@dwest1023
That could be it. I see Pass 250 renders 500 wpc into 4 ohm and S400 is rated a 4 ohm speaker. I had Parasound A23 and NC 2125 v2. Both are high current rated 225 wpc into 4 ohm but maybe still not powerful enough to push the woofer and radiator well. Wow. I thought with the 88 db/w/m sensitivity my amplifiers should be able to handle it well BUT I could be wrong for all this time...
I wish I could afford Pass int. 250. Do you other recommendations for that powerful amp. under, say, $2k-$3k that could do the trick? My 45 days' trial is ending soon.
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Maybe I was over reacted to the lesser wattage of my Parasound amp. I wrote to Buchardt and they also mentioned the amp is a great one and should not be a concern/issue. They were saying S400 is a neutral speaker aiming for flat response. The mid-bass is not boosted like most of the ported speaker (like Sony) so S400's bass might not be that strong as a comparison but it hits deeper notes for sure. As you have suggested, they recommend to move the speaker closer to the wall even to the corner. I did find the bass is essentuated but still prefer leaving its tweeter 3 ft away from either back or side walls to give the speaker space to breath. I found also the soundstage depth suffers a bit when I move it closer.
Lastly, Buchardt suspects one of the speakers may not be airtight enough (which is important to being a closed-enclosure speaker) and asks me to do the airtight test. The test goes like gently push in the passive radiator on the backside, and then noticing that the front woofer get pushed out and see how long time it takes for the front woofer to return to its default position. It should take 3-4 seconds, maybe a bit less. I am going to test both speakers tonight.
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@dwest1023
I will appreciate if you could also perform the airtight / leak test as described above on your S400, and let me know how long does it take the woofer or PR to get back to its normal position / equalization of internal pressure. I have read somewhere that it will actually take longer time (say 6-8 seconds instead) to return to its default position. Appreciated.
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Oh, agreed @grislybutter. I would like to have @dwest1023 test on his speaker, not the Pass int 250. The Buchardt has suspected one of my S400 Mk ii's internal is NOT airtight enough to the standard to push the PR well. I just want to confirm that.
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@dwest1023
Thanks but do not force it. When I tried to do the test earlier this night, I found neither woofer nor PR can be pushed in gently. I give up as I do not wish to damage the speaker.
I am looking for weighty and nimble bass and I fully agree you that S400 is not doing the magic even the speaker can go really low. The bass is too polite for lack of a better word. I may let it go and resume the journey of my end-game speaker quest.
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Interestingly, before ordering S400 mk ii, the other two bookshelfs I had in mind are Special 40 and Confidence C1. I went through various reviews and the demo tracks and chose the S400 mk ii. From the tracks in the video listened with quality earphone, the bass from S400 is better suited to my taste, weightier and equally punchy and quick with Special 40. If you tune into 8:30 mark in the video clip and listen to "Drum Solo", you know what I am saying. However, that punchiness seems to disappear in my room. BTW, I have been auditioning it for more than 30 days and at least put in 150 hours of listening, not to mention I purchased a used pair.
However, I do agree with you for all other characters such as SS, airiness, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQgycQbDNE8&t=648s
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Thx for the recommendations. When I raised to my budget to $2k-$3k, the following speakers were on my radar. Dynaudio Contour 20i was origianlly in my list but was ruled out because Stereophile mentioned it is picky in the component matching and placement and took the reviewer several days to finally dial in. Anyway, it is kind of frustrated to me that I need to go back to the list for another round of venture or raise my budget again to go for those like Altlante 3/5, Sourcepoint 10, or Qualio IQ.
It is also interesting you brought up the EQ. I did use the EQ in Foobar2000 and find it quite effective. I like it but I prefer playing music from the Streamer rather than laptop and my streamer does not have EQ.
I sort of shy away from adding a sub, primarily because I do not believe a separated sub could easily match the speed and texture of the main speakers. I had tried at least three times (SVS and REL) but none of the sub. I have tried provide me satisfactory results.
Stand mount speakers in 30-40 hz
- Dynaudio Special 40; $2050
- Dynaudio Confidence C1 $3000
- Monitor Audio Gold 100 5G $1800
- Burchardt S400 Mk II $2100
- Golden Ear BRX $1750
- Proac Tablette 2000 $750
- Proac D2R $3000
- Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mk2 or SE $900
- Dynaudio Focus 160 $900
- Totem Mani 2 $1500
- PMC Twenty 22; $1700
- Amphion Argon 3S $1700
- Reference 3A MM de Capo i $1500
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Thank you for the recommendation and advise. What a surprising bass quantity from a TL design with a tiny 4" driver, although from the demo there seems a bit artificial boominess but it maybe the effect of amplfication thru the TL or the recording. I also prefer larger driver (> 6.5") for the sense of scale but it is just me.
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No offense but agree. Look like a fun DIY speaker. But it might be cubersome to make by yourself. Need to have sort of precision machining tool. I wonder how deep will the bass go if the box is proportionally enlarged to house a 6.5" driver there?
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@vthokie83
Thank you for confirming the amp. My parasound NC 2125 v2 actually has 2-3 ohm tap and HPF with either 20hz or 40 hz cutoff. When I switch from 4-8 ohm tap to 2-3 ohm and select 20hz HPF, the bass weight seems to improve a bit. When listening to Yulunga by Dead Can Dance from Wake, I seem to getting more satisfactory drum/bass. I am not sure if this is psychological but the amp runs much cooler for sure which is a good thing. It is even cooler than the class D amp I have.
Regarding the placement close to wall, I will try that again and let it sit there for a longer time to see if I like it. One issue I am having is that I actually do not have "front wall". What I have is the blind and heavy curtain. I have used that combination for taming the rear reflection. Maybe that is why I was not getting more bass as expected when I tried last time as @dwest1023 and Buchardt have suggested. Right now, the PR is 22 inch away from the blind and about 15 inch away from the curtain.
I am glad OGY / TL works for you. I recalled the port shuffing from one of my earlier bookshelf, Elac DB6 (the one with the rear port before AJ moves it to the front for the 2nd gen.) even cause pain in my ear drum. I switch it to DB62 (still have them) and like them (but not in love).
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I guess the issue I was running into is the type of bass. Let me reiterate. As Burchardt points out, they are shooting for flat / neutral response in mk ii so the bass (60-200 hz) is not boosted. As also explained by @vthokie83, the designer removes the bump in Mk I to exchange more accurate sound in Mk II which makes sense as the boosted bass tends to colorate midrange. One could also observe the boosted bass in Dynaudio Special 40 (in the 2nd chart). That is why almost everyone here agree that Special 40 tends to produce punchier bass than S400 Mk ii.
I guess I was soooo customed to the boosted bass (all my existing speakers are) and felt unsatisfied with the more "neutral" bass response from Burchardt. I am getting (used) there. Burchardt gives me more days to consider keeping the speakers and I will try the best with all great suggestions offered here. Thank you all.
Buchardt S400 mk ii
Dynaudio Special 40
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I hear you. Special 40 was actually one of my top choices but the bass is not every thing. Based on the reviewers I trust including Stereophile and users' feedback, Special 40 was criticized being a bit overly emphasized upper midrange and relatively hard, congested midrange. Buchardt S400 or even S300 has more airy, open top end and bigger soundstage. I was impressed with Buchardt in those areas during the past month of auditioning.
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Totally agreed, @perkadin, and thanks for words of wisdom. I wish I could get both in in the get go and do the in-home side-by-side comparison but I have only a few days left. As you also point out, the S40 sold in the similar price range to S400 is used from individuals who do not usually accept return. I was sort of tired of buying and selling audio stuffs. The area I lived do not have any dealers carrying a good selections of gears for me to shop around. So it is a non-laughing matter (to me) that I heavily count on reviewers’ comments I trust and on-line demo (with good recording) to make initial decision. Sad but true this is really my dilemma.
I like Randy and trust his ears. I have seen that clip before. S400 wins the bass category in its clarity but lose to the competitors in treble / midrange. But I agree those are not night and day disparities. They are all great speakers. I guess his conclusion in favor of Elac is primarily value proposition. The other reviewer I also like provides an unique measurement related to the soundstage of UBR which I recalled quite impressive. I actually intended to procure UBR62 at the same time (w/ Burchardt) but ceased the idea because a kinda silly reason, i.e., I have auditioned alot Elac in the past and mentally a bit worn out for another one even it is higher end.
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Thank you for the good wishes. I will also try drum dampener silicone pads. I had tried the spring but found the bass was softened a bit.
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I believe if we do our due diligence well, we should be doing all-right. Leap of faith is not just luck, rather is built on solid background work you have accomplished beforehand. The more work you do, the more you could push past your comfort zone to explore / pursue the adventure. Not every reviewer is bought out. Even they were and give biased opinions, how about the positive feedback from users? They can not be all blind followers, right?
Before I was a bit too conservative and over-thinking with the buying decision even within my budget, and end up with forcing myself to live with a subpar system I feel can be further enhanced to extend my level of satisfaction. Later, I learn to stretch my budget and follow my heart to get things done. So far, I have been lucky. I have made most of the purchasing decision right other than a few entry-level DACs I have already got rid of and the speaker situation I am facing now. Nothing is perfect especially with these budgetary speakers. Knowing this is probably the highest budget now that can be approved by my best half, I would be content with what I have and start enjoying music listening and appreciation.
Just now something crosses my mind. I was thinking of bridging my amp (400 watts wi/ the 2-3 ohm tap) to possibly push the limit of Buchardt. I could only try with a single speaker since it is a 4-ohm speaker but, if it succeeds to get weightier bass, I could upgrade the amp later. Well, that is the plan and will update you all if succeeded.
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@tunefuldude
Thanks for the recommendation. I was surprised that I missed it or maybe I stumbled across but failed to include it in my list. It is quite interesting that Stereophile compared it fairly with the Dynaudio Confidence C1 (which is high on my list) sonically but at a less than half price. I will explore that option.
@dwest1023
It seems that I am wrong about S40 this time since not only you but also others attest there is no midrange congestion issue with it. Will resume the exploration or even a quest on it. Its red birch high gloss finish is simply stunningly gorgeous.
@m-db
This might be another long-debate subject and I do not intend to open the deep discussion on this. I have seen different advocates for the sub. placement. Some people said the corner is the worst but the well-known REL lead designer John Hunter advocates for it. You mentioned by the main speaker is the worst but I have seen others end up with it being the optimal location which also makes sense to me. That is the location I have experimented and chosen after hours of moving it around. Admittedly the issue can be further mitigated or addressed with modern DSP technology but I guess the optimal location is still room dependent.
My point is that, even you have settled with the "optimal" placement, the speed and texture from a separate sub. controlled by its built-in amplification can not be easily matched / integrated with the main speakers controlled by your system amplification. When listening to the music having quick bass tempo, that disparity in speed and texture of tone bet. them just severely bother me. Sandy Gross who has already retired from Golden Ear mentioned it is almost impossible to seamlessly integrate them and they chose built-in subwoofer design instead.
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