@lanx0003 Sub placement matters. There are online calculators. Plug in the room dimensions. It’s a lot like speaker placement. The corner will make the sub sound boomier.
From my limited experience, my poorly setup sub (REL T5x) makes an appreciable difference on most music. Yeah it might not sound as clinically pristine as my speakers alone. But when listening to rock, pop, hip hop, electronica or funk music some boomy bass makes sense. You hear that during live concerts as well. On acoustic tracks with double bass the sub also makes the music immersive.
However, the bass on some of Panda Bear’s tracks (Dolphin) really makes the sub behave uncontrollably. Maybe it’s intentional? I don’t know. It’s like being in a pressurized cabin taking off.
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lanx0003
Did you settle on REL, SVS or?
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@lanx0003 Listening to my bookshelf speakers this evening, and dude, the way this speaker does strings. Anything with strings, including a piano. It’s the beryllium tweeter. It’s truly unbelievable. Again, for the money.
I’m not even using a sub and there’s nothing missing. Which is hard for me to believe, personally.But it’s true. Would it be better w/ a sub? Absolutely.
Apparently, they chose to use their best version of their in house made 7" doped paper cone woofer when they designed them.
They weigh close to forty pounds a piece. Yep, 37.9, I just checked.
The key with these babies is driving them with some really good electronics. And what you have would do the job real well. The reviews said, in essence, that they like to be driven hard. just like my old Ducati. : ) Not joking.
The Ducati mechanic here in KC, Mario, was a riding buddy of mine, and he’s the one that told me. He said they run their best when you keep the rpm’s up high. Like all the time. The reason is because it was a real high torque motor. It made it’s power in the upper part of the power band. You can imagine how much fun it was to wind that baby up. Especially quick in the twisties. Makes my heart pang a little bit, just thinking of it. The dry clutch sounded so freaking sexy. It was cool.
But these speakers are very similar, in a sense. You don’t have to play! them hard to get good sound out of them. I know some speakers are like that. As a matter of fact, these sound real good at low levels. But when you have a LOT of power behind! them, that’s what will really make them sing. You have to drive! them with lots of power. You’ll understand what I’m saying if you decide to score a pair: you kind of have to hear it to believe it. And, of course, if it's good, clean power that's what will make them really shine.
Are you anywhere close to KC? I wish you could come by my place and hear them.
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@tunefuldude
Thanks for the recommendation. I was surprised that I missed it or maybe I stumbled across but failed to include it in my list. It is quite interesting that Stereophile compared it fairly with the Dynaudio Confidence C1 (which is high on my list) sonically but at a less than half price. I will explore that option.
@dwest1023
It seems that I am wrong about S40 this time since not only you but also others attest there is no midrange congestion issue with it. Will resume the exploration or even a quest on it. Its red birch high gloss finish is simply stunningly gorgeous.
@m-db
This might be another long-debate subject and I do not intend to open the deep discussion on this. I have seen different advocates for the sub. placement. Some people said the corner is the worst but the well-known REL lead designer John Hunter advocates for it. You mentioned by the main speaker is the worst but I have seen others end up with it being the optimal location which also makes sense to me. That is the location I have experimented and chosen after hours of moving it around. Admittedly the issue can be further mitigated or addressed with modern DSP technology but I guess the optimal location is still room dependent.
My point is that, even you have settled with the "optimal" placement, the speed and texture from a separate sub. controlled by its built-in amplification can not be easily matched / integrated with the main speakers controlled by your system amplification. When listening to the music having quick bass tempo, that disparity in speed and texture of tone bet. them just severely bother me. Sandy Gross who has already retired from Golden Ear mentioned it is almost impossible to seamlessly integrate them and they chose built-in subwoofer design instead.
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@tunefuldude I would personally drive to your home with my OGYs LOL
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I can not believe nobody around here talks about Usher BE 718's.
I scored a used pair for twelve hundred, including delivery. I won't even try to describe the to you, but I will tell you that the beryllium tweeter makes them super special in the high frequencies.
And I want to personally challenge you, to find a bookshelf with a better bass response, for the money.
You should do a quick search and read a couple of reviews.
I believe they would stun you and I'm not joking.
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lanx0003 , I would not put a lot of stock in what a reviewer says. I own Goldenear BRS, Kef, LS50 meta, Buchardts 400rk2 special editions, and I have a pair of Dali Minuete SE on the way. I have not heard the Dali's yet, but all of my speakers have their plus and minuses, yet I like each one. It does not matter how much you spend on speakers, amps are never perfect. My special 40's are my favorite and I notice no congestion in the mids.
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["lanx0003 I sort of shy away from adding a sub, primarily because I do not believe a separated sub could easily match the speed and texture of the main speakers. I had tried at least three times (SVS and REL) but none of the sub. I have tried provide me satisfactory results."]
I’m unaware of any subwoofer that claims measurably superior speed. Since the speaker location is typically the worst location for a subwoofer your dissatisfaction with that subwoofer and even with the sub-bass speaker is predictably understandable.
Consider the majority of full range statement speaker demonstrations are usually accompanied by determined room positioned and system tuned subwoofers providing an indistinguishably low frequency presentation.
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I believe if we do our due diligence well, we should be doing all-right. Leap of faith is not just luck, rather is built on solid background work you have accomplished beforehand. The more work you do, the more you could push past your comfort zone to explore / pursue the adventure. Not every reviewer is bought out. Even they were and give biased opinions, how about the positive feedback from users? They can not be all blind followers, right?
Before I was a bit too conservative and over-thinking with the buying decision even within my budget, and end up with forcing myself to live with a subpar system I feel can be further enhanced to extend my level of satisfaction. Later, I learn to stretch my budget and follow my heart to get things done. So far, I have been lucky. I have made most of the purchasing decision right other than a few entry-level DACs I have already got rid of and the speaker situation I am facing now. Nothing is perfect especially with these budgetary speakers. Knowing this is probably the highest budget now that can be approved by my best half, I would be content with what I have and start enjoying music listening and appreciation.
Just now something crosses my mind. I was thinking of bridging my amp (400 watts wi/ the 2-3 ohm tap) to possibly push the limit of Buchardt. I could only try with a single speaker since it is a 4-ohm speaker but, if it succeeds to get weightier bass, I could upgrade the amp later. Well, that is the plan and will update you all if succeeded.
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I've definitely been in your position, finding specific gear to audition can be difficult to impossible, even in the U.S. Hi-end audio isn't a common hobby, and more companies are going direct and the dealership network is shrinking. When legendary dealers like Lyric Hi-Fi close you know its the end of an era.
I bought my tube amp without ever hearing tubes before, let alone that specific amp. Curiosity got the better of me and I'm so glad it did. Probably my best leap of faith purchase. Good luck with the Buchardts, I'm sure they'll work out, its got an 8in passive radiator, so they can move a ton of air.
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Thank you for the good wishes. I will also try drum dampener silicone pads. I had tried the spring but found the bass was softened a bit.
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Lanx0003,
Best of luck to you on your journey, you sound like a very thoughtful audiophile. Take care
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Totally agreed, @perkadin, and thanks for words of wisdom. I wish I could get both in in the get go and do the in-home side-by-side comparison but I have only a few days left. As you also point out, the S40 sold in the similar price range to S400 is used from individuals who do not usually accept return. I was sort of tired of buying and selling audio stuffs. The area I lived do not have any dealers carrying a good selections of gears for me to shop around. So it is a non-laughing matter (to me) that I heavily count on reviewers’ comments I trust and on-line demo (with good recording) to make initial decision. Sad but true this is really my dilemma.
I like Randy and trust his ears. I have seen that clip before. S400 wins the bass category in its clarity but lose to the competitors in treble / midrange. But I agree those are not night and day disparities. They are all great speakers. I guess his conclusion in favor of Elac is primarily value proposition. The other reviewer I also like provides an unique measurement related to the soundstage of UBR which I recalled quite impressive. I actually intended to procure UBR62 at the same time (w/ Burchardt) but ceased the idea because a kinda silly reason, i.e., I have auditioned alot Elac in the past and mentally a bit worn out for another one even it is higher end.
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Were you able to listen to the Special 40’s? I’m not sure how many days are left in your home audition but I certainly wouldn’t eliminate the S40 based on other people’s opinions. For instance, I think the S400 looks rediculous with its grill covers on. Like a wooden traffic light. But that should in no way influence your opinion. Cheapaudioman did a comparison of the S400’s to the Elac Uni-Fi’s and preferred the less expensive Elacs. As much as I love his content, that wouldnt sway me a bit if I was serious about either speaker. My point is the only opinion that matters is your own. Reviews are there to guide you, but once you’ve had a chance to audition a speaker in home, those opinions should carry very little weight.
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I hear you. Special 40 was actually one of my top choices but the bass is not every thing. Based on the reviewers I trust including Stereophile and users' feedback, Special 40 was criticized being a bit overly emphasized upper midrange and relatively hard, congested midrange. Buchardt S400 or even S300 has more airy, open top end and bigger soundstage. I was impressed with Buchardt in those areas during the past month of auditioning.
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I’m sure you’ll get used to the different bass response, but do you have to? I’ve seen some used S40’s go for a similar price to the Buchardt’s new. Buchardt being a newer company has gotten a ton of hype, and selling direct allows them to compete with much higher prices speakers, but the used market is driven by supply and demand and a much more accurate reflection of value. Personally I’d rather own a depreciated pair of S40’s with the bass profile I like, over a yet to be deprecated S400 mk2.
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@lanx0003 - Makes sense. Thanks for additional context!
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I guess the issue I was running into is the type of bass. Let me reiterate. As Burchardt points out, they are shooting for flat / neutral response in mk ii so the bass (60-200 hz) is not boosted. As also explained by @vthokie83, the designer removes the bump in Mk I to exchange more accurate sound in Mk II which makes sense as the boosted bass tends to colorate midrange. One could also observe the boosted bass in Dynaudio Special 40 (in the 2nd chart). That is why almost everyone here agree that Special 40 tends to produce punchier bass than S400 Mk ii.
I guess I was soooo customed to the boosted bass (all my existing speakers are) and felt unsatisfied with the more "neutral" bass response from Burchardt. I am getting (used) there. Burchardt gives me more days to consider keeping the speakers and I will try the best with all great suggestions offered here. Thank you all.
Buchardt S400 mk ii
Dynaudio Special 40
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I recently put together a second system for my office which feature the Buchardt s400 mkii speakers. Driving them with a Luxman 590axii class A amp and Gold Note streamer/dac. For my needs, and the office space, I've been impressed with the base. The above system is giving my reference system a run for its money.
I'm surprised by the comments on the Buchardt's lack of base. I've been blown away how deep they go driven by the Luxman. If I turn things up, it feels like I'm in a nightclub!
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@vthokie83
Thank you for confirming the amp. My parasound NC 2125 v2 actually has 2-3 ohm tap and HPF with either 20hz or 40 hz cutoff. When I switch from 4-8 ohm tap to 2-3 ohm and select 20hz HPF, the bass weight seems to improve a bit. When listening to Yulunga by Dead Can Dance from Wake, I seem to getting more satisfactory drum/bass. I am not sure if this is psychological but the amp runs much cooler for sure which is a good thing. It is even cooler than the class D amp I have.
Regarding the placement close to wall, I will try that again and let it sit there for a longer time to see if I like it. One issue I am having is that I actually do not have "front wall". What I have is the blind and heavy curtain. I have used that combination for taming the rear reflection. Maybe that is why I was not getting more bass as expected when I tried last time as @dwest1023 and Buchardt have suggested. Right now, the PR is 22 inch away from the blind and about 15 inch away from the curtain.
I am glad OGY / TL works for you. I recalled the port shuffing from one of my earlier bookshelf, Elac DB6 (the one with the rear port before AJ moves it to the front for the 2nd gen.) even cause pain in my ear drum. I switch it to DB62 (still have them) and like them (but not in love).
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@grislybutter Amen! Brother. I could happily live with the Dynaudio Evoke.
@lanx0003 The margins are pretty slim on the OGY. The drivers alone are 380€ for a pair (made in France). If you factor in the cabinet (assembled in Poland) then 1500€ for the plywood model is a bargain.
They say the bass goes down to 50Hz. I believe that. But specs don't mean much. The Klipsch RP600 go down to 45Hz but they only seem to have mid-bass.
The OGY's bass is surprisingly punchy and fast, thanks to the transmission line. You don't have port shuffing like most ported tiny boxes. But the bass isn't warm enough or room-filling for big orchestral music. In comparison the Dynaudio Evoke is boomier with recessed mids (annoying for vocal clarity in movies). But the Evoke is just more fun.
I paired my OGY with a Rel T5x subwoofer and I'm kinda on the fence. It's clear that I could setup the sub better. But I seem to gain a warmer/deeper bass at the expense of midrange clarity.
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Also have used a 70WPC tube amp with the Buchardts, and had no problems.....actually was a beauiful pairing.
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Lanx0003,
I do own the Buchardt S400 MKIIs, and LOVE them. You are correct their sound characteristics are gorgeous except for deep bass. The previous model of S400 had an artificial "bump"t in the bass, that the designers removed for the MKIIs for a more accurate sound.
Your power is not the issue, I run them with a Denafrips Thallo amp rated at 120W into 8 ohm, and 220W into 4 ohms with no issue. The passive radiator does not add any difficulty for the amp.
The Buchardts with their passive radiator MUST be placed nearer to the wall behind them for proper bass response, and not pulled out into the room. I currently have mine 14" out from the wall, but I'll sometimes move them to 11" when listening to a lot of rock music. I did find that the soundstage started to shrink as I got under about 9".
The bass is quick, accurate to a point, and thoroughly enjoyable. I will however add a sub or two at some point, was thinking REL T/5X or T/7X
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No offense but agree. Look like a fun DIY speaker. But it might be cubersome to make by yourself. Need to have sort of precision machining tool. I wonder how deep will the bass go if the box is proportionally enlarged to house a 6.5" driver there?
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"They're more like entry-level speakers" - in the audiophile world, that's what thy are.
In my non-audiophile world, they are fantastic :)
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Thank you for the recommendation and advise. What a surprising bass quantity from a TL design with a tiny 4" driver, although from the demo there seems a bit artificial boominess but it maybe the effect of amplfication thru the TL or the recording. I also prefer larger driver (> 6.5") for the sense of scale but it is just me.
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The Dynaudio Evoke speakers have "big bass for their size" and they should be easy to power with any amp. They're more like entry-level speakers however. But don't sleep on them.
I personally use Closer Acoustics OGY speakers. I don't think that anything could match their midrange clarity and bass speed for the money. The single driver (EMS LB5) paired with a plywood transmission line shines here. The Ogy just suffer a little bit in terms of bass quantity (compared to the Dynaudio Evoke, but they outshine the Klipsch RP600M in every single metric).
Be careful with higher end bookshelf speakers like the KEF R3 or Amphion Argon 3S. They sacrifice bass quantity for bass/midrange quality. I suppose that they expect you to buy a sub.
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I totally agree with skipping a sub. Interestingly 2 years ago my list was (whatever version I could afford):
Dynaudio, Totem, Buchardt, Revel, Sonus Faber (my 3x my budget list was the Martens, Sonner, Harbeth and Joseph Audio)
I pretty much couldn’t afford any decent SF, the Totems were lean, I didn’t go for Buchardts, and the Revels would have been the best bang for the buck. I am happy with my Evoke 20s but I would accept the Contours for sure.
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Thx for the recommendations. When I raised to my budget to $2k-$3k, the following speakers were on my radar. Dynaudio Contour 20i was origianlly in my list but was ruled out because Stereophile mentioned it is picky in the component matching and placement and took the reviewer several days to finally dial in. Anyway, it is kind of frustrated to me that I need to go back to the list for another round of venture or raise my budget again to go for those like Altlante 3/5, Sourcepoint 10, or Qualio IQ.
It is also interesting you brought up the EQ. I did use the EQ in Foobar2000 and find it quite effective. I like it but I prefer playing music from the Streamer rather than laptop and my streamer does not have EQ.
I sort of shy away from adding a sub, primarily because I do not believe a separated sub could easily match the speed and texture of the main speakers. I had tried at least three times (SVS and REL) but none of the sub. I have tried provide me satisfactory results.
Stand mount speakers in 30-40 hz
- Dynaudio Special 40; $2050
- Dynaudio Confidence C1 $3000
- Monitor Audio Gold 100 5G $1800
- Burchardt S400 Mk II $2100
- Golden Ear BRX $1750
- Proac Tablette 2000 $750
- Proac D2R $3000
- Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mk2 or SE $900
- Dynaudio Focus 160 $900
- Totem Mani 2 $1500
- PMC Twenty 22; $1700
- Amphion Argon 3S $1700
- Reference 3A MM de Capo i $1500
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I do use a sub(B&W DB3). I also have a Schitt Loki max eq and though I dont need it much, it can and does correct and music I listen to. With any bookshelf I recommend a sub. I have a pair of LS50 metas and with my sub those things can rock. Another speaker I have and enjoy is the Goldenear BRX. Lanx, I think you would like the Dunaudio, no matter which one you chose. They have the warmth of the 400’s with a punchier bass, and better treble
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I found the Dyna Contour to sound better than the Special 40. I think it's a pretty sweet deal, with a great balance of detail, imaging and warmth. I never heard the Heritage. It seems that everyone is lacking bass with these small-ish monitors. Harbeth?
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Interestingly, before ordering S400 mk ii, the other two bookshelfs I had in mind are Special 40 and Confidence C1. I went through various reviews and the demo tracks and chose the S400 mk ii. From the tracks in the video listened with quality earphone, the bass from S400 is better suited to my taste, weightier and equally punchy and quick with Special 40. If you tune into 8:30 mark in the video clip and listen to "Drum Solo", you know what I am saying. However, that punchiness seems to disappear in my room. BTW, I have been auditioning it for more than 30 days and at least put in 150 hours of listening, not to mention I purchased a used pair.
However, I do agree with you for all other characters such as SS, airiness, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQgycQbDNE8&t=648s
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Lanx I do not remember the MRK 2 being polite. However, they do not kick like my dynaudio speial 40’s. You should give them a try if they are in your budget. Almost any Dynaudio speaker will give you the sound you are looking for.. I just install the 400 speial edition and as soon as i touch the woofer the passive radiator moves. The special edition ist night and day different from the regular 400’s. I hear no problem with bass as it is very articulate even at low vol. Sound stage is incredible. Vocals are sublime. Make sure you give them time to break in. Let them play a whole day continues if you can. Every speaker I have purchased has change Character after some time. I do have my speaker close to the rear wall if that means anything.
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@dwest1023
Thanks but do not force it. When I tried to do the test earlier this night, I found neither woofer nor PR can be pushed in gently. I give up as I do not wish to damage the speaker.
I am looking for weighty and nimble bass and I fully agree you that S400 is not doing the magic even the speaker can go really low. The bass is too polite for lack of a better word. I may let it go and resume the journey of my end-game speaker quest.
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I know longer have the 400’s but have a pair of the 400 Mrk 2 special.Edition on the way. I will do the test then FedEx says they will be here this Saturday. To grisly, the I dont think I said you need a Pass labs to get bass from the 400’s. At the time that is what I used when I had them. My pass is overkill especially in my 12x 14 room. . Lanx003, seems like you are looking for pounding kick drum bass? Im not sure the 400’s do that.
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Oh, agreed @grislybutter. I would like to have @dwest1023 test on his speaker, not the Pass int 250. The Buchardt has suspected one of my S400 Mk ii's internal is NOT airtight enough to the standard to push the PR well. I just want to confirm that.
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anything above 60Watts should work fine with the Buchardts. I never read or saw any tests where they complained about the bass or used a beast like the Pass Lab 250
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@dwest1023
I will appreciate if you could also perform the airtight / leak test as described above on your S400, and let me know how long does it take the woofer or PR to get back to its normal position / equalization of internal pressure. I have read somewhere that it will actually take longer time (say 6-8 seconds instead) to return to its default position. Appreciated.
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Maybe I was over reacted to the lesser wattage of my Parasound amp. I wrote to Buchardt and they also mentioned the amp is a great one and should not be a concern/issue. They were saying S400 is a neutral speaker aiming for flat response. The mid-bass is not boosted like most of the ported speaker (like Sony) so S400's bass might not be that strong as a comparison but it hits deeper notes for sure. As you have suggested, they recommend to move the speaker closer to the wall even to the corner. I did find the bass is essentuated but still prefer leaving its tweeter 3 ft away from either back or side walls to give the speaker space to breath. I found also the soundstage depth suffers a bit when I move it closer.
Lastly, Buchardt suspects one of the speakers may not be airtight enough (which is important to being a closed-enclosure speaker) and asks me to do the airtight test. The test goes like gently push in the passive radiator on the backside, and then noticing that the front woofer get pushed out and see how long time it takes for the front woofer to return to its default position. It should take 3-4 seconds, maybe a bit less. I am going to test both speakers tonight.
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If you have a high current amp pushing 22wpc, you should have no problem driving the 400’s. It could be your placement of the speakers. Try moving them closer to your back wall.
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@dwest1023
That could be it. I see Pass 250 renders 500 wpc into 4 ohm and S400 is rated a 4 ohm speaker. I had Parasound A23 and NC 2125 v2. Both are high current rated 225 wpc into 4 ohm but maybe still not powerful enough to push the woofer and radiator well. Wow. I thought with the 88 db/w/m sensitivity my amplifiers should be able to handle it well BUT I could be wrong for all this time...
I wish I could afford Pass int. 250. Do you other recommendations for that powerful amp. under, say, $2k-$3k that could do the trick? My 45 days' trial is ending soon.
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Sounds to me you have a low power amp problem. I have listen to the 400mrk 2 with my Pass integrated 250 and I could not tell if my Sub was on . The Buchardt have excellent bass.
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