sony, but this is not why I'm keeping it: it's because of its intense musical POWER) and to the re-organization of my room, what I believe is happening is that the Lenco - and all good idler-wheel drives - retrieves musical energy and information in the bass which is quite simply lacking in belt-drives, and in such a fashion (gestalt, flow) that is also superior - at least for now - to Direct Drive. As with my arguments in older days that PRaT and musicality were not subjective but due to some technical aspect of vinyl engineering/replay detectable by our biological makeup (i.e. superior speed stability), so I believe that these physical/biological effects have some technical reason as well, and yes, once again it is superior speed stability, for which some elegant high-torque system is needed (i.e. idler-wheel drive). In short, until you've heard the Lenco (or other Mighty Idler-Drive) via a speaker with serious bass, you don't know just how powerful a listening experience it can be! Though My Yamahas are excellent "mini-monitors" (though quite large and with surprising bass nevertheless), they cannot offer the experience both my Athenas and my AR2ax's can offer: like the difference between looking at a Playboy magazine, and being at a Playboy Mansion party!! Now the Kundalini Effect may or may not be partly due to the new mod I'm trying out, I'll be back later this week with a full report. Which brings me to the Acoustic Research 2ax's...High-End Audio On a Budget Alert!!!: these speakers are quite simply awesome, and deserve to be ranked - despite their clunky "it can't be" looks - with the likes of Quad ESL57's and LS3/5A's. Cheap too, as most are fixated on the famous AR3a’s, which reputedly aren’t as fast as the 2ax’s and speed is essential in caputring the razor-sharp transients and SLAM of good idlers. Sorta like the Lenco story ;-). In my new soundroom, they combined the extreme neutrality of my Yamahas with the musical exuberance of my Athenas (and in musical exuberance/magic, the Athenas are simply unbelievable). And they trump the Athenas in terms of SLAM and bass POWER. The story is this: I had already settled on the ARs as being the best-suited to my new room, and decided to get off my lazy ass and finally finish the restoration. I bought new Solen caps for the crossover (simple, a 4uf and 6uf cap apiece), and took apart the pots to deep-clean them with an electronics cleaner and a stiff horsehair brush. These pots are works of engineering art as well: meant to be taken apart with a ceramic seat and a coil inset over which copper contacts rotate to give the correct resistance, it is also built so that there is only one way to re-assemble it, so it is foolproof AND lasts forever (like certain vintage idlers)! Before this, I had already had them re-foamed, as I bought them with rotten foam for 10 bucks at a garage sale. Anyway, now they are restored, the bass is quite simply unbelievable, as they aren't all that big (23 3/4" H x 13 1/2" W x 11 1/2" D), the smallest near-full-range speakers ever made. But more than just deep, the bass and percussion especially (which includes piano) emerges with lightning speed and with the heft of a wrecking ball, I confess I've never heard anything like it. Of course, having a Lenco helps ;-). And more than this, they are very neutral, image very well, have beautiful smooth highs (despite having the most primitive dome tweeters, these being the first on the market) and have excellent detail (a dedicated dome midrange). In comparison to the Athenas, they are far more neutral, in fact the MDF Athenas are the only boxy-sounding speakers I have, all the rest - being made of chipboard one and all - sound clear and clean. Which points the finger at MDF, the true reason for its near-ubiquitous use is the fact it is easily machined and finished, chipboard is simply a better material for speaker cabinets (this doesn’t apply to plinths, where MDF’s superior mass is required to keep the size down, though feel free to build total house-dominating monsters :-)). In fact, I intend to rebuild my Athena speaker cabinets in hefty chipboard (1 ½”), and get rid of that boxiness (this boxiness being relative to my very-neutral collection of speakers, the ESS being seemingly made of cement ;-)). So, while the AR's don't have the delicacy of the Quads or the scary-real vocals of the LS3/5As, they are leagues ahead of either in terms of bass SLAM, reach and POWER (and yes, bass detail), AND in any sort of percussion/power/speed/slam (including piano) up into the midrange, while being nevertheless surprisingly detailed and neutral across the frequency range. This explains the Kundalini Effect, a faithful communication of yet another Mighty Lenco Master lesson! Anyway, as with the Lenco, many would dismiss these claims due to the AR's age (designed in the Sixties, but the Quad ESL57s are older) and lack of PR, and as with the Lenco, they would be mistaken. Highly recommended for those assembling a high-end system on a budget, and despite the budget aspect (likely less than a hundred bucks), still superior to many current high-end speakers in many ways (especially that wrecking-ball lightning slam and power). A couple of well-heeled audiophiles came over visiting last week, and freely admitted I was extracting far more from the little Yammies than they were from their expensive high-end gear (they didn't know what to attribute to what, but were shaken). They LOVED the Athenas, being the good sort of audiophile who simply accepts what they hear without contaminating status/money issues (and it isn't easy not to defend what one owns simply for the fact of owning it), true music-lovers. And they haven't yet heard the far-superior AR2ax's. So that’s this rant for now, I’ll again absent myself and return to my cave to get on with other things, just had to report these experineces and discoveries! Here’s a pic of one of my Lencos, built for an MG-1 air-bearing tonearm and featured on the MG-1 website. Unlike Kim, I cheated :-): while I built and designed the plinth, the fellow I built it for has a professional cabinet-maker father who did the finishing: http://airtech.atspace.com/mg1lenco.jpg. I’ll be adding it to my system page with explanations, along with one I built specifically for the humungous JMW 12.5i tonearm (for the designer of truly High End award-winning amps and preamps I'm hoping to introduce you to in future, Lenco ownership evidently still being dangerous), done in a high-gloss red-wine lacquer by a professional lacquerer, which should serve as an aid for those contemplating a Lenco for the cumbersome (oversized bass) JMW tonearms. I'll be back when I'm certain of my latest experiments, and in the meantime congratulations to all the idler-drivers past, present and future!! Go Ye Out and Seek the Kundalini Effect. |
Hi Jean
thanks for the feedback! if it ever gets finished i'll post a report on how it all sounds. if anyone is interested progress photos have been added to virtual systems All Out Assault - 'Lenco MultiArm Plinth'. there's still some plumbing and air pumps to play with and my own arm to finish - if i can get the magnets to work properly it should be fun.
regards
peter w |
WOOO! Peter has upped the ante! Better get our garages cleaned out for some serious work this winter. |
My brother has been complaining of late about the harshness of his CDs (hard clipping). If ever the time was ripe for an analog intervention this was it. Since his music listening has been via one of those integrated Bose units, I had to assemble a complete, stand-alone system. The goal was to keep it around $200 - and with the help of the Salvation Army, we came in under.
Anteed up a rim-drive Garrard Zero-100 that I purchased nearly two years ago for $90 in my “waiting for Lenco” phase. It came with a Grado green cartridge. After pulling out about 2 to 3 lbs. of automation and a full servicing, this Garrard was still too terrain intense underneath to mount into a solid plinth. Instead, I left it on ¾” dowel stilts and put a black fabric skirt (more like bunting) around it. Made a couple of modifications. One was to place the neon stroboscope lamp on a micro-switch circuit, activated by new linkage added to the “auto” toggle, so that it stays off unless selected. The second was to hardwire directly to clips/cartridge and by-pass the contacts on the sliding cartridge tray. This allowed correcting the azimuth which was way out of whack.
For turntable sundries, I bought him a new AudioQuest anti-static cleaning brush ($20) and Silly Putty (original version) for a stylus cleaner ($1.99). For a dust cover, I used the thick clear vinyl that comes with comforters purchased at department stores. Just had to unstitch two of the reinforced seams; cut to fit depth; then restitched.
My good buddy, Stephen does the rounds at the thrifts, picking up various vintage receivers and he brought over three to audition before I left for New York. A hulking Kenwood KR-4600 ($20.00) won out for its excellent phono stage and bass response.
Speakers came by way of the Salvation Army – a pair of Pioneer CS-470 sealed 3-ways in excellent shape ($20.00/pair). The bass on these is commanding, if a little out of control. But the low-end distortion is pretty natural sounding and easy on the ears. My wife helped out with a little refinishing on the cabs and I bought some new grill cloth ($8.95) plus glue (2.95).
The big score at the Salvation Army was in August when somebody dropped off a nice LP jazz collection – Miles, The Duke, Zoot Sims etc. I culled about 20 of these – all scratchless ($20).
So for $183, a pretty sweet sounding analog system with a starter collection of LPs.
Next week, I’ll head down to Southern N.J. to deliver the goods. In the meantime, the gear came with me to New York for a three-week long visit with another brother. The traveling analog show seems to have wowed another – so I may be doing this again.
Sailing on the Analog Sea. |
My friend and I are about to embark on our plinths. 24"x"20" using alternate layers of 3/4" mdf and birchply (top layer 1/2") .There are a couple of things we are a bit unsure of. What layers are we bolting the t/t to? Is it just the top layer of mdf or the top two layers and then subsequently gluing all the other layers.Do we use the original mounting screws? Do we use any other screws as well?One other thing, where can we get neoprene sheets here in the Uk? Many thanks for your help, this is the most exciting thing I have ever encounterd in hifi.Nigel. |
Nigel,
At each corner of the table, underneath, there is a 4mm threaded nut/knob. The plinth should be screwed to these 4 threads from underneath. The trick is to get a straight hole up throught the layers of mdf and ply. Make sure you leave area (larger than the 4mm screw) so that the head of the screw is braced against the plinth. This depends on how long the screws are and how deeply they are threaded into the nut/knob. I would make these drills after you have glued all the layers together. I advise against only the first couple layers ( then covering those holes with subsequent layers) because you won't be able to get to these screws when you want to remove the plate from the plinth- I am 99.9% certain you will remove the plate for tweaking/adjusting.
Secondly, looking at the top plate from above, platter removed, there are several holes in the top plate. I am referring to the top plate under the platter with the platter removed (I repeat). Screw the top plate down onto the plinth. 3 or 4 screws are enough. The plate should be resting flat on the plinth, this being your first layer of ply routed to the correct depth.. You don't want it too high nor too low, otherwise, when you couple, or screw the plate down, you might bend, or warp the plate, causing the platter to rub against the sides of the plate.
Neoprene, which should be glued onto the plate, not the plinth, can be found on eBay. I used dynamat which is used to dampen car doors.
Of course, other folks may have done things differently, and hopefully they will share their ideas, but I hope you get the general idea.
Let us know how things proceed and email some photos. |
Hi Nigel,
Oregon’s post follows the most up-to-date recipe for the “sandwich”. These are two distinct areas of attachment: 1) perimeter bolting (4) of the top plate to the top layer of plinth – usually to mdf, and 2) coupling the platter well (pan) with wood screws to the 2nd plinth layer – usually birch-ply – sometimes with the addition of neoprene gasket material or hardwood shims to make up for any gap.
The first phase of the attachment was always part of the recipe. The 2nd phase – also known as “direct coupling” - came later in Jean’s development of this grand project. Because some (including myself) had difficulties in getting the torque just right on “direct coupling”, you might consider taking this as a two-step process: 4-Bolt the Lenco to the plinth and listen to it for a few weeks – then direct couple. This way you’ll be better able to discern any sonic improvements/degradations.
Since the bolting of the Lenco to the plinth is to draw the top plate perimeter edges into the top plinth layer, I see no reason to be locked into the bottom/up 4mm bolting. I drilled out the threads of the top plate lugs and bolted top to bottom using ¼” bolts with cone washer with black neoprene on the contact surface. This eliminated tricky alignments procedures. Initially, I drilled smaller holes to align a couple of plinth layers at a time using nails while I made internal cutouts. Once all glued up with top plate in place – I drilled down with a ¼” bit. Then recess the nut into the bottom layer by drilling partway through the bottom layer with a ½” bit. You can almost always find ¼” bolts for the correct depth.
Nothing is written in stone about how you get there as long as you adhere to the basic principles of the sandwich recipe.
Sail on!
|
Congratulations on your impending religious experience Nigel!! And just in time too, as I do believe I have a new and significant upgrade to offer all the Lenco-ers out there.
Back when I had made the first "high-end" idler from cobbling together the working parts of a Garrard SP-25 to a Connoisseur platter and bearing (in the absence of finding a Garrard 301 or 401 and before I had stumbled on the Lenco), I had married the Garrard inner platter/drive wheel to the Connoisseur platter by pouring in marine grade epoxy-resin, which is very liquid and hardens to a true glass-like hardness and consistency. Now this has been at the back of my mind for years, but given the Lenco's incredible Mightiness (even in the early days before Direct Coupling and very high-mass superior to the VPI TNT Dopogue had, as well as a Well-Tempered, STD, Linn LP12 - Hi Malcolm, Rjdcan, Mark!! - among others), I didn't think it truly necessary to go to these lengths to damp the top-plate, as the much easier Dynamat (and various other damping materials) did a good job. But now, given the enormous efforts made to either reinforce the top-plate or eliminate it, and the tremendous success of Direct Coupling, I thought I'd dust off this idea and give it a go. The thinking behind this is several-fold. I have repeatedly warned against over-damping the top-plate and plinth for fear of damping the Lenco's Mightiness in the bargain (damaging its amazing dynamics micro and macro). I have heard the difference between lots of Dynamat (there goes the neighbourhood) and a little (Ah there it is again!). Now the glass damps the top-plate with extreme effectiveness, as it literally pours into and fills all cavities (I use a caulking gun to create little walls around the bits you don't want filled, like the speed and on-switch linkages), and, by using an extremely smooth tape (I use double and triple thickness packing tape, pressed on as perfectly as possible for a perfect surface) to cover the arm-hole and other holes, the glue fills these in too and makes them flush with the surface, thus eliminating those problematic holes. But not only does the glue make for the perfect damping material (eliminating vibration/torsional movement while doing nothing to subtract the 'table/tonearm/cartridge's natural energies), it also reinforces the top-plate to an extreme degree, and so prevents any grosser vibration. The Direct Coupling does the rest. No need to cut away the body, no need to reinforce with metal sheet. But: this is not a reversible mod, so some participation and reporting back is required.
Now, as always, I was more worried about losing the musical magic than I was desiring to increase detail and various other sonic artefacts. Recall my last post where the Lenco/SME V/Denon DL-103"E" was causing severe shivers and spasms in addition to the usual raising of hairs and minor shivers the "ordinary" Giant Direct Coupled Lenco causes via the magical AR2ax's (it turns out these have AlNiCo magnets which might explain their supernatural abilities). Well, this Lenco already had the glass-epoxy mod. So, with great difficulty (the SME is not an easy arm to set up or exchange), I went back and forth between a regular Lenco and a Glass Lenco using the ARs to see what advantages and disadvantages there were, musically-speaking , as the ARs are PRaT masters, given a Lenco and suitable electronics. Sure enough, when I mounted the SME on the regular Lenco the shivers stopped, though the hair-raising phenomenon and whiplash-inducing head-banging continued. Tonight, after a week of living with the Lenco on the normal Lenco, I moved it to the Glass Lenco: the shivers, the intense spasms, the whole-body hair-raising is back with a vengeance, and a form of intense BEAUTY which is quite simply sublime.
Now, like the Direct Coupling, set up is important, as, yes, there is more detail, speed and focus, and this can lead to some unpleasant surprises, like discovering a certain album is bright, or a certain arm/cartridge combo is not as optimized as you thought. You'll have to optimize these to compensate, but what is most important, the musical payoff is TREMENDOUS. It should be, as it does more of what high-mass and Direct Coupling already accomplish, which is to hold the Lenco down nailed to the universe so as to allow that near-perfect drive system to do its work unimpeded, and with total confidence. The result is Pure Magic. If it was only in audiophile terms important, I would simply go back to Dynamat. So, for the intrepid, and in the knowledge the mod is permanent (or at the very least a total bitch to undo), I would appreciate any feedback on the success (or not) of this mod!!
Now while I have drastically reduced my participation on forums to a large extent, this doesn’t mean I haven't been very active in the Lenco War. I've stepped it up a notch: expect to see the Lenco show up at shows in the future fronting various types of equipment the better to demonstrate them (anything upstream of a Lenco or other large idler is bound to be shown to best effect!) thus showing in no uncertain terms just how potent and successful (in fact the MOST Potent) a drive system idler really is. Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler Wheel!! |
Jean,
Interesting developements! You have taken a route that I been thinking about too. However I have recently decided to go into an other direction, namely to drop the Lenco topplate altogether. I intent to have a new topplate lasercut from 5mm thick steel that is totally flat and will be glued to a ply/mdf sandwich. I hope this way you solve all the damping issues in one go. I am still working on this and don't know the cost involved yet, but I do know that most of the cost involved will be the programming of the lasercutter, so if more people would be iterested in this maybe I can order a small series instead of just one and prices will drop dramatically. More on this will follow!
Peter |
Hey Jean,
Glad to see you back. An interesting post - as always.
I did something similar on my stalled G99 project that may be of interest to the fellers. You can now buy a semi-solid two part epoxy that looks kind of like a candy bar. You tear off a chunk and knead it with your hands - which mixes the two parts. I used one from the auto parts store that is supposedly made to stick to steel. I was a little more conservative than Jean and just applied it in two spots around the rim of the top plate of the G99 - afraid of overdamping as Jean implies. (I know the Despot also sells a version of this stuff.) It may be easier to apply than liquid but I wouldn't be surprised if it has slightly different damping properties. There is another version on the Lenco heaven site where a guy used lead shot captured in Epoxy on his G99 - again one would expect different damping properties.
Of course, you dont get the benefit of patching the holes on the L75 type top plates. Come to think of though, my G99 arrived with an extra hole - I used a small autobody repair kit that included some metal screen material to back and fill it before repainting the G99. Looks stock now.
I was reading through the old thread yesterday, as captured on the Lenco Lovers site, and was amused to read all the objections and caveats regarding the Lenco's ultimate performance that people still felt back then - around page 14-16. Even the guy who I bought my G99 from said it was inferior to both his Garrard 401 and Techniques DD. When I got it I instantly noticed that it had an old worn out plastic idler and no Lenco mat. I can only assume that it probably wasnt tested in a plinth according to the "recipe" either. Although it generally looked beat to shit, it has the tightest bearing of all my Lencos.
Mike |
Peter et al, It seemed to me when I saw a cut down Lenco top plate for the first time that one could fairly easily replace the Lenco top plate with aluminum sheet. I have worked 6mm Al sheet at home and making small holes on a drill press is a cinch.
The hardest thing to reproduce on the Lenco top plate would be the slot for the ider arm - you would need to carefully secure the Al sheet and use a router with a straight cutting bit and jig. The Large hole for the wheel could be cut by a jig saw and Bob's your uncle.
However, Peter if you go forward with the steel idea I am sure that some of us here (me) would like one too and would be happy to help defray the cost. Now the question - which would sound better Al or steel?
Mike |
Hi Mike & Peter,
Gotta wonder whether the idler arm speed channel would get burred up over time with aluminum - not that I have much need to change or fine tune speeds - but I do use Peter's Post for idler wheel disengadging all the time - even to swap records.
But whatever material or design, I'm interested.
- Mario |
Jean,
I think there are quite a few marine grade epoxy resins, could you be more specific? Hopefully something available at Home Despot. And do you add any fiberglass, or just the epoxy?
Jim |
Jean,
Also, do you fill it up to the brim, or just to the height of the built in screw holes for the four 4 mm bolts? Enquiring minds want to know! :-)
Jim |
My plan is to use steel because of its higher mass. the plan is for a 50x50cmm 5mm thick steel plate that will weigh aroung 8kg. It will have place for 2 arms one of which could be 12" or 9".
I plan to replace the idler adjustmentment with something simpler. You lose the disengagement possebility, but I haven't used it for while anyway and so far I cannot find any disadvantage. I know Jean said sometime ago the disengagement wasn't really neccessary.
I will try to post a picture of what I have done so far. |
I have uploaded some pictures of topplate design in my System. |
Thanks everyone for all the help and advice.It is sometimes hard to picture written instructions. Especially as we are the types who learn best from being shown what to do.Does anyone have pictures of the various stages involved? The epoxy resin idea sounds very interesting. Might try that later on if we can pick up a few Lencos to experiment on. Is it very expensive to buy and how much would you need?
I am using one of willbewills birchply only creations at the moment. It does sound more stunning than my Garrard 301 even though the 301 is in a solid sycamore plinth and heavier than willbewills.The overall sound is sweeter and better defined, especially the bass which is very tuneful and has such clarity. Can't wait to see what the Lenco sounds like in the megaplinth.Nigel |
YMMV, but my HD doesnt carry anything in liquid form bigger than the little epoxy syringes. What ever you do, dont buy your epoxy from a marine chain store - systems like West System are much cheaper from wood working sources.
Mike |
Mario and Peter, why not do both - and test for sonics? Once the programming is done any metal can be cut.
I can recall reading somewhere that someone (a high end manufacturer) prefered Al to steel for sonics. Arthur Salvadore only recommends the TNT VI if it has the custom all Al plinth - in this case AL vs an acrylic sandwich.
Mike |
I expect the sonics of the material will be less significant due to the fact it will be glued to a very massive stack of ply and mdf. I think the sheer mass of the steelplate will be a bigger advantage. |
Very nice work Peter! You'll have to continue to keep us apprised of developments, and fire me an e-mail when you come up with a price. However, I would like to see the old sliding speed selector thingie if at all possible.
Hi Jim: I fill up to the top of the bolt holes, though it would be simple enough to plug them with something removable and fill it to the brim (but be careful not to overshoot the mark!). I also mixed in some black powdered stain. I used marine-grade epoxy, which is expensive, which I find cures to a true glass-like consistency (I know, because I actually cut myself on a broken piece!), and so is very strong and will go far towards actually strengthening the top-plate. The beauty of this is that it cannot overdamp, since it, in a manner of speaking, doesn't damp at all, but instead strengthens to prevent/eliminate resonances. Or, think of it as a form of damping, but without the risk of affecting the dynamics/energy. A cheaper alternative to marine-grade epoxy would be automobile epoxy-resins used for fibre-glassing, which sell quite cheaply. I don't think, however, that it cures to quite the rigidity the marine-grade stuff does. The marine-grade stuff is all very similar, this stuff is just like the stuff I used in Finland (and I realize now it was quite a gift, and it was a gift at the time, it's quite pricey).
Interesting account Nigel, I will be seeing just how far I can take a Garrard, next project, coming soon!! Of course, plinth materials do make a difference, and one reason I eventually dedicated myself to birch-ply/MDF is because, after trying out several exotic recipes in my earlier Lenco rebuilds, damned if the Birch-ply/MDF didn't make me stop and hear - I think (can't be absolutely certain) - greater dynamics and more even frequency response (deeper tighter bass and higher cleaner highs) or neutrality. Of course, I could be wrong, but it seemed to me this was the case. Building plinths is a lot of work, and building several in various materials just too much work. Then there are synergy issues, where a recipe sounds better because it better counter-balances a given tonearm/cartrdige combo. So I'll just trust my instincts on this one, what a swamp! Say Hi to Malcolm for us, from me especially, he was such a help in the early days with his endless finds of treasure/info.
The AR2ax's continue to amaze me: like the Lenco, most don't know how good these are because they never tried them with serious components (in the Lenco's case, with a serious tonearm). I keep harping on these because for those on a budget, it is the closest thing to a full-range high-end audiophile speaker they will get, and so which will allow them to experience that awesome idler bass AND detail and musical magic!! A heckuva lesson in music reproduction done right (assuming a good amplifier too). (And, in low whispers, those who can afford a new full-range high-end speaker, but just wanna see ust how far a few bucks can go fer a kick, or designers who want to actually learn something and achieve actual progress, shhhhhh....I won't tell anyone ;-)).
I am hoping to try out a very strange and wonderful tonearm, which is pricier than the Rega RB-300 (but not by much once the Rega's mandatory re-wiring is done), but which just might be another budget Giant-Killer (as the MG-1 air-bearing arm already is). Back later with more adventures, I hope :-)!! |
Well I have already decided to use the same plinth formula for my Garrard 301. My friend has a Thorens TD124 and we will be doing the same with that too. Should be a very interesting shoot out when all are completed.Incidentally has anyone tried stepping the voltage down on the Lenco. I know that stepping down from 240v to 180v on the Garrard helped improve things.What do you guys think?Nigel |
Jean,
The main reason I took the standard speedadjustment system out is because that way you greatly increase the contact area between plate and plinth in the important area around the bearing. speed adjustment will still be possible, but with a little more hassle. |
Came back home last night after a month of travels to find a package (with postage stamps!) waiting for me on the hall table – the plastic idler rebuild for my Bogen/Presto Lenco-L-61. It was performed by a semi-retired gentleman in Mississippi named Ed Crockett to whom I have no affiliation other than being a very satisfied customer. The rubber rebuild is identical in both plane profiles as the original. (Note: Always save as much of the original rubber as possible to send into any rebuild service) The tire is supple, yet firm. It takes about three weeks and costs $25, which includes return shipping. Anybody interested in this service can e-mail me for details.
My next step is to rethink the material for dampening the wheel. Unlike Lenco metal wheels, the plastic ones have (4) 90-degree pie wedge recesses on one side that just beg for some kind of treatment. Initially, I applied a self-adhering rubber butyl called “Kool Patch”, but I think this may have added a little too much mass to the wheel. Lately I’ve been thinking of using the roofing product called “Ice Guard” (kind of a poor man’s Dynamat) – a thin matt that is rolled on roofs in place of felt over eaves (under shingles) to prevent ice damning. It has an adhesive on one side and can be cut with scissors. The big drawback with this product is that it has a tendency to spew out tiny bits of mica, asphalt and fiberglass – hardly the stuff you want dropping into a Lenco motor. So I’m thinking of sealing it once in place on the plastic idler wheel. Any suggestion for a sealant? An enamel lacquer?
After my older brother’s jaw was retrieved from the floor while listening to the humble little analog system that I set him up with a few days ago (headed by a Garrard Zero-100 rim drive), I could almost swear that there were tears welling up in his eyes as he grooved to his old beloved Stan Getz LP. Reaching around his back, I grasped his far shoulder and intoned, “I know… I know. It’s the long lost sound of analog that’s come back like an old friend”. |
