Billie or Ella? Maria or Renata? Technique or feeling?

Exactly!  

Excellent post, stuartk. You wrote much of what I was about to write. You are exactly correct re the role of listener bias. For me an even more interesting question is why, when considering artists in the admittedly very small group at the very top level of excellence, some listeners feel the need to declare one or the other “the best” as if that opinion is some sort of objective truth. It is instead, and as you point out, at least in part a reflection of the listener’s bias. Moreover, to not keep a more open mind to this reality doesn’t enhance one’s acumen as a listener; it limits it instead.

Goes without saying, sls141,  but the problem is that technique is equated by some to mean absence of feeling. Why? Technique in the “hands” of a great artist opens possibilities of expression not available to an artist with limited technique.

No feeling/emotion? Gimme a break!

tylermunns, that is a terribly narrow definition of what a Jazz singer is; and one that I could not disagree with more.  Of the singers you mention, I may grant you Sinatra……maybe.  However, Ellla, Vaughn not Jazz singers?!  Ella Fitzgerald, with the possible exception of Eddie Henderson and today’s Kurt Elling was possibly the greatest vocal improviser ever.  There have been very few vocalists who have had the vocal technique and, more importantly, the command of harmony and the general vocabulary of improvised Jazz to be able to scat in a way competitive with good instrumental Jazz improvisers.  Surely, that alone puts her in the Jazz category.  Of course, all this in her generational style which was rooted in Swing and, as you say, American Songbook standards.  Btw, the vast majority of Jazz instrumentalist also used, and still use, the Great American Songbook as the primary source of their material.  So…..

Abbey Lincoln was fabulous no doubt.  Being a civil rights activist her later material reflects this.  Her “protest songs” during the time that she was married to Roach were a reflection of the social climate of the time; just as was some of the instrumental Jazz of that time.  However, her earlier recordings were centered on the American Songbook.  Does this mean she wasn’t a Jazz singer then?  

Good recommendations by tablejockey.

It’s interesting that the distinction is being made re “song book” material as concerns both Ella and Billie. The fact is that most of the material recorded by Billie is in fact, and like Ella’s…….also part of the Great American Songbook.

Two different singers with two different styles. Jazz is, stylistically, a lot of different things depending on the particular artist. In fact, individuality of style is one of the. key ingredients of Jazz. Ella’s was not as gritty and pained as was Billie’s. Does that make her less of a Jazz singer? I don’t think so. It’s also interesting that singers seem to be accorded less stylistic latitude than instrumentalists. Was Lester Young less of a Jazz player than Coltrane? After all, he had a beautifully light and smooth tone with perfect intonation (sound familiar?). Coltrane, on the other hand, had tons of grit and angst in his playing and tended to play a little sharp.

skyscraper, you may like this one:

But, tylermunns, the same can be said of practically every instrumentalist that played this music.  So, you’re saying that all those great instrumentalists that played, for instance, “All The Things You Are” were not playing Jazz at all?  That all those great performances of “three minute pop tunes” that served as vehicles for Jazz improvisation were not Jazz at all?  Not arguing, just trying to understand your  viewpoint.  Getting back to singers, please name other singers besides Lincoln that you consider to truly be Jazz singers.

In the meantime, how about a little non-Jazz 😉: