Billie or Ella? Maria or Renata? Technique or feeling?

@tylermunns 

Now you're just looking for a fight.

You STILL do not get my point and I've lost patience trying to explain.

I'm done. 

M

@edcyn 

Thanks for the compliment...but don't be that impressed...it what was presented to me by happenstance of location.

Here's a few more for ya:

Saw the original cast of "Hair" on B'way, was outstanding nudity and all.

Allman Bros at the Capital Theater in Passaic NJ when Duane was alive and they (it could be argued) were at their peak with those members. Just after the Fillmore East concerts.

Spoke with Jerry and Phil prior to a concert of the GD at Roosevelt Stadium in Jersey City.  Phil was way into talking about the sound system.

Saw the GD at RFK Stadium in '74 with the "Wall of Sound"! Simply and completely out of control in an amazing way.  The only thing I've heard live that is close was Sting at Radio City, that was awesome as well.

Oh yeah, saw Sting at the Bottom Line in NYC play the first concert in the US when Dreams of the Blue Turtles came out.  Small club (think gymnasium) and was five or six feet from the low stage, beer in hand.  Spoke for a moment. Nice guy.

That's enough for one day.

Regards,

barts

Not to start a flame war, but @stuartk, is Ravel's Piano Concerto jazz?

https://www.you_tube.com/watch?v=cJOW5mlhH_Y

* remove underscore in word youtube.

** what a rare and delicate treat for the laureates!

@stuartk ”an improvisatory language.” That’s not vague at all.

Any kind of fancy, martini-clinking music with improvisation in it? Okay.  

I’ll just wear a tux to my next gig and start scatting and getting all busy with my extemporaneous playing, doing a Katy Perry cover. That’ll be, “jazz.”

@tylermunns 

"I consider jazz to be that singular, unique, original music of Parker, Gillespie, Davis, Monk, Coltrane, Mingus, Roach, we could go on and on, and further on into the ‘60s and ‘70s, Coleman, Taylor, Art Ensemble of Chicago, I could go on.  I really get excited by the music of those last three, plus Don Cherry, Roland Kirk, again, I could go on.  That’s my take".

And my take is that Jazz is first and foremost an improvisatory language whose character is not defined by whether the material being playing is original to the artist. 

We can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that. 

A late posting by me.

Billie Holliday "Lady In Satin" with Ray Ellis Orchestra.  The feeling in those aging textured vocals with marvelous backing.    IMO it was her best.

Ella's "Songbook" will always be extraordinary.

With respect to Billie Holiday vs Ella Fitzgerald, I find that the emotion that Ella conveys is more subtle, but it's there. Billie Holiday can be a bit over the top for me.

@chowkwan I figured it out, the guy is Bobby Bare.

@tylermunns You are alright if you like country. For those unaware of what @tylermunns is talking about:

I do believe the gentleman you're talking about is not Jerry Jeff but Waylon. Y'know I just purely cannot resist.

There's bop, bip bop, bebop, rebop, hard bop, post bop, Cowboy BeBop and even BeBop Deluxe.  What does it ll mean except that it's all music.

As the great trumpeter said, “I'll play it first and tell you what it is later.”

@chowkwan 

I love that show!  When Glen sings “Gentle on my Mind” and kicks the buh-jeesuz out of the guitar solo, it’s sooooo fantastic!

Is that Jerry Jeff on the far left, in the blue shirt and black hat?

@tylermunns the songs of Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Harold Arlen, Rodgers & Hart, Irving Berlin, Rodgers & Hammerstein, etc. These are some of the greatest pop songwriters in history, but not what I would call jazz.

Substitute jazz for country + Broadway for rock n roll = You call it jazz, I call it bad Broadway. Sam does get to it after 5 minutes  in case you want to skip ahead.

The Geezenzlaws swinging out on a rope. That would be one of those things which seen cannot be unseen.

@stuartk 

“You seem to be asserting that once jazz musicians tackle “songbook” material, they suddenly (in your mind) morph into something suspect, something lesser, something somehow not quite ‘legit’”

I neither asserted, nor even insinuated any such value judgement on jazz compositions or pop compositions.

I addressed a question in this thread regarding jazz singers.  I am not sure how to define such, as jazz seems to be dominated by instrumental music, and artists’ catalogs like those of Holiday, Fitzgerald, Vaughn, etc. are so heavily populated with pop songs of the ‘20s-‘50s. I don’t see how my language betrayed anything derisive regarding those incredible songs. 
I am, and have been for a long time, a deep lover of those songs. My piano playing over the last year has increased noticeably via my constant digging in to those very songs.  This music is less intimidating to take on as a player than Sergei Rachmaninoff’s or Thelonius Monk’s, but still challenging and simply a joy to study and play. I just love them, and love being able to actually play them now with something that resembles competence.  I am, and always have been, a ravenous, insatiable pop guy.

I consider jazz to be that singular, unique, original music of Parker, Gillespie, Davis, Monk, Coltrane, Mingus, Roach, we could go on and on, and further on into the ‘60s and ‘70s, Coleman, Taylor, Art Ensemble of Chicago, I could go on.  I really get excited by the music of those last three, plus Don Cherry, Roland Kirk, again, I could go on.  
That’s my take.

barts -- I’m mightily impressed with your concert going. My parents saw Sinatra a couple times in Vegas. Sinatra at the Sands? I’m not quite sure. They did, however, take me and my sister to see Sammy Davis Jr. when he was in Vegas. In any case, their "con-oy-zer" selection of MOR is now in my hands.

@rok2id 

"Jazz is a way of playing music."  ---   Jelly Roll Morton. (he should know)

Which means all of the first Jazz tunes, were not Jazz, when written, but played in a Jazz style later"

Yes! This is exactly what I was attempting to convey!  

"Jazz is a way of playing music."  ---   Jelly Roll Morton. (he should know)

Which means all of the first Jazz tunes, were not Jazz, when written, but played in a Jazz style later.

Cheers

@frogman 

"For me an even more interesting question is why, when considering artists in the admittedly very small group at the very top level of excellence, some listeners feel the need to declare one or the other “the best” as if that opinion is some sort of objective truth".

Well, we all have egos. One thing I've noticed about mine-- it 's very enamored of trying to (objectively) "validate" it's subjective preferences,  Of course, this is an impossible quest but that doesn't stop it trying!  :o)

It's only because I recognize this in myself that I recognize it in others. It's so very "human". 

@tylermunns 

"As far as vocalists go, Ella isn’t “straight jazz.”  When we talk of vocalists of this ilk, (Holiday, Vaughn, Washington, Sinatra, etc.) I don’t consider any of them “straight jazz.” I think of Abbey Lincoln who, by the 1960s, was singing real-deal jazz music with the great Max Roach (her husband).  Brilliant.

Those previously mentioned vocalists are singing the songs of Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Harold Arlen, Rodgers & Hart, Irving Berlin, Rodgers & Hammerstein, etc.  "

I hope I misunderstand but you seem to be asserting in the above post that when Jazz musicians play/sing tunes written by Jazz musicians, they are Jazz artists but once they tackle "songbook" material, they suddenly (in your mind) morph into something suspect-- something lesser-- something somehow not quite "legit".    What are they, then. at such moments-- Pop artists? Coltrane playing Naima is Jazz but Coltrane playing "My Favorite Things" is Pop?  

"When I think of jazz vocalists, I think of people singing jazz music"

Judging whether something is Jazz solely based upon the origins of the material seems to me a very distorted perspective.  

Have you considered why "My Funny Valentine", "All The Things You Are", etc. have been interpreted many many times and in many different ways by "straight' Jazz players? Perhaps there is something about these tunes that lend themselves to exploration via a Jazz esthetic that makes them valued by Jazz musicians? 

Betty Carter is a supreme example of an artist who took "standards" and truly made them her own. If you don't recognize that as the very essence of Jazz, you and I, Sir, hail from very different planets. 

But, tylermunns, the same can be said of practically every instrumentalist that played this music.  So, you’re saying that all those great instrumentalists that played, for instance, “All The Things You Are” were not playing Jazz at all?  That all those great performances of “three minute pop tunes” that served as vehicles for Jazz improvisation were not Jazz at all?  Not arguing, just trying to understand your  viewpoint.  Getting back to singers, please name other singers besides Lincoln that you consider to truly be Jazz singers.

In the meantime, how about a little non-Jazz 😉:
 

Ella -straight ahead "Jazz"

These categories were invented by the salespeople at record companies so minimum wage store clerks would know into which bins to stick the records. With digital freeing us from physical storage everything can be reduced to two categories: good music and bad music. I vote Lawrence Welk as first inductee to the latter. I cringed when he came on TV and my uncle said You like music. Here's the show for you. And to be polite I had to watch. Prolly there's a Nurse Ratched somewhere saying Lawrence Welk is all some of the patients here have. 

* cultural reference

@frogman 

I noted a clear distinction in my initial post of “the ‘60s stuff” in regards to Lincoln.  When I think of jazz vocalists, I think of people singing jazz music.  I don’t consider the likes of the masterful pop songwriters I mentioned to be jazz.  They wrote immaculately crafted 3-minute pop songs.  They may be all fancy and stuff, with someone like, say, Ella Fitzgerald exhibiting incredible vocal prowess and improvisational acumen, but it’s often still fancy pop songs.  She ain’t singing the likes of Parker/Gillespie/Davis/Monk/Mingus/Coltrane etc.

This is why I mentioned ‘60s era Abbey Lincoln as an example of a vocalist singing jazz music.  Perhaps others may provide input in this regard.

That’s how I see it.
Perhaps, in apropos fashion, this could all be “boiled down” to a classic Gershwin line: “you say, ‘potato’/I say, ‘puh-tah-toe’”

@skyscraper Both he (Lester Young), Coltrane and Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins are my all time sax favorites, all geniuses in their own right, just like Ella and Billie in theirs.

Prolly going to ignite yet another flame war, but what about Sonny?

At 4 AM in the studio, he announces I'm hot now. To the dismay of the engineer..

Frogman, very nice selections all. Thanks for posting them. Lester Young is a particular favorite and it was nice to hear him playing alongside Ella. I love any of  the music where he accompanied Billie Holiday too. Both he, Coltrane and Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins are my all time sax favorites, all geniuses in their own right, just like Ella and Billie in theirs.

Mike

I'm a little late to the party...but The Ella "songbooks" are simply outstanding.  She is so polished and oh the ease of her singing is enthralling to me.  I saw her at Radio City Musical Hall and she was one of the few artists that had the audience in  rapt attention the entire time.  Piano, bass, drum kit and that amazing voice. 

The other was Frank at Madison Square Garden "The Main Event", you could hear a pin drop in the place. He had a big band/orchestra backing him up.  Frank gets you with the phraseology/timing.

Regards,

barts

+1 @hilde45 so true so true

skyscraper, you may like this one:

Good recommendations by tablejockey.

It’s interesting that the distinction is being made re “song book” material as concerns both Ella and Billie. The fact is that most of the material recorded by Billie is in fact, and like Ella’s…….also part of the Great American Songbook.

Two different singers with two different styles. Jazz is, stylistically, a lot of different things depending on the particular artist. In fact, individuality of style is one of the. key ingredients of Jazz. Ella’s was not as gritty and pained as was Billie’s. Does that make her less of a Jazz singer? I don’t think so. It’s also interesting that singers seem to be accorded less stylistic latitude than instrumentalists. Was Lester Young less of a Jazz player than Coltrane? After all, he had a beautifully light and smooth tone with perfect intonation (sound familiar?). Coltrane, on the other hand, had tons of grit and angst in his playing and tended to play a little sharp.

Thanks tablejockey. I'll check the Decca and early Verve material out. That sounds like what I'd be looking for.

skyscraper-If  you just want to hear Ella in one of her best settings  that's only with piano or simple Jazz ensemble. Check out here Decca and early Verve output for some of her finest. The songbook/orchestra settings is what most people remember her for. 

Maybe I’ve used poor terminology. to describe what I’m looking for in Ella Fitgerald recordings. I’d prefer to avoid the Gershwin or Cole Porter Great American songbook type material is all. For instance, I’ve most all of Miles Davis records through 1977, but rarely play his Porgy and Bess, Sketches of Spain or Quiet Nights recordings. For whatever reason, valid or not, I find that kind of material annoying and that’s what I’d like to avoid. Maybe her Duke Ellington Songbook album would be okay.

So if any of you could recommend any Ella albums like I’m poorly trying to describe, I’d appreciate your recommendations. Thanks.

Mike

tylermunns, that is a terribly narrow definition of what a Jazz singer is; and one that I could not disagree with more.  Of the singers you mention, I may grant you Sinatra……maybe.  However, Ellla, Vaughn not Jazz singers?!  Ella Fitzgerald, with the possible exception of Eddie Henderson and today’s Kurt Elling was possibly the greatest vocal improviser ever.  There have been very few vocalists who have had the vocal technique and, more importantly, the command of harmony and the general vocabulary of improvised Jazz to be able to scat in a way competitive with good instrumental Jazz improvisers.  Surely, that alone puts her in the Jazz category.  Of course, all this in her generational style which was rooted in Swing and, as you say, American Songbook standards.  Btw, the vast majority of Jazz instrumentalist also used, and still use, the Great American Songbook as the primary source of their material.  So…..

Abbey Lincoln was fabulous no doubt.  Being a civil rights activist her later material reflects this.  Her “protest songs” during the time that she was married to Roach were a reflection of the social climate of the time; just as was some of the instrumental Jazz of that time.  However, her earlier recordings were centered on the American Songbook.  Does this mean she wasn’t a Jazz singer then?  

@skyscraper 

As far as vocalists go, Ella isn’t “straight jazz.”  When we talk of vocalists of this ilk, (Holiday, Vaughn, Washington, Sinatra, etc.) I don’t consider any of them “straight jazz.” I think of Abbey Lincoln who, by the 1960s, was singing real-deal jazz music with the great Max Roach (her husband).  Brilliant.

Those previously mentioned vocalists are singing the songs of Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Harold Arlen, Rodgers & Hart, Irving Berlin, Rodgers & Hammerstein, etc.  

These are some of the greatest pop songwriters in history, but not what I would call jazz.

Tylermunns, just as an example, Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" or "Birth of the Cool" recordings as opposed to his "Sketches of Spain" or  Louis Armstrong's "Hot Five and Hot Seven" recordings as opposed to His "Hello Dolly" material. 

Mike

@skyscraper So as to properly address your query, I’m curious as to what you mean by, “straight jazz.” What would be an example of such?

I’m a great admirer of Billie Holiday’s singing and have most of her recordings. I would like to acquire some Ella Fitzgerald jazz recordings as well. Most of what you most commonly see of her work are the the "Songbook" type recordings like the Cole Porter or Gershwin songbook or recordings like Porgy and Bess with Louis Armstrong.

There must be outstanding straight jazz Ella Fitzgerald albums you might recommend that I could search out. Nothing against the above mentioned recordings, which many of you must enjoy, they’re just not to my individual taste. Thanks for any suggestions.

Mike

Feeling. Callas all the time. Listen to Sumi Jo for technique and no feeling. However it is possible to achieve both together - Schwarzkopf, Gruberova Norman or, Netrebko.

chockwan: "They do say that the fastest way to empty a room at a hifi show is to put on some opera." Perhaps, but the friends I attend with ask for opera rather than pop music.

Goes without saying, sls141,  but the problem is that technique is equated by some to mean absence of feeling. Why? Technique in the “hands” of a great artist opens possibilities of expression not available to an artist with limited technique.

No feeling/emotion? Gimme a break!

I couldn't say anything about the ladies mentioned due to lack of familiarity. But as to the difference between "Technique or feeling?" I'll vote for feeling. Computers/synthesizers/drum machines may do things with precision, but will never replace the human element needed to relay expression.

Excellent post, stuartk. You wrote much of what I was about to write. You are exactly correct re the role of listener bias. For me an even more interesting question is why, when considering artists in the admittedly very small group at the very top level of excellence, some listeners feel the need to declare one or the other “the best” as if that opinion is some sort of objective truth. It is instead, and as you point out, at least in part a reflection of the listener’s bias. Moreover, to not keep a more open mind to this reality doesn’t enhance one’s acumen as a listener; it limits it instead.

@stuartk Otis Rush and Roy Buchanan!  Great guitar player mentions!

If we were trying to reach the most legitimate, objectively, empirically-based rankings of certain performers, technical proficiency would have to be taken into consideration.  To stay on the topic of guitar players, while I would never personally (subjectively) prefer, say, Yngwie Malmsteen and Eddie Van Halen to, say, David Lindley or Jesse Ed Davis, I would have to rank Yngwie and Eddie higher. They’re just too good, and their disagreeable music is not enough to trump their obviously superior technical proficiency.

@stuartk You do realize that you're describing your subjective experience here as though it were objective, right?  

You do realize you're not me so how do you know my subjective experience isn't objective, right?

@stuartk I've played CDs that I find very emotive for friends, only to witness them sitting  impassively.

You need better friends. I kid. I kid.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience playing a semi bombastic recording to a friend who rocketed out of his chair exclaiming Wow! That's the kind of full orchestral music I love! I was taken aback at the extent of his enthusiasm albeit gratified that he liked the recording so much (Kyung Hwa Chung playing Prokofiev's Violin Concertos).

@stuartk I'm guessing there are many fans of guitar shredders who'll assert they experience intense emotion from listening to their idols' gymnastics.

I have heard that proposition from fans of the violinist Jascha Heifetz who had superhuman technique. With age, I can meet them halfway. e.g. Heifetz/Reiner in the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. Nice nod to Mr. Buchanan. 

This technique vs feeling carries over into other walks of life. My chess hero Tal was known as the Magician from Riga. He would make one spectacular sacrifice after another until finally he somehow had his opponent cornered. His opposite was the calculating Keres but sometimes they'd jump into each others territory and Keres would play with flair while Tal became all neat and tidy.

I have to mention Ayrton Senna in F1 and his nominal teammate Alain Prost. There is a famous clip of Senna at Donnington in the rain coming from fifth place to pass the greats of his day as if they were standing still to take the lead. All before the first lap was over! 

Back to hifi. If you take the line that all is subjective to its logical end, what are we even doing here? Does it mean anything when someone says that a particular piece of equipment transported him to musical nirvana? We can cloak our opinions  in objective sounding language like the midrange was superb or I could really see the images of the instruments but it's all subjective is it not? Only if we accept that there is value in the subjective is there any point to a forum like Audiogon. 

Both are great but Callas was a better actress. Given her life story, she had to be.

There's a great line in the comments section by Larry Mitchell,

"Tebaldi songs with a gorgeous voice.  Callas speaks to the gods."

@chowkwan 

"I stand back to no one in my admiration for Ella Fitzgerald's technique but all the vocal fireworks make for precious little emotion. Billie Holiday on the other hand makes you feel she's singing just for you."

You do realize that you're describing your subjective experience here as though it were objective, right?  

The issue of whether or not an artist communicates emotion is complicated by the fact that the listener is an integral part of the experience. What the listener perceives is deeply conditioned by all sorts of subjective factors. 

I've played CDs that I find very emotive for friends, only to witness them sitting  impassively. Clearly they've had a very different response. I don't believe this disparity can be explained simply by analyzing how technically proficient the artist in question may or may not be. 

I'm guessing there are many fans of guitar shredders who'll assert they experience intense emotion from listening to their idols' gymnastics. For me, it's about as gripping as watching someone lift weights but they'd probably find Otis Rush or Roy Buchanan boring. 

One guy who started out as a shredder and evolved into (as I hear him) a highly emotive player is Ritchie Kotzen. His Live in Japan YouTube video is a great example. 

Great topic, BTW. 

@tylermunns To reduce an artist to a polarized representation of some manufactured binary makes no sense.

One man's reduction is another man's observation. e.g. Steve Vai shredder extraordinaire, but to what end? Technique per se is OK viz John McLaughlin who is shreddier than Steve but there is a musical point to all those rapid fire notes.

I got nuttin' agin' Steve you understand owning two of his signature guitars. Luv the monkey grip.

Steve Vai Zappa band. McLaughlin Miles Davis band. I rest my case.

@edcyn. Now we're remembering Callas, she was an audiophile. At the end of her life, she spent her days listening to her old recordings on reel tape. Prolly master copies. There is a photo of her in her apartment with her tape machine but even the all knowing internet couldn't find it. I'm guessing Revox A77 which was the go to machine in those far off days.

And a Furtwangler fan! See John Hunt's bio of Maria Callas. He was driving her and Beethoven came on the radio. Arriving at their destination, Callas insisted on staying in the car wanting to know the name of the conductor. Upon finding out she poured scorn. Ha! That's what passes for conducting today. We had Furtwangler.

Technical proficiency is only another tool that may or may not assist the artist in achieving the ultimate goal: cause one to feel something.

To reduce an artist to a polarized representation of some manufactured binary makes no sense.  If Ella doesn’t make you feel anything, then, there ya go. Problem solved. Is this because she has “too much technical proficiency?”  Either way, it doesn’t matter, because she doesn’t move you. If Mariah Carey moves you just as much as Patti Smith, well, there ya go. Either way, any such judgment on the singers’ technical proficiency is irrelevant.
Feeling is the point.

chowkwan -- Truly.. And far be it for me to denigrate the situation with cliche, yeah,  life imitates opera.

@danager. Re:clip of Tebaldi and Callas. Well you tried. More than that I cannot ask of any man. Or woman. They do say that the fastest way to empty a room at a hifi show is to put on some opera. 

Tebaldi was technically superior to Callas. Tebaldi was smoother and in this clip you can clearly hear the crackling in Callas voice as even her most ardent fan will admit. Yet with her more limited voice, Callas conveys more heartfelt emotion. I can't explain in a technical way how she achieves this, not being a singer. Her fans just know it as the Callas Magic.

The scene is from Puccini's Tosca with Tebaldi and Callas in the title role. Tosca is being seduced by the chief of police in exchange for the release of her lover from prison and torture. Here she mourns her predicament in the song I Lived for Art - Visse d'Arte singing that she lived a life of innocence dedicated to her craft.

In reality, Callas lived the life being partnered to the boor Aristotle Onassis who didn't appreciate her singing. He once questioned why she continued singing since he had enough money for both of them. (You may remember him for marrying Jackie Kennedy. It was considered scandalous at the time for a former First Lady to marry for money. Ted Kennedy brokered the deal in person.)

In the opera, Tosca stabs the chief of police to death rather than submit to his blackmail. I always imagine Callas is thinking Take that, Onassis! as she plunges the scissors into her fictional foe so convincing is she in that role.

The real difference is, one was one of the greatest singers ever, and the other one, was one of the greatest blues / Jazz singers ever.

Who do I listen to most?  Billie Holiday.

Cheers