Billie or Ella? Maria or Renata? Technique or feeling?

@tablejockey Black Coffee b gr8. Is there anything it can't do?

All seriousness aside, I'll have the pleasure of checking out early Ella which I confess to not having explored.

@tablejockey Maybe you're referring to the later 60's and forward schmaltzy, overproduced "pop" Ella that many think of when she's mentioned?

Well early 60's. Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie!

We are lucky to have Audiogon where you get in depth knowledgeable posts.

I wuz jus reading about how motorcycle forums died under the withering influence of twitter.

@mike_in_nc I’m trying to get to know some of the newer singers who are interesting, not just blond and sultry. 

I for one will not stand by while you insult Taylor Swift who happens to have the hottest legs in show biz. 'nuff said.

Who are the great new male vocalists?

@danager I don’t know about opera

This one's for you.

Thnx for the Riff Raff - great name for a group. 

@danager. Re:clip of Tebaldi and Callas. Well you tried. More than that I cannot ask of any man. Or woman. They do say that the fastest way to empty a room at a hifi show is to put on some opera. 

Tebaldi was technically superior to Callas. Tebaldi was smoother and in this clip you can clearly hear the crackling in Callas voice as even her most ardent fan will admit. Yet with her more limited voice, Callas conveys more heartfelt emotion. I can't explain in a technical way how she achieves this, not being a singer. Her fans just know it as the Callas Magic.

The scene is from Puccini's Tosca with Tebaldi and Callas in the title role. Tosca is being seduced by the chief of police in exchange for the release of her lover from prison and torture. Here she mourns her predicament in the song I Lived for Art - Visse d'Arte singing that she lived a life of innocence dedicated to her craft.

In reality, Callas lived the life being partnered to the boor Aristotle Onassis who didn't appreciate her singing. He once questioned why she continued singing since he had enough money for both of them. (You may remember him for marrying Jackie Kennedy. It was considered scandalous at the time for a former First Lady to marry for money. Ted Kennedy brokered the deal in person.)

In the opera, Tosca stabs the chief of police to death rather than submit to his blackmail. I always imagine Callas is thinking Take that, Onassis! as she plunges the scissors into her fictional foe so convincing is she in that role.

@edcyn. Now we're remembering Callas, she was an audiophile. At the end of her life, she spent her days listening to her old recordings on reel tape. Prolly master copies. There is a photo of her in her apartment with her tape machine but even the all knowing internet couldn't find it. I'm guessing Revox A77 which was the go to machine in those far off days.

And a Furtwangler fan! See John Hunt's bio of Maria Callas. He was driving her and Beethoven came on the radio. Arriving at their destination, Callas insisted on staying in the car wanting to know the name of the conductor. Upon finding out she poured scorn. Ha! That's what passes for conducting today. We had Furtwangler.

@tylermunns To reduce an artist to a polarized representation of some manufactured binary makes no sense.

One man's reduction is another man's observation. e.g. Steve Vai shredder extraordinaire, but to what end? Technique per se is OK viz John McLaughlin who is shreddier than Steve but there is a musical point to all those rapid fire notes.

I got nuttin' agin' Steve you understand owning two of his signature guitars. Luv the monkey grip.

Steve Vai Zappa band. McLaughlin Miles Davis band. I rest my case.

@stuartk You do realize that you're describing your subjective experience here as though it were objective, right?  

You do realize you're not me so how do you know my subjective experience isn't objective, right?

@stuartk I've played CDs that I find very emotive for friends, only to witness them sitting  impassively.

You need better friends. I kid. I kid.

Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience playing a semi bombastic recording to a friend who rocketed out of his chair exclaiming Wow! That's the kind of full orchestral music I love! I was taken aback at the extent of his enthusiasm albeit gratified that he liked the recording so much (Kyung Hwa Chung playing Prokofiev's Violin Concertos).

@stuartk I'm guessing there are many fans of guitar shredders who'll assert they experience intense emotion from listening to their idols' gymnastics.

I have heard that proposition from fans of the violinist Jascha Heifetz who had superhuman technique. With age, I can meet them halfway. e.g. Heifetz/Reiner in the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. Nice nod to Mr. Buchanan. 

This technique vs feeling carries over into other walks of life. My chess hero Tal was known as the Magician from Riga. He would make one spectacular sacrifice after another until finally he somehow had his opponent cornered. His opposite was the calculating Keres but sometimes they'd jump into each others territory and Keres would play with flair while Tal became all neat and tidy.

I have to mention Ayrton Senna in F1 and his nominal teammate Alain Prost. There is a famous clip of Senna at Donnington in the rain coming from fifth place to pass the greats of his day as if they were standing still to take the lead. All before the first lap was over! 

Back to hifi. If you take the line that all is subjective to its logical end, what are we even doing here? Does it mean anything when someone says that a particular piece of equipment transported him to musical nirvana? We can cloak our opinions  in objective sounding language like the midrange was superb or I could really see the images of the instruments but it's all subjective is it not? Only if we accept that there is value in the subjective is there any point to a forum like Audiogon. 

These categories were invented by the salespeople at record companies so minimum wage store clerks would know into which bins to stick the records. With digital freeing us from physical storage everything can be reduced to two categories: good music and bad music. I vote Lawrence Welk as first inductee to the latter. I cringed when he came on TV and my uncle said You like music. Here's the show for you. And to be polite I had to watch. Prolly there's a Nurse Ratched somewhere saying Lawrence Welk is all some of the patients here have. 

* cultural reference

@skyscraper Both he (Lester Young), Coltrane and Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins are my all time sax favorites, all geniuses in their own right, just like Ella and Billie in theirs.

Prolly going to ignite yet another flame war, but what about Sonny?

At 4 AM in the studio, he announces I'm hot now. To the dismay of the engineer..

@tylermunns the songs of Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Harold Arlen, Rodgers & Hart, Irving Berlin, Rodgers & Hammerstein, etc. These are some of the greatest pop songwriters in history, but not what I would call jazz.

Substitute jazz for country + Broadway for rock n roll = You call it jazz, I call it bad Broadway. Sam does get to it after 5 minutes  in case you want to skip ahead.

The Geezenzlaws swinging out on a rope. That would be one of those things which seen cannot be unseen.

@tylermunns You are alright if you like country. For those unaware of what @tylermunns is talking about:

I do believe the gentleman you're talking about is not Jerry Jeff but Waylon. Y'know I just purely cannot resist.

Not to start a flame war, but @stuartk, is Ravel's Piano Concerto jazz?

https://www.you_tube.com/watch?v=cJOW5mlhH_Y

* remove underscore in word youtube.

** what a rare and delicate treat for the laureates!