I borrowed a friend's esoteric dv50s CD player. I could not believe the difference between it and streaming Spotify premium. I am now in the market for a CD player. One thing, the esoteric does not play DVD-R. Can anyone recommend a comparable CD player in the used market that does? I'm looking in the $800 - $1500 range.
- Anyone comparing mp3 to CD quality either isn't serious or has never done a straight-up comparison.
- I've got an Oppo 105 that sounds great but why would I ever use it? My CDs are ripped to AIFF and my SACDs to DSD. My Brooklyn DAC sounds even better. I use JRiver but if you want it simple rip it all to FLAC and use Windows' Groove Music app.
I have an Oppo 105 with extensive modifications by EVS. I used Tidal at the highest resolution. I compared the same recordings on CD and Tidal. It's easy to switch sources if you are using the same player. The Cd/Sacd/xrcd/dvd-a physical media sounds better to me every time. Now I use streaming only as a background music.
This is a mosh pit, i jump in. I been traveling this road for a time. I started streaming years ago with one of the first Sonos zone players & Napster. Quickly switched over to Deezer streaming at 16/48 as they had an exclusive contract with Sonos. Had an old Sony CD player I was using as a transport always sounded better with both sources going into my Wadia DAC via Coax. Decided to upgrade the CD player and demoed the Cambridge transport. No improvement so I stuck with the old Sony. Then I sprung for the Wyred4Sound mods to the Sonos and got a nice bump in SQ but it still got nudged out by the CD transport. Then the Sony died and I went without a transport. Next step, I got my paws on a Bryston BDP streamer and switched to Qobuz and compared that, @same bit rate, directly with the Sonos and the Bryston took the flag hands down. Always wanted another CD player just to see if it was still better. Finally scored a Bryston BOT-1 memory player that works with the BDP. Did a compare and now the advantage was gone. The streamer SQ was just as good as the transport. I gonna keep the transport so I can do a period rush by slidding in a disc and burn my buddies CDs to disk. Now I am convinced that with the correct setup, Streaming can sound as good as a CD.
If you then tie in Roon the streaming experience becomes even more compelling.
Note: The Wyred4sound Sonos ended up at my GF condo connected to a Shiit DAC and a pair of Audio Engine A5 powered speaker. Made for a tidy condo settup.
It may be too far down in this thread for this to be read by the original poster. Hoping that is not the case.
I am going to answer the actual question that you asked and address it. You will have astonishing results doing what you have asked about but it must be done in a particular way. For playback you will need a used DVD Audio format capable player. Many of these are also capable of playing SACDs. The key thing is that you will need to rip your CDs to a "music DVD" using either Roxio Titanium Toast on an Apple notebook or Roxio NXT Creator 5 or higher. They must first be converted to WMA files by the software and then burned to a "music DVD. You don’t need to buy the latest version of these programs and can find new lower versions of either of these on that auction site at lower prices.
I would suggest starting with a relatively cheap used DVD Audio capable player and then invest more if you really love what you are experiencing to get an even higher quality reading of the music DVDs. Some of the players I would look for are Denon, Integra, Pioneer Elite, or Marantz. Once you have recorded your "music DVDs" you will find that getting them to play is a little quirky. I have found that pressing stop twice on your remote control will cause any player that I have of this type to begin to be able to read the music DVD and play it.
I will be surprised if you do not have an exceptional result. Please feel free to contact me off the posting board if you have any specific questions. Have fun!
If there is buffering and reclocking after the mechanism, then a $20 mechanism is going to do just fine. Uncorrectable bit error rate is very low to 0 on CDs without substantial scratches, even with a cheap transport.
The difference in sound quality between a good CD player and a really expensive CD player is not the mechanism. I will state again, that unless it has significant scratches, error corrected CDs are bit accurate representations of what is put on them with the odd unrecoverable error. That is true with cheap mechanisms and has been for a very long time. Quite easy to rip a CD at single or 2x speed and see what the different error rates are, and that CD in your computer was even cheaper.
If you buffer and reclock, (assuming you have good power supplies), then you have isolated any impact of the mechanism on the output. It comes down to a good DAC and mixed signal design at that point.
That Bryston has a low(er) cost mechanism does not have to have any impact on the resultant sound if they design the rest of it properly.
@roberttdid, Yeah the BOT is a very simple device, not a single button on it. It buffers the read into memory, then error correction is done before sending it on to the BDP, as I understand it. I don’t know that much about Bryston but their support so far has been first class. It would surprise me if they manufactured something that would undermine their credentials.
The difference in sound quality between a good CD player and a really expensive CD player is not the mechanism.
I didn’t say it was the only thing sunshine, you have to stop looking for angles to make your self look good, it don’t work here. Have a look at the electronics and what you get inside with that cheap **** slot load transport, then compare it to what’s inside the ML 37 transport
This is not remotely how error correction works. There are many errors correction levels and it is most certainly not a "guess". The only time data is interpolated is after all the error correction fails which is very rare if the disk does not have significant scratches.
With a well aligned transport, which most are even inexpensive, and well aligned writer, BER for a good quality CDR media can be lower than a manufactured disk.
No wonder the burnt cd’s always sound brighter to many, there’s many
more errors being fixed, and that’s just a 50% chance to get a 1 or a 0
correct, because an error is replaced by what was read before, and
that’s a 50% chance to get it right. This is why many CD players won’t
even play burnt cd’s as they can’t even read the TOC (table of contents)
Go away, like I said can't see the forest through the trees.
For those interested in what happens when a byte can't be read.
If a scratch has created read errors, you’re not completely hosed., "there is a pretty good chance that an uncorrected byte still has a good byte on either side". If that’s the case, then your CD player will take an average for those two values "and make an "educated guess" about what the missing value should be in between". If the number of missing bytes gets to be too large, the system will suppress the error by muting the sound for a fraction of a second, which is hopefully too short a period of time to be detected. At a certain point, of course, you’ll start to hear the difference. Like when the CD starts to repeat.
Streamed for 2-3 weeks. Prefer cd and LP. Vinyl to me is the best sound! The mild crackles, ticks, pops are pure magic to me!
Which is why I record my LP’s to cd, and clean up a bit, but still love the vinyl tone.
Vinyl is the only music I play which my dogs (rip) never left the room, no matter the music, metal, blues, etc, they never left my side. laid on the couch with me, at my feet, etc!
I would put on a cd, and within 5 minutes, they would get up, and lay in the kitchen or upstairs.
Strange, goes to show the mellow tone and great sound of vinyl!
Try putting a 1kohm 1/4w resistor between L & R output of the cd player or dac your using, to bleed the channel separation down to around 30db It will richen things up a little as the best vinyl can do is 30db at 1khz but in the bass and up high it’s much worse around 10db.
What the 1kohm resistor does on the cdp or dac output is across the board approx 30db of channel separation, reducing it down some 80db from 110db, not exactly mimicking vinyl channel separation but a simple way to get the idea. The ideal would be a passive network between L & R to copy the channel separation characteristics of the Lyra cartridge graph below
This is the channel separation of a expensive Lyra phono cartridge, lower traces are the channel separation curves. https://ibb.co/FhhbHNZ
The Reed Solomon error detection and correction algorithms are much more effective for predictable errors like radial scratches and fingerprints than for unpredictable errors like scattered CD laser light and fluttering of the CD whilst playing, for which the laser servo feedback mechanism is not 100% effective. External vibration is also a big challenge for both Reed Solomon and the laser servo feedback system. That is why the sound you hear from a CD is missing information that is clearly audible on the vinyl or tape version of the same recording. And it’s why CDs frequently sound hard and 2-dimensional and sour. It’s not the CD’s fault, it’s the CD player’s fault. The CD itself contains all the intricate nano scale physical information, you just can’t extract the information correctly without rectifying all the inherent problems in the CD player. That’s the way the cookie crumbles.
For those that are interested when there is a bit-error, or even multiple bit errors, I do suggest reading about how it works, not the inaccurate guess stated below. Interpolation only occurs when errors cannot be corrected. There are multiple levels of error correction and fully 25% of the data on a CD is redundant. If you don’t scratch your CDs, then you will have almost no unfixable errors on your whole CD.
Contrary to what many believe, you don’t have data bits and error correction bits all closely packed physically, they are spaced around the CD to reduce the impact of scratches. You don’t have a "good byte" on either side that is used to guess the one in the middle. That is not remotely what happens. That only happens if the scratches / defects are so severe that error correction cannot correct them. The methodology used for CDs allow full correction of up to 4000 bits, or about 2.5mm: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.462.3524&rep=rep1&type=pdf
For those interested in what happens when a byte can’t be read.
If a scratch has created read errors, you’re not completely hosed., "there is a pretty good chance that an uncorrected byte still has a good byte on either side". If that’s the case, then your CD player will take an average for those two values "and make an "educated guess" about what the missing value should be in between". If the number of missing bytes gets to be too large, the system will suppress the error by muting the sound for a fraction of a second, which is hopefully too short a period of time to be detected.
If only there was a way of showing what the correctable and uncorrectable error rate coming off a CD rip or similar was available .... oh right, there is.
Fancy words, easily proven correct. So .... let’s have it. I am sure you have lots of data to support this hypothesis given how easy it would be to collect that data?
What, you don’t have any data to support your hypothesis. Color me shocked! Shocked I say!!!
The Reed Solomon error detection and correction algorithms are much more effective for predictable errors like radial scratches and fingerprints than for unpredictable errors like scattered CD laser light and fluttering of the CD whilst playing, for which the laser servo feedback mechanism is not 100% effective.
If only there was a way of showing what the correctable and uncorrectable error rate coming off a CD rip or similar was available
If you were an audiophile which your clearly not, you would probably know Arnie Nudell (rip) and Paul McGowan did such a thing (you find out what) and showed it to you in a numerical error counter on the display. Frightening seeing the differences between good and bad transports, that the error correction didn’t get right. The lowest count I saw was the Wadia T2000 transport using it’s AT&T High Speed"Glass Fiber" optical output connections using expensive indexing fluid on both ends. https://ibb.co/PYGZd7t
There is a good video on youtube about the ability to pick the higher res source (mp3 and wave file were used). Pretty interesting.....A young lady was used as the listener and I would assume being young, she had excellent hearing....in a few instances, she was unable to tell the difference and chose the lower res files...I think she scored 4 out of 6...I’m still looking for the link. Disclaimer: I’m fully content with the sound of my CD’s and associated equipment and have no desire to ever stream anything Hi-res. I do own many MA Recordings which in themselves are quite spectacular.
So let me get this right. You think that an optical output using AT&T high speed glass fiber somehow has an impact on the error rate reading off the mechanism. Well then, there is probably not much use of further discussion. Posting pictures of the Wadia does not make your statement any more correct.
You can’t measure error rate at the output of a CD player, or even a transport for that matter, you have to have access to raw data in the transport (or player) in order to determine error rate. I think there have been some players that showed it over the years, but not a popular features.
"Not an audiophile". Is this your poor attempt at "no true Scottsman" or simply an ad-hom? If you let me know, I can better address your attempted but poorly executed insult. Some of us actually care enough about acoustics and audio to have made both an academic and working career out of it.
p.s. I can’t remember anything from Arnie and Paul w.r.t. error rate testing at the output of a transport (since you can’t really do it, it is already corrected at that point), but I do remember a somewhat questionable "report" on jitter. Arnie really was into this concept of black CDs for a while too.
Iaf you were an audiophile which your clearly not, you would probably know Arnie Nudell (rip) and Paul McGowan did such a thing (you find out what) and showed it to you in a numerical error counter on the display. Frightening seeing the differences between good and bad transports, that the error correction didn’t get right. The lowest count I saw was the Wadia T2000 transport using it’s AT&T High Speed"Glass Fiber" optical output connections using expensive indexing fluid on both ends. https://ibb.co/PYGZd7t
Yes I should have a little more specific, for the one that likes to turn things around to make himself look good. Transport "Clock Error" "Speed Error!! is what it measures, not Tracking Errors. AT&T ST high speed glass fiber optical with indexing fluid helps reduce jitter, what’s with you!!!
And yes to those here, all three above are transport related errors and to how they sound, and why that slot loaded junk is not up to scratch, compared to a good transport. Cheers George
You are just digging A bigger and bigger hole. Jitter is not remotely the same as uncorrectable read errors. A buffered and reclocked CD player using a $20 mechanism will be near jitter free within the limits of the interconnect method which has nothing to do with the transport.
I don’t appreciate the constant attempts at personal attacks to cover up for your own lack of knowledge. Based on your own test it should be clear I am the real audiophile and you are not. You called me not a real audiophile based on my perceived lack of knowledge of a test that didn’t even exist. I knew what the tests actually was. Your test for an audiophile not mine.
You are applying 1980s and early 1990s CD architecture operation to newer CD players. As another has noted, where this all started, the Bryston reads into a buffer and reclocks. The mechanism is at that point meaningless to jitter. Your argument is akin to saying that jitter on a streamer must be huge because jitter over an internet connection is enormous. Obviously that is not the case.
I debated between getting another CD player when mine died and getting a Bluesound Vault. With good advice from a local audio store I went with the bluesound and never looked back. Loaded all my CD’s, buy them for $2 or so when I want something, can listen for hours with playlists. Don’t have to pay monthly for steaming or depend on network issues. Highly recommended.
Ignore me all you want, but that doesn’t change that a buffered and reclocked output negates timing issue in a low cost transport not to mention the way that error correction does work, not the way you claimed it does negates almost all errors except on well scratched CDs.
I am sorry that you think accurate information is twisted.
Buffering the data doesn’t prevent or correct the damage to data done when the laser attempts to read the physical data on the disc due to fluttering of the disc and scattered laser light getting into the photo detector. Buffering only stores the damaged data temporarily. The damage to the data and sound occurs in the first picosecond when the laser tries to read the data. All the King’s horses and all the King’s men couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty together again. 🍳
I too have learned that really high quality CD players can sound as good as or better than some server/streamer/DAC front ends. However, it seems that it is the quality and cost of the CD player that matters. I have a Rotel RCD 991 player that was most certainly mid-fi. With the addition of a Dexa low jitter clock, Burson Audio discrete Opamp replacement, some cap upgrades and precision resistors in the signal path, the player is transformed. My 1st step toward high resolution audio was a Mac Mini running JRiver into a PS Audio NuWave DSD DAC. The MM/NuWave certainly provides for information, data if you will, but not more music. A CD player can have the advantage of potentially lower jitter. No cables, no USB/Toslink/SPDIF/AES etc. to corrupt the signal. My CD player makes me want to listen more and more carefully. It draws me in and helps me make an emotional connection with the music. It is just more enjoyable and "musical" ( a meaningless term, unless you have experienced directly the "thing" that makes your toe tap and has you singing along). A few dedicated CD players can be the basis for very high resolution and accurate audio systems. I have heard and enjoyed some Audio Research units that were amazing. Bryston, Hegel (I have not heard in my home) and others have made some focused "CD only" players that one might want to try. CDs, better than you might think they are.
Except the error correction is designed to correct up to 4000 bit burst errors, hence why you have 0 tests or data to support your hypothesis even though this data would be ridiculously easy to obtain for almost free if not free. Without scratches unrecoverable errors are near nil with even a cheap transport.
CDRom only adds to the error correction of audio CD. They work, fluttering, scattering light and all, at 52x speed. Imagine that .....
Buffering the data doesn’t prevent or correct the damage to data done
when the laser attempts to read the physical data on the disc due to
fluttering of the disc and scattered laser light getting into the photo
detector. Buffering only stores the damaged data temporarily. The damage
to the data and sound occurs in the first picosecond when the laser
tries to read the data. All the King’s horses and all the King’s men
couldn’t put Humpty Dumpty together again. 🍳
I don’t have to prove anything. If you’re so smart prove me wrong, Mr. Smarty Pants. 👖 Betcha can’t. So far you’ve been shooting blanks. Perfect Sound Forever. Yeah, sure, pal.
My Esoteric SACD player with the VRDS NEO transport is one of the best transports out there used with the BB pcm1704 R to R ladder DAC gives me far better sound than streaming from any source. If I am feeling lazy, then I use the music server, if I want to listen to my system at its best, I use the Esoteric player. George, am I on the right track?
To the OP I copied all my discs to flash drives I connected to my roon core on a NUC I assembled and I don't hear any difference between the ripped version or streaming Qobuz. Same for playing the CD so I sold my player any new CDs i get I'll RIP. If you still want to spin CDs there are plenty of good players around. Marantz, Cambridge are a couple that come to mind.
If I am feeling lazy, then I use the music server, if I want to listen to my system at its best, I use the Esoteric player. George, am I on the right track?
Yes you are, like many others that have found out and gone back to "a good" CD transport to listen to, not a rubbish one with all it’s error correcting and jitter.
Or you could join the world in 2020, and realize that what was true in 1992, when flash memory was $100/megabyte, ram was $30-40/megabyte, and a good DSP was at least $20-30 is not the same world as today, when I can get all that for a couple dollars in reasonable volume, and it is more than enough to handle enough pre-buffering to never run out due to minor speed fluctuations from the transport, and would do so at far less power (i.e noise), than even the ECC chips in late 80's, early 90's gen processors.
Some people are lost in the forest, and are quite happy to be there. Problem is, they want to drag other people into the forest with them.
Stereo5, most likely is that Esoteric sounds the way you like. Not technically better than another DAC, but sounds the way you like. Playing off a local SSD or memory card offers the potential for far lower noise than the electronics required to run a CD transport and error correction/interpolation. Rip your CDs to storage, and many programs will tell you exactly how many uncorrectable errors there are (if any). Many will even take multiple passes in an attempt to get an error free read. Everything is done "offline" so any transport or other issues disappear. At that point, it really comes down to the DAC, and if integrated, you pretty much eliminate any jitter from an optical or electrical interface.
My Esoteric player is dated 2008. Ralph at Spearit Sound told me it was the third best player he ever heard, the other two were made by DCS. I really didn’t believe it at the time but this player sounds so right. The music server is a Sony HAP-Z1ES which Stereophile rated an A+ and it received a very high rating from TAS. The Esoteric player is better, not by that much but it is more enjoyable sound.
Hey @puffbojie
, Other than Spotify you never mentioned what the streaming config was? setup can make a significant impact. Streamer, DAC, Network config, interconnects etc.
Like a said before I have been streaming for years and been making little upgrades along the way each with SQ improvements. I stream internet radio. The station stream FLAC 16/44Khz. One of my configs is to stream off a URL via ROON. The other is to go directly to my endpoint using an app built specifically for the radio station. Significant difference in SQ for each implementation.
"The music server is a Sony HAP-Z1ES which Stereophile rated an A+ and it received a very high rating from TAS. The Esoteric player is better, not by that much but it is more enjoyable sound."
My observations, except that it is a Luxman SACD player, are similar. Even when using Luxman player as a DAC for SONY (with SSD). Differences are not that big, but I think they are consistent (no, I never did any kind of real test except "try this, switch to that").
Thankfully, I take it only as an interesting observation and it is the end of my involvement. Convenience prevails and I virtually never play CDs. And, to emphasize, difference may really be down to my preference and not to "better than...".
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