Just to add a bit to the above, look for "Da Thread" under Technical and General. |
Here's a revised list of things to do, original courtesy of Munkie_NL, additions, revisions and comments mostly by Johnnantais from the original Home Despot thread. Sorry for the length but it's still much faster than reading 3700 posts :-)
The Lenco thread on Audiogon has grown into a 3700+ post monster which would take a lot of free time to read entirely. Free time you could use to turn your old fleamarket Lenco into a monster TT! So here is a simple to-do list. Usual disclaimer: "The management won’t be held responsible...", etc. But DO try this at home!
1. Take your L75/78 apart, the chassis off the plinth, remove the springs. Remove the tonearm. If your new tonearm has its own armlift, remove the Lenco armlift as well. IMHO the original Lenco arm is not worth putting time and effort into. Make your own unipivot arm if you want to. Or order a Decca International while you still can...
2. Take out the main bearing by removing the 3 screws around it, unscrew the little security screw at the side of the bearing house and take out the bearing. Take care not to loose the little ball at the bottom. Clean it and put some new fat on it. Possibilities include Mobil 1 grease, “rifle oil” or Mobil 10W30.
Jean Nantais writes: "for lubricant, I polish the bearing proper with metal polish, making sure all vestiges of older lubricant are washed away, I wash out the sleeve with engine cleaner (mineral spirits are good too) and make sure all is clean and dry, and then top up with Mobil 1 synthetic oil (or other synthetic), and find the platter can easily spin for close to a minute and a half (sometimes two) with but a push!"
Re: polisher, Jean Nantais writes: "Stop the Presses! I just used THE most effective metal polisher I've ever tried, superior and quicker than resorting to a cocktail of sandpaper and steel wool! I always steer clear of expensive "AMAZING" substances, and in this case paid $2 for a simple metal polisher called "Cameo", meant for scrubbing/bringing back the shine from pots, pans and sinks. Couldn't resist. Just tried it for the first time on a Lenco platter, and this is the best result I've ever gotten, actually shiny, and it only took five minutes!!! I should market this and sell it to audiophools for $25 a can. It's called "Cameo", an "Anti-Tarnish Cleaner for stainless steel, copper, brass & aluminum", and is apparently made here in Canada. Pure no-Bullshit results, I can't believe it (I was hoping of course, but doubtful). Looks just like Comet, and contains "sulfamic acid and surfactant", so if you can't find Bullshit-Free Cameo, then look for a cheap Bullshit-Free substitute with sulfamic acid and surfactant. Don't get it in your eyes, if you do you're supposed to rinse them for 15 minutes!!! Yee-hah!!"
3. Remove the 4 screws at the back of the motor and gently pull the back out. The motor axis turns on 2 little spindles, 1 at the front and 1 at the back, in little bronze bushings. Clean the bushings from the inside with a rolled up paper handkerchief with alcohol. Clean and relube the spindles with Mobil 1 synthetic grease or molybdenum grease. Carefully reassemble the motor. Clean the big spindle with a paper towel and alcohol. Bornin50 took the whole motor assembly apart, I didn’t. It’s up to you.
Jean Nantais writes: " Cleaning and optimizing the motor was as effective in increasing clarity and focus as marrying the plinth to the top-plate. I would consider this mandatory, and it has no negatives and causes no shifts in balance. To do this you have to go all the way (I compared a motor with the ends simply oiled, to a motor with the ass-end completely flushed and re-packed with new grease and oiled but the nose simply oiled, to a motor with both ends flushed and re-packed with grease and oiled; and the order of noise was, respectively: noisiest, middling noisy, quietest), even if it means buying a fairly expensive tool ($15-$20 US) for only this job: Snap Ring Pliers, to remove the snap ring which holds the workings in place at the nose of the motor. [You can also use small needle nose pliers] When disassembling the works at either end, keep a piece of paper handy and make a diagram of how the workings go, in what order and what orientation. At both ends of the motor casing there are brass balls drilled through to make the bearing bushing: I used a piece of string soaked in solvent (paint thinner, motor cleaner, etc.) to remove any baked-on grease from the inside of the little bushings, and then ran dry string to remove what was left. I re-packed the workings with new grease (molybdenum or Mobil 1, placed wherever metal meets metal, and packing all empty spaces to damp resonances, even of the springs), after cleaning them in solvent (the springs, brass discs, etc.). At the nose end there is a screw which as 4yanx noted must be screwed in just so to reduce noise. Its secret is that inset inside the hollow screw is a little metal piece which is spring-loaded to absorb and kill off vibration of the motor spindle: it is a good idea to remove the tiny little pieces (keep a bowl nearby!) and clean them also in solvent, and clean the inside of the hollow screw using a piece of string. Rig the motor so it is running (place a jumper at the switch terminals, 2 and 3 where the white motor windings are attached on the barrier strip on the motor casing, and run an AC cord to the wall to positions 1 and 4, waiting until it is screwed into the terminal before plugging it in!) and sitting on a hard block of wood so you can hear the buzzing (louder or quieter), and screw the little nose screw in until the motor is actually whining against it making noise, then back off until it reaches the first silent point. Use the attached nut to lock it in place, you'll probably have to do it a few times to get it right, be patient."
"Finally, adjusting the motor core does work, there is an optimum position for the intrepid. Like Ronnie I first did this while it was plugged in, but when I became plugged in too (ouch) I ceased doing it this way and adjusted, re-assembled and plugged it in, took it apart adjusted again, reassembled and plugged it in, until I got the quietest point. To do this undo the motor casing via the four screws and take the ass end in hand. You will see four screws holding the motor core in which the motor spindle spins. You could simply tighten them down (they are likely loose) for quieter operation, or you could be daring (or mad) and undo them and play the re-position game until you reach the quietest orientation [moving the motor core so that the armature is centered should get you close]. Doing all these things results in a large improvement in sound quality, with no penalties. At the very least the flushing and fresh grease, re-adjusting the nose-screw, and tightening the core screws, is mandatory! BIG improvement!"
4. Put a drop of oil on the idler wheel spindle, or take the spindle apart, clean and relube it with Mobil 1 grease – grease the arm spindle, slide on clean Teflon washer, put a little grease on that, oil the shaft (1 drop Mobil 1), slide the wheel into place, grease the end, slide the other teflon washer into place, grease that, put the holding clip back on. Push it all the way down, and then push slightly back with your hands (you want minimal spacing for freedom so the wheel doesn't wander) until the wheel is free. Clean the rubber with Rubber Renue or similar. Presto.
Jean Nantais writes: "For the wheel, I similarly clean the bearings, and even soak a piece of string with engine cleaner and clean out the inside of the bushing on the wheel itself, clean both teflon washers, dry everything off, put some Mobil 1 grease on both sides of washer #1 and slide it on, then Mobil 1 oil on the spindle and mount the wheel, then put grease again on both sides of the other washer, slide it on, and fasten it all with the little clip (be careful not to lose the clip, sometimes it goes flying!). You want just enough play the wheel spins freely, not a micron more. And be careful with the idler-wheel arm, it is quite easily bent, as I just discovered to my astonishment, do not apply any pressure to it, proper geometry of the wheel and performance depends on it. Make sure the sliding post where the idler-wheel attaches is well damped with grease, above and underneath, to prevent ringing. Slather the slider where it moves in the top plate track with grease or Vaseline."
Don’t put fat, grease or oil on the rubber of the idler wheel. Don’t touch the rubber with your fingers. Get a Lenco with a metal idler wheel. Damp the idler wheel arm with Teflon tape or plumber’s miracle tape. Make sure the idler wheel runs very close to parallel to the outer circumference of the platter. Also wrap the idler wheel arm with plastic flexible damping tape or spray with car undercoat.
5. Damp the chassis from the underside with whatever suits your taste. Jean Nantais who started the Lenco Thread uses Dynamat with good results, as does Steve from the ultimate Thorens site The Analog Department.
Jean Nantais writes: "In the meantime, lift the Mighty Lenco out of that Crappy plinth and mount it on bricks, which will bring about quite an improvement. Then judiciously apply some damping sheet of some sort to the underside (and I mean judiciously, don't damp the ever-loving crap out of it and kill the goose that laid the golden ultra-dynamic, ultra musical eggs), and listen happily until you get up the nerve to apply drill and jigsaw to plywood (think of it as paper and scissors, and you'll see it's not so difficult). I first listened to my first Lenco (for fault of finding any Garrards which I had hoped to find) for a few months sitting up on metal stilts with no plinth, with a Rega mounted in the original tonearm hole. It utterly blew me away, and I knew I was in the presence of Greatness. If you like the original plinth, then remove the bottom, get rid of the springs, put some sort of feet on the corners to lift the edge off the shelf, and screw the Lenco down solidly to the original plinth. This will approximate bricks." [8/21/06]
6. I put some cloth around the spring which holds the idler wheel against the spindle during play, and on the rod which holds the idler wheel. Jean Nantais replaces the spring with some elastic material. He puts vaseline on the rod that holds the idler wheel between the rod and top plate. You can feel it vibrating when you put your finger on it during play, with the platter off.(See top pic)
7. You can replace the power cord with a better, shielded one with a better plug.
Jean Nantais writes: “I removed the rather large wire running from the switch (of the L75) to the motor, and replaced it with tiny 24-ga. solid-core (it has many uses) to prevent this as a route of vibration from the motor to the top-plate and platter. I also placed some Dynamat where the wire solders to the electrical switch to prevent the wire touching the metal top-plate, stopping this contact point.” He also warns against heavy power cords hanging from the motor suspension and thus preventing it from moving freely – he uses 24 G solid core between power switch and motor, 20 G solid core between motor and AC. Bolt the 20 G to the plinth using some Sorbothane around the wire at the cable retainer to stop vibration from the motor going anywhere by this route. Assuming terminal 1 is furthest from the main bearing, the AC goes to terminals 1 and 4, switch wiring goes to terminals 2 and 3, where the capacitor is. Grease the on-off switch links where they touch the top-plate to prevent rattle.
8. The distance from the spindle to the center of the hole is 212 mm on the Lenco L75/78. The Decca arm fits into the original hole in the Lenco chassis, even the arm geometry is right. However VTA is off, with the armbase pushed down against the mounting ring it’s still tail up. I solved this by putting an extra mat on top of the Lenco mat. Better, but a bit drastic, would be sawing off the upper right hand corner of the Lenco chassis. Make a removable armboard from birch multiply, maple etc. Now the arm sits lower compared to the platter, so VTA is in the ballpark. Added bonus: the arm doesn’t rest on the vibrating Lenco chassis anymore, but on the big plinth. (See Willbewill´s 2nd creation) Rega RB250/300 arms have a spindle to pivot distance of 222 mm, so in the original hole alignment is way off even with the cartridge way back in the headshell. When you’re the lucky owner of a 12" arm you don’t have to saw off the upper right corner of the chassis, you can go for the "Garrard Look" :-) Or place the arm BEHIND the Lenco chassis like on 4yanx´s latest creation. See Blueintheface´s handy table of arms, remember though effective arm length and pivot to spindle distance are not the same...
Comments on the Rega RB300 by JN: "REGA ALERT!!! I've mounted my Rega arm tonight - took me about a half-hour to make an armboard and pop the Rega in: great! - and achieved perfect geometry and VTA. First mounted my Shure and it did sound better than with any of the other tonearms in terms of detail and frequency extension: in fact, the Lenco/Rega is a MONSTER, and a very accurate monster that let's you hear every note, inflection and permutation of the lowest of the low frequencies. Here I challenge every record player on the planet to do better or even to match it! I thought it was digging a hole in my cellar floor. (Be aware I have changed amp and speakers in the last few months). Macro and micro dynamics are also much better, but in terms of PRaT I prefer both the Audio Technica and the Decca International...with Moving Magnets."
"While the Rega sounds somewhat pedestrian and soulless and intellectual - if very detailed and accurate - with MMs, put an MC on it and it transforms itself into a monster of PRaT, SLAM, SPEED, and all-around dynamic fireworks! And all the while sounding silky and smooth and in control."
Comments on the Denon 103 by JN: "But the combination of perfections is there in spades, the tonal neutrality of the Shure V15s allied to the slam and speed of the Deccas. Now my Grado Platinum on whatever tonearm on the Lenco still has that all-enveloping welcoming sound which is like coming home after a loooong absence, and in this sense I still favour it, but the Denon is the closest thing to overall sonic perfection I've heard."
"But I would say that the Ode to the Denon DL103 is the most perfect turntable and exciting turntable I have ever built/heard, there being an EXTREME synergy between the MDF/birch-ply/neoprene rubber plinth, the modded Rega RB300 (which tames the very slight tendency to brightness the DL103 can have in certain set-ups), and the plain vanilla DL013. Change any one of the ingredients, and you change the results (which may be better, but may not)."
9. Clean the mat with Rubber Renue. Glue the Lenco rubber mat onto the platter using 3M 77 spray can contact adhesive. Cheap and easy mod. Gets you more clarity and detail. You can try any mat, I did, I’m totally into mats, glass, felt, cork, cork/paper spotmat, in any combination, you name it. I had to admit JN was right on this one (too...). An alternative is Herbie’s Way Cool mat at $50, recommended by Dave Pogue, Albert Porter and 4yanx.
10. Make a BIG plinth for your Lenco and bolt the chassis onto it using the 4 threads from the underside. Most Lenco modders use layers of different materials to get effective resonance damping. You have to cut out the shape in every layer you need to give place to the chassis. Leave some room underneath the tonearm and around the motor. The motor must swing freely in its suspension and it gets hot after a while. Otherwise make the plinth as tight and massive as possible without resonating chambers in it. You can either glue and clamp or use screws to hold together during gluing, which speeds up the process.
Jean Nantais’ formula uses ½” MDF top layer, ¾” birch ply second layer with 1/8” neoprene rubber gasket between bottom of the top-plate in contact with the birch-ply layer [Direct Coupling]. Bolt the Lenco by the 4 top bolts, plus three screws at 3 different points/neoprene gaskets between round part of top plate and birch-ply layer. Below that alternate ¾” MDF and ¾” birch-ply.
Jean Nantais writes “For those watching waiting for the Truth to come Down concerning the Best Plinth before beginning their own projects, be aware that I anyway have not found huge differences (in fact none I can reliably identify, though I haven't tried hard), that it is the simple birch-ply/MDF plinth which is responsible for the success of this Lenco/Idler-Wheel venture which speaks for its effectiveness, and so I advise you to keep it simple and do-able, and stick to the simple recipe which, as I remind everyone once again, has conquered many a High End Belt-Driver already.” [6/23/05]
“I find anyway that the simple birch-ply/MDF combination has the best balance of attributes - specially dynamics and neutrality - I've found, Corian and plasterboard etc. notwithstanding.” [9/13/05]
“MDF by itself does not sound good; the birch-ply by itself does not sound good, but the two together produce an incredibly neutral and inert platform which allows both Lencos and Garrards (as I proved to my own satisfaction a while back) to speak in their true voice, free of colourations, favouritisms and constraints. Glue perfects the bond, simply bolting these together does not come close to realizing the potential of a CLD mix, in fact the reverse. It may not have the cachet of exotic materials and woods (and so not justify obscene costs), but this combination is ultimately extremely effective. I've played with all sorts of mixes, and this is the best in my experience, and it is practical as it is also very common. All of this has been worked out over the length of this thread, and in a piece I wrote for Lenco Heaven a long way back, and to a certain extent under my "system" here on Audiogon, though perhaps I should revisit and edit this, as I have come to settle on the birch-ply/MDF combination, for a combination [of] economic, sonic and practical reasons. This is not to say it can’t be improved on, but at an increase in difficulties and costs.” [12/29/05]
“As to the big new plinth you are planning, I truly believe now the best combo overall is birch-ply/MDF (effective, dynamic and neutral), but more than that, more mass truly does make, like Direct Coupling, a large difference to the ultimate sound quality of the Lenco: the heavier/massier the plinth, quite simply, the better the Lenco will sound, so don't be afraid of weight!” [1/26/06]
“Currently for Ultra-Refined Ultra Slamming Giants I am recommending 23" x 19" x 6" of pure CLD plinth; feet and Lenco and tonearm add to that height. Play with the dimensions whichever way you see fit, but this has a pleasing and MONSTROUS symmetry” [3/07/06]
“In discussing the point and design of these particular CLD plinths with him, he immediately recognized the Russian birch-ply [14 layers including veneer] (available at some Home Despots) and explained that it was guaranteed to have total coupling/adhesion of the individual layers without air-pocket or resonant spaces. So THAT's one reason why my plinths sound so good, all along it was a superb birch-ply to use for exactly the purpose of creating an inert non-resonant plinth!” [3/30/06].
“I use the birch-ply/MDF recipe because it is overall the most neutral, dead, "non-participatory" combination (neither adds nor subtracts) I have ever tried.” [5/04/06]
"I have rebuilt Garrards, Thorens TD-124s, and of course Lencos, and they all sound excellent on high-mass plinths, which with effective coupling absorbs and kills off noise while increasing focus the more mass there is. Since I don't believe in the quasi-mystical mumbo-jumbo that one big idler likes Material A while the other prefers material B (though why this should be is not explained...I think material A compensates for a system's colourations better than Material B, so it's a tone control which will later cause problems), then I believe that what works for the Lencos will work for the others (which I remind everyone I have actually built into high-mass plinths to great effect). The larger the mass and more effective the coupling the better the sound, simple. I make CLD plinths to maximize neutrality, in my case a combination of Russian birch-ply (particularly dense and air-bubble-free) and MDF, as after trying several recipes I have settled on it for best and most consistent result. Others like to play with Corian or plasterboard (drywall), chipboard, solid hardwood and others. If it's CLD (constrained layer damping, differing materials bonded together by adhesive for maximum marriage), then the end result is likely to be similarly neutral, assuming materials which are fairly neuttral to begin with." [8/26/06]
For the motor, JN writes: “a larger space around the motor will allow air circulation which will prevent heat build-up. The space I leave around the motor is not an enclosed resonant air space, but simply a space, an absence of material, being open all the way to the ground, and surrounded by a solid plinth, kind of like the Oracle open-air design, but much more massive. Now I own a Maplenoll with a fluid damping trough, which came in several iterations. They originally came with a rather narrow trough which you would think would make no difference from a large trough. Wrong: the walls of the narrow trough actually reflected the vibration the fluid was damping back to the paddle and into the cartridge, which was very audible (a disaster). The improvement was a much wider trough, which was a vast improvement. So taking my experience with this trough (enclosed spaces reflect energy back at the source), and a page from Oracle (a good idea to have a solid skeletal design which allows vibration to escape, and which itself vibrates only with great energy, as it is very thick and solid), I designed the plinth as it appears in my and Willbewill's photos. The Lenco plinth as I have designed it allows space around the motor, which also has the added advantage of allowing air to flow around it. Narrowing this space negates the air circulation, and in my estimation will create a resonant air space after all, as the walls are too close to the motor [5/06/04].
For armboard, JN writes: “I personally love the sound of maple as a tonearm board (sweet and open!), and purpleheart was good too. I hated the sound of either pure MDF or birch-ply tonearm boards, which is why I always sandwich the two (and conventional plinth wisdom be damned). No experience of any other hardwoods. Obviously, mahogany sounds great, as the Grado Woodies demonstrate.” [6/21/05]
Bolt to the plinth using four 4-7mm bolts, and three wood screws through the neoprene gaskets into the birch-ply layer.
re: Direct coupling (the circular bottom of the metal "pan" is directly touching the plinth underneath either with a neoprene rubber shim or to the wood using wood screws to make the connection (Birch ply recommended as the touching layer),
Jean Nantais writes: "Krenzler, avoiding rubber does not apply to your Lenco: the woodscrews pass through the rubber to bite into the wooden plinth itself, and so couples the Lenco proper to the wood of the plinth with extreme effectiveness, the rubber merely providing the needed support and damping of the ringy metal top-plate. In other words, your Lenco top-plate is directly coupled to the wood, not the rubber, which acts as a simple shim. In my own comparisons, there was a change of flavour but no sonic penalty as-is with rubber. I've heard that particular Lenco several times in John's extremely revealing system (modded Quad ESL 57s, rebuilt vintage Quad tube amps or original Marantz 8, either AR SP9 MKII or Dolan preamp), and it was chock full of PRaT, detail, bass and dynamics. The Oracle Delphi MKIV was sold, the Sota was sold, a Linn LP12 passed through at lightspeed, and even the Technics SP10 MKII in 80-pound plinth (vs the Lenco 40 pounds) couldn't match it. Perhaps a better balance in your system could be achieved if you substituted 1/8" backboard (of the sort which is nailed to the back of shelving), which is a wood product similar to MDF. I've done this before too in my early experiments." [8/23/06]
11. Decouple your Lenco. If you have a springy wooden floor, if you can get it on a solid shelf against the wall do it. I placed my L78 on rubber pods at first, changed to aluminum cones/dishes now, way better soundstage and depth. Others put it on metal balls rolling between 2 half-round "holders", 1 on the underside of the Lenco and 1 on the shelf it sits on. (See this longish story about a Garrard 401 project, bottom of page)
Jean Nantais writes: "On the subject of footers: they cannot be divorced from the platform they rest on, so results gleaned by situation on MDF (a sh**ty-sounding material on its own) is not necessarily meaningful on a different platform. I would suggest that the wood blocks accomplish this mix of materials MDF needs to sound good, while acorn-headed bolts make the Lenco expose to a much greater degree the sound of MDF. Try clamping that MDF shelf to another material Mike! My own shelf is acrylic glued to marble via two-way tape, resting on Tiptoes." [8/06/06]
12. I cleaned the underside of the platter with a paper towel and alcohol. Take your time to let the alcohol evaporate, alcohol eats rubber. A clean platter gives the idler wheel a better grip.
13. Ground the chassis of the Lenco by connecting it with a ground wire to the ground post on your preamp together with the ground wire of the tonearm. This should get rid of the hum.
14. The aluminum plate that covers half of the metal plate can be removed if desired. This is done by using a heat gun or hair dryer. Take your time and the aluminum can be removed without destroying the nice grey paint underneath. Once removed, the rubber glue can just be pealed off and automobile wax can be used to restore its hidden beauty. An extremely important note here: If the aluminum plate is removed, one loses the protective plate that covers the paint and metal where the speed lever touches the metal. One must be very careful not to let the level rest against the metal when adjusting speed. If care is not taken, the lever will scrap off the grey paint exposing raw metal. This should not be an issue since the outstanding Lenco motor once cleaned and re-lubed is incredibly stable and one will not have to constantly adjust speed once it is set.
Another point that needs to be addressed: the brass circular housing that holds the on/off switch is held in place by a small square piece of metal. It must be removed to completely remove the aluminum top plate. One must take their time when prying off this square holder. It must be reused to secure the brass housing when putting the switch back in place. Take your time when reinstalling this piece of metal. You will need some elbow grease and a flat head screw driver to set it properly. If not reinstalled correctly, your switch will begin to wobble over time and the entire table will have to be disassembled to fix it properly.
Ouch that was a lot of work READING this To-Do List wasn’t it? Let alone DOING all this stuff! Yes, especially item 11, making the plinth was a lot of work, I spent a whole week on woodworking alone. But, if I can do it anybody can, I got 2 left hands, no proper tools, and no workshop. I have seen Lenco plinths on the Web that are works of art; don’t let it scare you off. Making a plinth that gets the job done soundwise is not difficult. It’s just a lot of work! But worth it, the Lenco can give you glorious vinyl sound on a low budget. Good luck! |
I have to say that 4yanx has been probably the most innovative plinth makers on the old thread, as well as having some of the most gorgeous craftsmanship. Probably the first to have really heavy plinths, the first to have the arm mounted on a separate "tower" connected to the turntable by a base, also I believe the first to carve up the top-plate into a different form depending on the overall design. Wish I had saved some more of his posts, but who knew! A bit fancy for my taste, but it would be nice if he could add a link to some of his work before taking his leave, it would give lots of ideas for some of the more ambitious future builders.
On the other hand, Jean's basic stuff is just the thing for those like myself who barely know one end of the drill from the other and want a good reliable design to build with minimum fuss. I think there's room for both in this thread. |
Another long post. Data mining my saved posts from Home Despot I, here are some comments from posters comparing their Lencos with other turntables. Note that Dopogue used to own a VPI TNT Mk II, Alpert Porter owns a Walker and compared it with a basic Lenco (i.e. pre Direct Coupling, super-high mass plinths, etc.) with Decca arm, and Tunein4fun owns EMT 927 and 930 turntables:
06-01-04: Dopogue
Thought it was time I added my bit to this saga. Jean and I became cyberfriends some while before he started this thread, but I had zero interest in a Lenco because I have this high zoot VPI TNT with a JMW arm, Grado Reference/Reference cart, Boston Audio Mat, and an SDS to make it all sing, plus a couple of other tables, as seen here:
But Jean made a lot of sense re the Shure V15VxMR (which has now replaced the Grado) and the wondrous Music Boy interconnects, among other contributions to my sonic well-being. So, long-story short, I asked him to build me one and bought a Rube Goldberg-ish (but endearing) SME Series IIIs arm and a third-tier cart (Stanton 881S) for it.
The whole shebang came together here last Friday, so this is very much an interim report, but damn if it doesn't beat the TNT rig pretty handily -- more alive, more punch, more PRaT, more "there." And quiet as a tomb, whether or not I have the subwoofers switched in. I find all this REALLY hard to believe, but there it is. Lots more experimentation ahead, especially with carts.
I've been playing with mats -- two Spotmats I made (thanks, Malcolm), a Linn felt job, two older rubber ones (provenance unknown), and the Boston Audio graphite mat. I had high hopes for the last one, and it turned out to be the worst of the bunch, really hard-sounding and dead. The Lenco mat sounded best of all (the felt one wasn't bad), so I figured Jean really knew his stuff and I'd follow his advice and GLUE IT DOWN. Hated it, thought it drained the life out of the table, couldn't wait to get the contact cement off it (not my favorite indoor sport). Jean said I should have waited overnight, but I was afraid it would be impossible to remove then. I may try again with something like rubber cement, but for now I like it much better unattached.
Like I said, an interim report. But for anyone still on the fence about the merits and potential of the Lenco, I'm confident in saying that this is the real deal. Really.
Guess I'll have to set aside an afternoon and read the whole damn thread. Best to all, Dave Pogue
06-08-04: Dopogue
Follow-up on my battle of the titans. My "titans" are a Lenco L78 (refurbished, with 8" plinth by Jean N.) with SME IIIs arm and Stanton 881s cart, vs. my VPI TNT (early model) with JMW 10.5 arm, SDS, Shure V15VxMR cart and Boston Audio mat. Both are fed through Music Boy ICs to a new (to me) custom-built phonostage that is based on the NYAL Moscode SuperIt but with extensive mods and a tank-like tubed power supply.
Verdict: The TNT setup sounds kinda boring.
This is the reluctant conclusion of a golden-eared audiobuddy who loved the TNT so much he wanted to be first in line if I ever sold it. So much for that.
He was struck by the increased PRaT but mostly by the very natural and addicting detail the Lenco provides.
Next step: cartridge switching, once I get back a second SME armtube that's out for rewiring. This is SOME turntable. Dave
07-08-04: Palmnell
I am a long time Linnie. I have owned LP 12's for 28 years. My current Linn has an Origin Live DC motor and a Cetech carbon fibre subchassis. On a whim I bought a GL 75 and put an Origin Live modded Rega 250 and my beloved Koetsu Black on it. Holy shit, better bass, much better leading-edge dynamics and pretty remarkable imaging. This is all without a plinth. I'm just resting this beast on two lead-filled boxes. I am about to make a decent plinth and see where it goes.
07-12-04: Albertporter
I have nothing new to add to this thread except my excitement.
My Lenco / Decca / Shure V15 rig running into a EAR 834 P is not only great, it is stunning! As this continues to break in, I become more in love with it. This afternoon I played "The Streets," Original Pirate Material ('02), and I swear there are some things it does better than my Walker / Koetsu / Aesthetix rig. Sure the more expensive rig has finer graduations of detail, is more transparent and refined, but the Lenco provides a solid base, timing and contrast to the music that is addictive.
The fact one could purchase 50 of these Lenco rigs for what my reference TT [Walker] costs, no doubt clouds my judgment. There is no way I would have never considered this little inexpensive Lenco had Jean not started this thread. My sincere thanks to him.
By the way, a comment about rumble and noise that has come up in these threads from time to time. My new Soundlab Ultimate Ones arrived Saturday and I played them for at least six hours today. Alternating between the Lenco and the Walker. U-1's are capable of 24 HZ in the bass and there is no rumble and no noise from either of these turntables. Pretty amazing considering the Lenco was 150 bucks.
10-15-04: Albertporter
My Lenco is doing just fine and I am delighted with it. Now that my EAR 834P phono stage and Shure V15 cartridge are thoroughly settled in, the guys in my Tuesday night music group laugh out loud in delight at it's performance. We listen to it, my SACD player and my Walker during the same evening session. There is certainly more pleasure in the Lenco than SACD.
Certainly the Walker is better, not surprising since it and matched phono stage cost $50,000.00 more. [NB: Walker Proscenium Signature turntable, Prologue Air Suspension base, Walker Linear Air-Bearing Tonearm $30,000, Walker Audio Motor Controller $3000, Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum cartridge, $5500, Aesthetix Io Signature Dual Phono Stage $14,250] Those with less radical systems than mine would do themselves a favor by rebuilding a used Lenco and saving their budget for amps, speakers and loads of LP's.
I am grateful you started this thread. There is NO WAY would have ever considered this lowly table, that is until you challenged us to give it a try. Likely this is the best bargain in audio. A few hundred dollars for a used Lenco table, Decca arm, and Shure (or other) cartridge and you have a serious (but fun) music machine suitable for high end playback.
01-21-05: Gilbodavid
hello jean and 4anx. very exciting, and totally vindicating my experience. plain Jane Denon dl103 on OL Silver and my red beast fully finished Lenco ROCKS!! through Leak tl12+s and Quads! One with holes in it! like nothing I've ever heard, including $20,000 Avantgarde Duos with Schroeder tonearm and vastly expensive everything else!! Listening to the Stones "Black and Blue" and they sound like bloody artists. And blow me down I've just realised that your PRaT is actually the jiggy jiggy factor. Its like the roll of each note suddenly hits you and swirls through you, streams energy to every part of your body and cells go PING, and you have to MOVE. Sorry to all those who don’t understand subtle technicalities. And it wasn't there properly til I lowered the Rega to perfect vta (to within one washer width) and got the horizontal plane angle of the arm and the tightness of the arm to armboard screw right. The Rolling Stones are artists for gods sake!?!! Never before have I known music to sound like this. Its even an unmodded ear 834p phono (massive room for improvement) and twl's tweak still to do!!. I'm still going to get a Black Widow and Grado platinum, but for $40, the Denon 103 is truly jiggy jiggy. MY GOD _ Ian Drury and the Blockheads now, I'm going to explode all over holtyhelen who's a grooving mass of female pulchritude on the couch next to me... this is better than being a teenager!!! Long live the Lenco, long live jiggy jiggy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARRRRRR!!! My god "route 66" Stones again. not even a good recording!!!! ARRRRRRRR!!
03-29-05: Gilbodavid
Hello all from blackberryland. Had weird experience yesterday. Went to friend’s house where one of my systems is set up, to collect Leak tl12+'s for me, and give them my old Quad 306 amp instead. Plugged it into Quad ESL57's and a modded Lenco with Alphason Opal arm and one of those old Goldring mm carts, and a Phi phono stage, and it sounded as good as with the Leaks. Then the weird bit. I took out my £120 precious metals interconnects and put in some unburned in Petra Music Boy cables... Oh my God... I can safely say it was the best recorded sound I have ever heard. stunning and super weird. The best previously was $20,000 Avantgarde Trios with high end German table and arm and exotic valve amps at a demo. My system simply devastated it. All the traits Jean gives to Petra cable were there, with airiness and gorgeous imaging and texture and PRAT in musical, blissful abundance. For the first time ever I played classical music, Rodrigo’s concerto, and I was there. This is weird. Very nicely weird....Cos This system was $800 speakers, $8 interconnects, 30 cents speaker cable, $160 amp, $150 home made passive pre, $200 Lenco, $110 arm, free cart, and $500 phono stage. Total $1928.30, which we all know is not a lot. In this room this system is awe inspiring. Why? Synergy? Luck? Magic? Voodoo? Quads have no bass? Who cares? Last night I was there! Friend has assured me that today its still happening. Weird... With 2.5mm copper speaker cable. What will happen if I do 24 gauge & Dave's no phono plug trick?
06-21-05: Flyingred
I finished my solid American ash Lenco this evening! Influenced by the first 6moons Garrard 301 article I thought it would be so much nicer to build a plinth from solid hardwood.
I bought some ash and American cherry. Because the ash was cheaper I used that first. I started after Jean's solid coupled destroyer experiment so routed the top layer so that the plate under the platter could be screwed to the plinth.
The ash is 20mm thick and I have made it 4 layers deep, with a layer of black sound damping material between layers 2 and 3, with a separate armboard so that I can swap tonearms.
I decided to use a miter saw so that no end grain is showing.
I fitted my old Fidelity Research FR64s, that my Linn dealer condemned for having worn bearings in 1996. Of course the bearings are fine - some people will say anything to sell a tonearm! First cartridge in is my re-tipped Koetsu Black, again mid-80s vintage.
I have had a fantastic evening's listening. The Lenco is everything claimed here and more. As forecast by Jean, there is bass in abundance (not a noted Koetsu characteristic), fantastic dynamics, energy, slam, PRaT, call it what you will, and the detail and clarity are stunning.
I have been listening to some serious money turntables over the last few months and the budget Lenco beats most of them - I'm not sure yet whether it's better than a Galibier I heard a few weeks ago but it's pretty close. I'll be better able to comment when I put the DL-103 on the FR64.
There's no doubt in my mind that the Lenco is preferable to the Teres 265 and 360, Nottingham Spacedeck and Hyperspace, SME 10, Kuzma Stabi and of course my old Linn.
07-07-05: Musicdoc
I bought an LP12 with Valhalla and Ittok initially and was quite pleased for a while. for me (and my ten thumbs), set-up issues plagued that particular table. I heard a basic Teres setup and promptly sold the Linn as the sound quality bested the Linn by an embarrassingly large margin. I then had a Teres 245 with Moerch dp-6 and Allaerts mc-1b. Unfortunately, my Teres had problems of its own (recurrent motor controller faults, cracked base that had to be replaced, etc. etc.). I now use a modified Lenco L-75 with Moerch dp-6 arm and Denon DL-160 cartridge and have achieved what is easily the best sound (and reliability) to date.
12-09-05: Rnm4
Well I suppose I'll pony up now.
It's been about three weeks since I became the proud owner of a fully rebuilt and replinthed Lenco-78, which Jean Nantais himself worked up for me, in exchange for some other gear I had that was of interest to him. Here's the story.
I had been occasionally peeking at this thread for quite a while, and supposed that these old idler wheels must sound right nice, but that the claims for their superiority to vastly more expensive, newer, more famous designs must be rather overblown. I had the chance to hear a couple of Jean's designs in his own system, and was very impressed. I had a bit of cash lying about, so got a second hand L78. I had wanted a second table for a second system anyway, and thought I'd see how this sounds compared with my Nottingham Interspace/Interspace arm combination in my Nait3/Flatcap/ Proac Tablette Signature 50 system.
With Jean's help, slowly, stage by stage, the table got reconditioned. First a general, if superficial clean and set up, with a good but unknown old MM cartridge. The pace and drive and boogeying musicality of the Lenco were immediately apparent. But the sound nothing like as detailed and clean as with my Nott. I had made the mistake of leaving the suspension on the Lenco engaged. When the suspension got bypassed, there was a huge improvement. Everything tightened up -- imaging, attack and decay, slam, resolution throughout the entire frequency range, and more extension on top. But still, the Nottingham had more sparkle and space, and, if less drive, then yet better extension on top, and resolution.
Next stage, full cleaning and recondition of the motor on the L78, and some damping materials added. Things get really close now, the Lenco excelling at coherence and PRaT, the Nottingham good at those, but still more resolving, clean and satisfying.
Then more damping and replacing the stock IC's with Music Boys. Big difference again. The Lenco is approaching the Nottingham in resolution and imaging, getting nearly the same high frequency extension, and clearly bettering it in bass boogy and getting the musical picture to cohere. And this is the stock plinth and arm, as well as an unknown 20+ year old MM. (All along it's been a Shure M97HE Era IV on the Nottingham -- also got in trade from Jean, and simply fantastic). Well obviously it's time to sell the Nottingham and go the rest of the way with the Lenco.
This table is leagues ahead of anything I've had in my system before - and it sets a tremendous standard. I now have an assured means of evaluating the rest of my system as it evolves, and the quality of the vinyl and music I am buying. This TT is not imposing limits. More important, I get a whole new level of enjoying the music.
07-13-06: Tunein4fun
Hello Jean,
Thanks for your inspiring input. I do agree with a lot of what you say. But when you say: "Each must adjust his 'table combo to match his or her system, these are like complex instruments in their own right!" That turntables in general are amongst the most complex creatures out there, as far as "getting them right" is concerned, I would be the first to admit, but to say that each must adjust his own table combo to match their own system, I feel is perhaps stretching it a bit. My own tables (Garrard 301 (all types), 401, TD124, EMT 930st, 927F, 938 and 950) all have been with me for many, many years, and been played through a lot of shifting electronics and speakers during this time. They are all very good TT:s and consistently performing accordingly, regardless of the rest of the system. Others, like SP10, LP12 and others, have proved to be, at least to me, more inconsistent and perhaps "system dependent". Therefore, when I play my Lenco, that's what I'm looking for, a consistent, solid performance, that can compare with the above machines. My opinion is that if you have an "ultra-solid-table" and the system still doesn't sing or sounds perhaps poorly balanced or whathaveyou - then it's not turntable tuning that you should be thinking about...on the other hand if you know that your system sounds balanced and performs in a satisfatory way except when playing vinyl, then...the TT probably is where it's at.
So methinks that it's all about keeping track of what your point of reference is, and preferably just introduce a single system change/mod/alteration at a time to be able to tell what was responsible for what at the end of the day. This method is, however quite time-consuming as we all know, and can test anyone's patience, but still...
When I listen to any TT (including the L75 in my new plinth), I compare it to my above "references", of which, the EMT 927F, sitting in its EMT shock-absorber frame, on overall balance is the best TT I have ever heard so far.
At the same time, I already know just how good a "good" Lenco can sound, and I gather from what I've been reading in this fantastic thread, that many contributors feel that Jean's method brings this machine right up there, with the very best - so you bet I'll persist - far too important stuff to "ignore".
After all: MUSIC MATTERS MOST! or in short; 3M! - so there's no room for "chance" or "leaving well alone" - more like FULL THROTTLE on this one (;-)
Thanks again for the great input - I'll keep posting any progress I might make.
Thanks Mike for the clarification - greatly appreciated!
Cheers
Peter
07-25-06: Tunein4fun
SUCCESS AT LAST!!! Have worked almost around the clock on my Monster L75. Done it all (apart from gluing the mat to the platter...I will, I will...) - tried various bolting patterns (2 - 12 woodscrews in the pan) and added the top layer to the plinth - the 4 mm bolts are discarded and in their place are sturdy 40 mm woodscrews - drilled up the bolt-holes straight through the chassis. Did some complementary work on the chassis damping, put an Ortofon AS-212 with a Denon DL-103D (playing through old UTC 1950's vintage step up trannies (Petra Music Boys) into my 1958 EICO HF-85).
What can I say, Jean (!!!) and all you other guys who've been so supportive and helpful: GOBSMACKED!!!
I truly couldn't believe it when I heard even the first note being played (it happened to be soft piano entertainment/easy listening piano) - the AIR around that single tiny gentle chord...and then it just went on and on and on...PRAT...DUUUUUUUUUUUDES!!! - now I know what you mean - I had imagined something darn good, judging from the very positive comments from so many contributors - but it's better still; it's just all there (including some minor electrical noise, that I need to sort out) and in such a beautiful way.
I'm humbled and feel obliged to thank Jean again for creating and researching (working-really-really-hard-over-a- long-period-of-time) this "DIY" venture into pretty damn serious TT teritory - THANKS MAN!!!
As many of you have read; I tried this and I tried that and I was (almost) ready to call it a day - but hey, had I put this much work into it already, I just had to see it through, and I'm truly glad I did. To anybody considering taking this project on, I can just say WOOOWW!!! and GO FOR IT!!!.
Cheers
Peter
07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Hello Krenzler and Peter and thanks; the "differences" from "before" are many; I took the time to experiment with the number of screws in the pan - I tried to go about it in a "systematic way", tapping as I went along: I started off with 2 screws, located in the two original existing holes, that are used to bolt the L75 down to its original plinth (they are at 12 & 6 o'clock. From there, I used other existing holes and added some of my own whenever I felt I didn't get the "thud" I was looking for in that particular area. I ended up with 12 screws in the pan - they are not large screws, and they have been tightened so that when tapping the pan anywhere (i.e. in any area supported by the plinth) I get the same kind of "thud" i.e. it sounds uniformly the same (as far as I can tell anyway).
I'm sure that the same result can be had, using another number of screws, positioned differently from mine. As mentioned previously; earlier I had left out the top layer of the plinth (i.e. the ply layer with the "big round hole" - for the pan - in it). This meant that the chassis part, surrounding the pan was "sailing in the wind". I know Jean mentioned to me that he - with some player at least - had heard very little difference soundwise, coming out from bolting down that particular chassis bit, so I didn't think much of it. What I found on my Monster L75, was that adding more chassis damping material (almost completely filling it up) and bolting down the chassis edge (i.e. the outer lower edge of the entire square chassis) made a huge difference. Jean earlier quoted Shindo, who said he used woodscrews to bolt the Garrard to his plinth instead of the original Garrard bolts, 'cos of the superior coupling he got that way. So I thought I've got nothing to lose, trying the same trick. The sad part is that I did most of these "changes" in one go, so it's impossible to recap what each alteration actually accomplished. However, I intend to make another MegaMonsterL75 (inspired by Jean's reports on the improvemnt of adding even more mass) and hopefully on that one, I will be able to keep a log to try to find out what does what.
There is no material whatsoever, between the pan-bottom and the plinth - it's bolted solid to the wood.
Peter, mounting the Ortofon arm, wasn't all that difficult - I enlarged the original Lenco armhole, so that the Ortofon base could pass through it (these bases come in taller and shorter versions - I used a shorter one). I made a tonearm-board from an LP12 tonearm-board - this is only supported by and coupled to the plinth in the corners via quite small woodscrews (just gripping and then a tiny bit more). I will post some pix later.
The Monster still isn't properly supported or "ideally located" but it doesn't seem to care.. it simply produces stunning music (;-D
I was playing some Jimmy Smith this morning - an old 1960's US Verve (stereo) - geeeeeeez...I'll say it again; I'm GOBSMACKED!!! It's beyond "audio", as Jean put it (;-)
07-26-06: Reinderspeter
Tunein4fun,
Out of curiosity, where does this leave the Lenco in comparison to your EMTs?
Peter
07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Reinderspeter...curiosity killed the cat...and I have yet to A-B these machines, but my very convincing gut feeling is that the Monster is superior in quite a few areas (the most "natural PRAT" I have ever heard for one). The first time I heard a 930 play, it was an eye-opener for real, and I just had to have one. It took me a very long time to track down a 927, but when I finally got the chance to hear one play, I was impressed out of my shoes - it was so much better - the best TT I had ever heard overall - took me an even longer time to locate one that was for sale... The feeling I have, listening to my Monster is much stronger still - I really do lack words, but to use some; gobsmacking, flabbergasting, astonishing, mind-blowing - I-HUMBLY-ADMIT-I-HAD-NO-IDEA; it's that sort'a out-of-this-world kind'a thing - by far the biggest kicker in my entire audio-life (been into "audio" for 35 years and especially TTs). This is not a "linear" improvement on other TTs - it's a GIANT LEAP for vinyl reproduction. So I would say; THE MONSTER RULES! I will eventually, for fun or "for the record" do some A-B when time permits, and post whatever results I get here.
Short version: The Monster is simply one heck of a TT!
Plans for the MegaMonster are already in the back of my mind - some ideas lurking about, and a couple of things I'd like to try. Please note that this attempt is not at all prompted by any urge to "improve" on the Monster (I'm not touching the Monster...it's faaar tooo goood for that) - simply to have fun - yup (;-)- afterall that's what life's (almost...) all about methinks.
Even with the plain or "lowly" Shure M75 the Monster excels and shines in the most enchanting way, regardless of what I throw at it music-wise - a fact that probably will put whatever little "credibility" I have, on the line with some people, but hey; so be it!!!
I realize that I have used some pretty strong wording in this post and if somebody reading this, thinks that I'm exaggerating or that I'm "over the top"...think again (;-)
KUDOS JEAN!!! |
Over the years, there were a lot of other posters who contributed to the original Home Despot thread. Doing some more data mining, here are some useful hints and tips from them. This is by no means all inclusive, sorry for any omissions but I didn't save EVERYTHING!
07-23-04: 4yanx
We used Mobil 1 synthetic grease in our L78 to hugely successful effect. We, too, found traces of grease in the plastic sump under the main bearing and replaced it, after a thorough cleaning, by putting a good dab in the hole before replacing the bearing (we also slicked the shaft with synthetic oil and soaked the felt ring above with the oil as Jean suggest). Also disassembled the top and bottom bearings on the motor spindle and re-packed those with the same grease. Spins like a top and super quiet. Think we paid on the order of six clams for a can, which should last the lifetime of me, my son, and his son! :-)
10-24-04: 4yanx
We haven't tried the ceramic bearing yet, maybe if some has an extra, we'll try one. Too cheap to pay shipping for a 30 cent item! Ha!
We've gone a couple of ways on lubrication for the bearing. My son tried something that seems to work as well or better than anything we've tried, though whatever works better, we'll try!
He coated the outside of the spindle using Mobil 1 synthetic 75W-90 oil with a soaked rag. Then he put just a dab of Mobil 1 synthetic grease between the bearing and the spindle, then on the end of the bearing. After carefully sliding the spindle into the sump, he soaked the felt ring around the spindle real good with the oil. Works smooth and quiet.
While on the subject of lubrication, this is a note about the adjustable "pin" that holds firm the top bearing and spindle in the motor housing. If you remove that pin you will notice that on the very end is a cupped piece against which the tip of the shaft rides. This cupped piece can be removed and there is a spring underneath. On the two first Lencos we had, this piece must have been stuck from accumulated grime and we didn't even know it existed. The last one we soaked in spirits and when we were cleaning it "popped off". We further soaked and cleaned and now this "springed cup" allows much better "buffeting" of potential up/down movement of the shaft and allows the pin to be more securely tightened with out impinging upon the rotational movement of the spindle.
11-17-04: Dopogue
My Lenco L78, re-plinthed and breathed upon by Jean hisself, has been sitting in my equipment rack on one of my favorite resonance reducing tweaks (two hockey pucks per corner, sandwiching cork discs). Sounded simply magnificent with its SME IIIS arm and ADC XLM Mk. II cart. But there was a little subterranean stuff coming through the speakers and when I tapped on the shelf below the Lenco I got a "bonk" (a really musical bonk, but a bonk regardless).
After trying various fixes, the hands-down winner proved to be superballs (4 @ $.99 at my local variety store) sitting in Vibrapods. The Vibrapods don't do anything but position the superballs and keep the Lenco from rolling off the shelf. The result: absolute, blissful silence. Even with the subwoofers on. Even when playing mono LPs with a stereo cart.
The only downside was my inability to find 4 superballs of the same hue (aside from day-glo orange and pink, which I thought was a bit much). So we have pale green ones in the front and sort of salmon-ish in the rear. They have smiley faces on them, but I positioned them so they're sitting on their faces.
If you have any resonance/rumble problems at all, you might give this a try. It really works.
11-18-04: Dopogue
I've long been a devotee of the approach 4yanx recommends and am successfully using a Mapleshade combo (cones/maple block/Isoblocks) under a Sony SACD player, after trying a couple of other things. But for some reason my Lenco really likes the superballs. I'm only a day into this setup and my opinion may change, but I'm hearing better bass, more openness and transparency, and other plusses along with the blessed silence. Note that superballs are not soft and are lot closer to golf balls than tennis balls. They may not work for you; they did for me.
Regarding mats, the only one I found I liked better than the stock mat is a heavy sucker that used to sit atop a Technics SP-15. Sounds great and supports the LPs at the same height from outer edge to label, unlike the concave stock mat. Dave
11-18-04: 4yanx
Our experience has been markedly different with respect to plinth support, though different plinth materials on different racks, etc., may very well produce different results. We have found that anything with "give" when used as "feet" gave us less than optimal results (Vibrapods and the like). We found the best results using three brass cones on pucks and found especially good results using old Tip-Toes (the original ones introduced by Steven McCormack way back when). In our experience we realized a much faster sound with a much more taut lower register. As always, however, it pays to try a variety of things to see what works best in individual applications.
We recently ordered and tried one of Herbie's Way Cool Mats and found it superior to the original mat glued to the platter and a Ringmat that we had lying about. At $50, it is not super cheap, but not as expensive as many mats out there, either. Upon grazing this thread, I see where Albert made previous mention of this mat. Worth a try if you want to spring for something different than the stock mat.
A small qualifier. When I mentioned "superior" regarding the original mat/Herbie mat comparison, I might have used too strong a word. We found it better by a very small degree. Specifically, we found the top end to be slightly improved and a perhaps little more "sparkling" in the presentation (which we like). Who knows, though, we adjusted the VTA based on the different mat thickness and this could be the reason for the change (it was that subtle). Unless, this is what you seek or unless your stock mat is trashed, you may or may not want to spend the dough on one of these. They look "way cool", though! :-)
I will hasten to add that we previously tried quite a number of mats and mat combos (Ringmat, Boston Audio mat, cork, felt, glass, etc. etc.) and found the glued-on stock mat to be the best of that bunch.
12-07-04: Willbewill
4yanx - I have used screws (and glue) on one of my Lencos and also a Garrard 401 I had, it enables one to build without clamps plus you can start finishing/sanding etc. earlier. I find no sonic difference between screwed and unscrewed - the screws don't bridge too many layers, usually just two (depending on thickness of layers).
04-27-05: 4yanx
Our latest Lenco, the red 78 in my system link, has two recessed cavities for the placement of armboards. We routed the "through-the-plinth" holes to accommodate a variety of spindle to pivot distances – with an arc scribed based on spindle-to-pivot distances of 208-230mm. We cut and filed six pieces of Corian to the exact same size as the recesses. These pieces were then stacked together and four mounting screw holes were drilled in each at the same time using a drill press. Using one of the pieces as a template, we scribed the location of the mounting holes at the bottom of both recesses. We then drilled pilot holes and countersink rounds and sunk threaded screw anchors in each. As we need an armboard for a specific pivot-to-spindle distance (we’ve now done four), we scribe the location of the arm pillar hole and drill, as required. Each piece of Corian is then backed with damping sheet material, wood veneer, and brass and/or aluminum sheet until it is the appropriate thickness to become level with the top of the plinth, once placed in the recess. We are currently experimenting with different constrained layer damping materials to see which combination gives the best result. Now, the Lenco will allow two arms at any one time, but changing arms is a simple matter of removing four Allen-headed nylon screws, plopping in a different arm and armboard, and re-affixing the screws. Works very well.
04-27-05: 4yanx
As a further aside, we've found that the proper "tension" placed on the nose end screw is such that it the cupped end just seats onto the end of the rotor spindle and allows free travel of the "springy" doo-dad (less than a millimeter). Too little tension causes slop and too much causes restriction. It is a very fine line and impossible to "see". It helps when you get it right to have one person hold the motor casing with one hand, and a small screwdriver set in the slotted end of the screw with the other, while a second person FIRMLY tightens the hold down nut. In our experience, tightening that nut otherwise almost always results in the screw tightening a bit along with it and mucking up the works. Too, if the nut is not secured tightly enough, it backs off - the screw along with it. On out first couple, the doo-dad was so frozen that we didn’t even know it was supposed to “give”. Getting the proper tension was a BEAR until we discovered that.
04-27-05: 4yanx
Jean, I would venture to assume that you've considered this, but don't forget about the little cupped doo-dad at the bottom of the "nose end" screw on the Lenco motor. These are designed to "give" up and down within the shaft of that screw (brilliant). A couple of ours were so "stuck" with crud that they didn't give at all. A good soaking in spirits loosened them. We have done five motors and all but one are silent as a tomb. On all, we disassembled everything and replaced the end bearings with Mobil 1 synthetic grease. Did a couple of early ones with Valvoline red grease and heard no difference but thought the synthetic would last longer.
04-28-05: Rjdcan
Fellow Lenco tweekers here is an observation on the idler wheel noise issue. I've found that its important that the idler wheel runs very close to parallel to the outer circumference of the platter. I know the outer circumference of the platter is curved and the idler wheel is straight but I hope you can visualize what I mean. On one of my Lencos this was not the case until I gently bent the idler wheel arm to insure the parallel tracking. If the wheel is too far out of parallel noise will be heard when the platter turns at 78 rpm, at least that was the case on my table. I've noticed variations also in the angle orientation of the motor spindle relative to the idler wheel on my two Lencos. Hence the need to bend the idler wheel arm in one case. This will help with faster start up also. Its seems more important to have the idler wheel parallel to the platter circumference then having the idler wheel perfectly perpendicular to the motor spindle. In a perfect set up you would think that both the parallel and perpendicular criterion would be met but that has not been my experience on one of my Lencos{the other is pretty close}.
Reinderspeter {love that name}, I wrapped the idler wheel arm after reading your post with a plastic flexible damping tape and it does reduce vibration in the arm. You can verify this by removing the platter and holding the arm while the wheel is spinning on the motor spindle. It's too soon to know if it sounds different but any reduction in vibration has to be a good thing.
05-02-06: Billybuck
I just want to put in a non-affiliated plug for the German guy on eBay who's been selling thrustplates for Lenco and Thorens tables. Mine arrived to the U.S. in less than a week via luftpost. It was an exact match for the old one in my Lenco, highly polished, and perfectly flat (though there seems to be some debate as to whether the dimple seen in many Lenco thrustplates is the result of wear or design).
Last year I purchased a ceramic ball bearing that was an exact size match for the original. Combined with the new thrustplate, this combo took the platter from 11 rotations (after powerdown from 33 1/3) to 97(!) rotations. That's a serious decrease in friction, which I'm assuming is a good thing.
06-08-06: Dopogue
Regarding footers, my giant Lenco (Jean-built) rests on three rounded bolt heads (the long bolts screw into the base of the plinth and provide easy leveling) which sit on a 2x18x22" maple platform which sits on 8 "dead balls" (1 1/2" dia.) which are in turn sitting in rubber lavatory drain gaskets! Same effect as the Ginkho balls/platform but much cheaper and, IMHO, better. I can pound on the shelf under the table without eliciting a murmur.
06-09-06: 4yanx
Mike, the Symposium platforms do work well. I made a few using a modified recipe as can be found by searching the AA site. Others like the Neuance shelf, but we've never tried one. The actual feet beneath, I think, depends on what is below the feet. Thus, some say hard, soft, in between etc. We tried umpteen cones and found that the ones that worked best, and ones that I thought a bit surprising, were the old Mod Squad Tip-Toes. Go figure. Next best were DH ceramic cones.
06-09-06: Dopogue
I just ordered another 8 dead balls (also aka unhappy balls) from Educational Innovations at www.teachersource.com. They're sold in pairs with happy balls, which bounce. The dead balls don't. Guy said everyone wanted to buy just the dead balls and he couldn't figure out what was going on, since they normally sell to educational institutions :-)
They're $6.95 per, and sold as Choositz Decision Balls (don't ask). Best resonance dampers I've ever tried, and the cheapest by a long shot.
08-01-06: Mario_b
Thanks Jean. This whole endeavor has been such a pleasure. A wonderful ball you got rolling here some 2 ½ years ago.
Another nice break with my Lenco today. Boy, this heat has driven me to my basement of discoveries. All signs of any bearing rumble have completely departed my two-armed Lenco L-75 with that new shiny, undimpled thrustplate and polished ball offered on the ‘Bay store from that guy in Germany. I have no affiliation with this gentleman. Must have has some unseen pitting, or an old thrustplate out of true, because this upgrade took out the last vestiges unwanted sonics. Yessir, total silence on non-signal passages with the gain cranked. (Well, you can hear the mains from my Prima Luna tube amp.) A very gratifying re-tune of my first Lenco.
My thanks to TuneInForFun for reminding me in his post that we all have to play doctor, once in awhile, and thump the chest of the patient. I made successful coupling torque adjustments based on this sonic feedback.
Spent a few hours tuning both arms and cartridges. The Rega 300 with its $50 (NOS) AT continues to flood my system with unimagined detail and authoritative bass. Must wonder what this Lenco/Rega will sound like with a real cartridge (like the DL-103) in it.
The Ortofon AS-212 sounds better, but not where I suspect it should be. It gets crowded and perturbed with complex orchestral passages. I’ve tried a Grado Red and a Micro Acoustic 100e aboard. While it’s possible that neither is best suited for the Orto, I continue to think that its complex mounting has allowed its potential to sink off somewhere. Nevertheless, the arm is quite at home with Jazz, Pop, R&B and other closely miked recordings. At some point, I may just remount the Ortofon without its lifter and fabricated metal armboard, but for now, it's on to other builds: Lenco L-61/Sonus IV/Shure V-15 vxmr in marble (top layer): Metzner Starlight/Sumiko IV in Standard Plinth: Presto Pirouette in Sphinx sloping plinth base with island arm. As for Rondine the Mambo Queen from Rek-O-Kut, I’m going to wait to see what Jean has up his sleeve on his Rondine build.
Cheers! Mario
08-05-06: Mgreene
Thanx YANX. I finally got around to re-tweaking my first giant Lenco. THe things I wanted to try were:
1. Replace the motor cap - used an ERO 1845, no difference. Still getting a pop on shutoff.
2. take some tension off the arm mounting nut - couldnt tell any difference.
3. Install the german ebay metal thrustplate - as Mario said, it seemed to offer an even quieter background. Haven’t had time to do a nother spin-down test.
4. Install the acorn nut feet a la Jean - seemed to get a little more bass and a slightly better delineated sound stage. At this point no negatives - still cant understand why the brass cones were so bad except that they were not screwed in.
5. Try removing the direct coupling screws - this proved to be very interesting. On the tip from Peter, I tapped the bottom plate and discovered that where the screws were the tap tone was very consistent an only a little different elsewhere on the plate.
So, both before all of the above and afterwards, I listened with and without the screws. See my system for two new pics showing the rubber used to fill the gap for direct coupling and the position of the screws (note the rubber washers).
I'll cut to the chase. Neither was terrible. With the screws, the stage was a row or two closer and tighter imaging - more of a hard edge to the images. Without the screws the first thing I noticed was a more open treble and better PRAT and slightly better bass. THe images had a more diffuse edge as in life. All in all with the bottom plate sitting on rubber but not screwed to the plinth sounded more like real music.
I am hoping that #2's bottom plate will meet the plywood so I hear direct coupling with screws.
Mike
08-06-06: 4yanx
IMHO, the "feet" material which is best suited to particular project table depends on the materials used in construction, the nature of the armboard, and the materials/rigidity/location of the stand on which it sits. As is frustratingly often the case, trial and error is required to make the ultimate solution. In our room, and using the materials we use, there is no other footer better than the old Mod Squad Tip-Toes. OTOH, we found that solid cocobolo puck sunder those same cones smoothed out things to much better effect on a friends DIY solid metal wall mount stand. I’ve also seen applications where those rubber-cork-rubber sandwiches placed directly between the plinth and a maple butcherboard platform worked best. Bottom line is that one finds what works best for them – and the horse will be very much alive ! :-) |
Hi, Fishwinker,
Another suggestion, I have run into a Lenco that actually had the cone assembly bent so that the rotor/cone assembly wobbled sideways, which also caused the idler wheel to wobble back and forth. To diagnose this, take the platter off, tun on the motor and see if there is any wobbling in the idler wheel or rotor/cone. If so, unless you can manage to straighten it out, you'll probably need a new motor, unfortunately. |
Jean,
Also, do you fill it up to the brim, or just to the height of the built in screw holes for the four 4 mm bolts? Enquiring minds want to know! :-)
Jim |
Jean,
I think there are quite a few marine grade epoxy resins, could you be more specific? Hopefully something available at Home Despot. And do you add any fiberglass, or just the epoxy?
Jim |
Boy, it's been dead around here :-).
Just a quick note about the original Lenco arm, in case anyone is still using it instead of tossing it in the trash. In Stereophile Vol. 2, they published a reprint of an article from Hi Fi Sound (British) which tested 12 tonearms including the Lenco L-75, Ortofon RE-212, SME 3009-II and Sony PUA-237.
The Lenco arm had an effective mass of 23 grams with a 14 gm headshell.
By comparison, the effective masses of other arms:
Ortofon - 17 gm using the light 1 gm mounting plate in an 8 gm headshell
SME - 10 gm, 5.5 gm perforated headshell
Sony - 28 gm, 10 gm headshell plus 8 gm weight to balance it for a 7 gm cartridge. |
Stefanl
I believe that both the US/Canada and European models can be used with either 120V or 240V just be changing the wiring connections, probably equivalent to a universal power transformer that can be used for 120V or 240V AC by connecting the windings in parallel or series. The difference is in the rotors for 50 Hz versus 60 Hz. If your motor is wired for 240V then dropping your voltage to 160V would be the equivalent of dropping a US/Canada wired motor to 80V. Dropping yours to 90V would actually be like dropping the US/Canada to about 45V.
Also, I don't think that the 120V model is any quieter than a 240V motor, because the wiring connections are different so that the power the motor puts out is the same. Again, it's like whether you connect the windings of a universal power transformer for a 120V or 240V supply, the power output doesn't change. |
I have a couple of Lenco platters, one has ridges around the rim inside and the other doesn't. No way you could design a "universal" Lenco motor using rim drive, you'd have to drive the underside of the platter.
But the other question about the Garrard motor, when the original motor is off the rim drive wheel is moved away from the platter to prevent a flat spot - that's one of the functions of the linkage.. The Lenco doesn't have that problem because the wheel is metal with just a thin rubber coating. How does the Verus motor prevent flat spotting if it is rigidly mounted on the Garrard? |
So Jean, you're not going to give us the weight? You could at least give us a hint, like calling it the "39 cent" mod, or something like that, in line with the original "cheap" ethos of the original thread. |
