I am envious of your room dimensions, especially the ceilings. Way to go!
A sub/sat system might surprise you...utilizing two identical subs of good quality.
But for stereo, I recommend Legacy Signature II's or better. I have the Sig IIs and they are indeed full range speakers in my room. Although, being so large, I would consider a speaker more suited for my smallish, cube-like listening room. With treated walls, my Sig II's are almost too much. Sub-wise: in black, I would consider selling my pair of Sunfire Professionals. They were the largest of that line of Sunfire sub-woofers, driver-wise as well as "Carver watts" power output. tmon41@hotmail.com for any continued communication.
Whatever you do, take advantage of your wonderful listening area by purchasing speakers that are large enough to take FULL advantage of such a "space filled" area for acoustic reproduction. If you use subs, get them in exact matching pairs, and take home two. Do not let that glorious listening space be ignored.
Good luck and enjoy the search.
Truthfully Envious, tonehead |
There are so many choices to make, but only you know the kind of sound you are looking for. My room is essentially 20 X 30 X 25 high. My main speakers Coincident Pure Reference I bought used, two years old. My mono amps are PassLabs XA100.5's. They each drive 100 watts in pure class 'A' sound. Coincident speakers can be driven by as little as 25 watts or 500 watts, your choice. Right now I can drive well over 106 SPL at 10 feet. In my own humble opinion it is more about the sound you want and enjoy than an absolute number of power watts. All speakers are different at different levels of sound. Take time! By the way I also have two SVS Ultra13 subs that are blended in and helps create my own masterpiece. I had a friend down from Michigan to spend a few hours listening. He was astounded! And I had sold him previously, my Legacy Focus, which he loves.
Coincident speakers are built to hold an average 6 to 8 ohms across the frequency band to make selecting a power amp easier. These large speakers, weigh over 200 pounds and are reasonably priced used at around 10K versus 22K new.
The other choice to consider would be the BE-20 at roughly the same price. The sound is a little fuller. Usher BE-20 is their top of the line.
Either way you can't go wrong.
Choices choices nothing but choices.
Good luck and happy hunting!
Rich |
While I in no way consider myself in the same class of expertise as some of the respondents, I would suggest a look at Legacy Audio. Legacy is not as exotic as most of the suggestions here; But I heard the newest version of the Whispers at CES 2 years ago. The only speaker I liked better was the Anat Studio II, which is exponentially more expensive. I have a similar size room. I use two Legacy Focus and the sound really is unbelievable. I have a bit more power available in my amp which may help; But the New Whispers come with built in dual 500 watt Amps powering four 15 inch drivers each side. The extra power and piston area will surely go along way toward filling a large room. They are also very efficient. Have fun designing!
http://www.legacyaudio.com/products/view/whisper-xd/ |
a pair of altec nineteens would perform wonderfully in that large open space |
a pair of altec nineteens would perform wonderfully in that large open space |
Greetings from the MinneApple from an old ALTEC PRO rep!
My opinion is commercial tri-amped line arrays, designed for the room by an experienced sound contractor. You will be unhappy with "home" speakers at anything above background levels. Consider that all distortion products increase exponentially with cone excursion, while gain compression becomes a major obstacle when individual drivers are working past 10% of their rated power.
I use line arrays of common Klipsch speakers, floor to ceiling, wired in parallel for mutual damping, driven by a trusty old Adcom GFA-555 that loves 2.4 ohm loads. Even at 115 dB @ 10 feet, nothing is approaching clipping except your ears. To keep up the low end I use 6 powered subs in 4 locations to eliminate standing waves.
Get some bids from local sound contractors, study the Lansing Heritage website, and start with these resources from Chris Moon at HigherFi.com:
http://www.higherfi.com/amppower/index.html
http://www.higherfi.com/speaker_position.htm
Cheers and Happy Listening! |
I would suggest Genesis speakers. http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/
A person can find a pair of g300's for around $6000. The G200's in the $16,000 range. The reference loudspeaker (for which All speakers are judged); the Reference 1.2's occasionally surface on the used market in th mid to low $100,000 range---- The sound of these will make a grown man cry from pure bliss. Yes, after owning these; I can now die a peaceful man. |
My room is 28x28x12 cathedral.
The Evolution Acoustics MM2 solved all the problems
I tried many speakers and almost gave up on bad sound until the MM2. They fill the room magically.
The biggest problem with other speaks was always the bass or the foundation of the music. I think the powered woofers are the answer.
Other speakers I have tried but never cut it:
Dunlavy IV, IVA,V
Von Schweikert VR7SE
I Also could never integrate subwoofers correctly but had plenty of bass.
Evolution Acoustics MM2 are also adjustable |
I used to work at a dealer that sold Revel, Wilson Audio, Avalon, Avantgarde, Joseph Audio, and Ariel. I am now a composer and recording engineer. My advice is to buy speakers that are meant to fill a large space. I would look at the Klipsch Pro Cinema speakers first. Other options are vintage Altec Lansing (or new Great Plains Audio), or a custom/DIY horn hybrid. Most audiophile/consumer speakers are terrible with a large space. You might check out ALK Engineering, Crites Speakers, or Volti Audio for semi-custom solutions. Classic Audio Loudspeakers are great if you can afford to go that way. The Luxman rep. has a pair. Good luck. |
Thinking along the lines of Snook2, I would seriously consider getting a full range speakers and adding 2 powered subs (for example JL113). This will be more cost effective than a speaker with large woofers, gives you far more options, more placement flexibility and you can typically EQ the subs (eihter build in or separete sub EQ box. |
I would die to fill that room with sound
i used to drive klipsch LaScalas with about 500 watts per side
You need lots of power to get full base responce
never had a room large enough to open them up properly
Cheap date at about $2000.for a pristine pair.Very clean accurate quality speaker if you have a cathedral to fill!!
I have a two story room 30 ft long by 16 wide that i fill nicely with a pair of kef ref series four driven with four mono blocks at 600 wats a side |
You will need a very large horn loudspeaker or line array to fill such a space. Maybe consider used or custom built in your price range. |
Alex2, Anat3 Sig @10-20k?? (even used?) |
As a forty year veteran of home audio, imo large horns are the only way to achieve realistic fidelity in such a space. Add at least 3 subwoofers as the space will support real low frequencies with (probably) minimal modal issues.
JBL K2, or, better, Everest are elegant real world solutions & would work nicely w your electronics, as would large Tannoys.Ignore anything with a dome tweeter, cannot drive the space. |
I think by this time we are seeing what some of the issues are with filling a large room. Nearly everyone who mentions a speaker with lower efficiencies is also recommending a subwoofer and quite often some very powerful amplifiers.
The problem with this is always blend, and system complexity rarely contributes to musicality.
This is why I recommended the Classic Audio Loudspeaker. Fist off, you won't need a sub. The T3 has dual 15" woofers, one down-firing and the other forward firing. With 98 db efficiency, you will be able to operate a tube amp with only 60 watts and do nicely filling the space.
The problem here is that you can count the number of 500+ watt amps on one hand (with fingers left over) that sound like anything close to real music!
So if you have a speaker of higher efficiency you have a much wider range of amplifiers available!
A few years ago we set up a system at RMAF, in the biggest room (A ballroom) available at the show. I think the room was a good 120 feet long, and at least 60 feet wide. We had no trouble filling it with power to spare using a set of Classic Audio Loudspeakers and a set of Atma-Sphere MA-1s. For the most part the amps were loafing. That is how you want the system to work. If you are pushing it hard all the time there is no way its also going to be sounding its best.
|
+1 Atmasphere..
Exact same reasons I named big Tannoys.
Avoiding complication to system, and staying within stated budget (used). |
That's a nice size room. One speaker that would work well is Gold Sound Kit 14. |
Don't need 10-20k to fill the room & sound incredible. Buy the used Legacy Whispers listed at $4k IMO
If you want to spend more, get the newer HD's |
I agree with a horn speaker system or large Tannoys. Another possibility is the Jamo R909 that is moderately efficient. I know it needs a big room and would benefit with more power and current, but you probably could get by with the Luxman depending on your listening habits. |
"So if you have a speaker of higher efficiency you have a much wider range of amplifiers available! "
That may be true but you only need one and there are plenty to choose from.
There are many ways to tackle the problem effectively.
High efficiency is likley part of the solution somewhere, be it more efficient amps capable of delivering more power in a smaller more efficient package, higher efficiency speakers that require less power to sing, or perhaps even both together, or some middle ground even perhaps.
Lots of ways to skin the cat.
Tannoys and Classic Audio are certainly good contenders, but the there are many possible ways to skin this cat, including use of power subs, especially when already integrated into the speaker design by teh vendor, though adding separate subs can work very well also. |
Get the big Maggies and a "bigger" amplifier to drive them. With your budget, you can get the new Maggie 20.7's; if you want to spend less, you can get the 20.1's. The Maggies will love all of that room to "breathe". I know this sounds self-serving, but I would consider selling my 20.1's so I can get the new 20.7's. You won't regret getting the big Maggies, just as long as you give them enough power.
George |
These would be my choice for that room in the $10K range, if available. |
Further down the path after living with Tannoys, I subsequently had (2-3yrs with
each) - ProAc Response 4 - ML Prodigy - MG 20.1--drove them using FMA611/ARC
REF600 MKIII + REF3 + dCS stack.
While the MG20.1 had some beautiful natural room filling sound with great staging
(albeit slightly diffused), IME, they lacked that little lower midrange snap, and
midbass punch (dynamic) essential into waking up certain instrumentations to life
(drums, rim shots etc). Bass was big, but weighty they're not (without aid of good
subs). I then reminisced, and missed the good tonality (accuracy/beauty) of my old
Tannoys + valves. Which even with only 50 tube watts pushing, filled my rather large
old room with ease, and had amazing bass to boot which literally shook
door/windows (some serious air they moved!).
Hence, thus far, Tannoy Westminster/Royal, Classic Audio, JBL K2 (Everest - over
budget?) are the few good candidates recommended which I personally feel will slip in
just nicely into your current set-up. Of course, adding a nice little tubed amp, plus
newer source when budget permits later will easily up the ante - Still.. best try to
keep it simple, I'd say. |
I can tell you that when I heard the Classic Audio Repro speakers at RMAF in a VERY big room, they could play rock at realistic levels (not earbleed, but real kick-a$$). And remember, the room size we are talking about is almost 21,000 cu ft., more than twice the volume of the 30 x 30 x 12 room that Rtilden referenced. No knock on the Tylers; I've never heard them. Agree w Atmasphere and Johnk that the laws of physics and the logarithmic power/volume relationship pretty much dictate a high efficiency design. |
OK, guys, I'm chiming in again here. One day I will try to post photos of my room. I have read many helpful replies from Atmasphere over the years, and I find it hard not to go along with most all of the things he says. And considering his exposure to so much of the possibilities available, I would tend to defer to him. Yep, he's earned his street cred. My exposure is limited, but my listening room is actually a little larger than I had posted, and my Woodmeres do an excellent job with my CODA 15.0 amplifier. How loud do you need, boys? Huh? My spl meter reads 105db or more anytime I want to crank it. But my ears tell me that is not smart. I'm in this for the long haul, and so are my ears. Classical and jazz are my main venues, and I listen as loud as is reasonably practicable, any time I like, and dammit, my room and my seating position are experiencing realistic levels of concert music, at 5-20 rows back in a concert hall, depending upon the recording. Remember, this is my home, and I live in it daily. I do not base my knowledge upon hearing a rig in some showroom one time. I am by no means saying that my results could not be improved by different or larger speakers, but I am very pleased with my system and do not wish for any "more" delivery than I am getting. The OP tasked us with a budget, and I am respecting that. This post is offered only to give some perspective to the OP, from a music lover who listens daily in a rather large room. |
Rtilden, Thanks for the comments.
We have done 105 quite comfortably at shows (when things were working) and not been able to manage 95 db (when they weren't).
Even though I rarely play the system that loud, I can comfortably play 115 db at home without the system getting overbearing! I did work on the front end to reduce vibration in the turntable, CDP and preamp to that end. This means that at normal levels the system is utterly without strain!
Getting a relaxed sound is the key. Especially if its relaxed at high volumes. IMO/IME a system should never sound loud. You should be surprised that you have to yell for someone sitting next to you to hear you. If OTOH the system sounds loud and shouty when you turn it up there is a problem somewhere- something that is generating odd-ordered harmonics (microphonics, resonance, cone breakups, amp clipping etc.).
Mapman quoted something on a different thread which I am paraphrasing- 'It is THE luxury of high end audio to listen at high volumes without stress'. That's it in a nutshell and is why efficiency is indicated in this situation. |
I would recommend GR Research LS-9 or Super V's. Combine either of these with four servo subs and you could easily fill that room and fill it very well. |
I hope you guys are listening to Ralph (Atmasphere). His comments are exactly correct and can only be stated with such confidence when a person has lived with a good system in a large room. The comment about shouting is a common one with my wife and me, as the sound is so relaxed and natural. Our home is quite open from room to room in the public areas, and the Great Room spills into another 3 rooms which are again in the 30x30 range. While wandering through an adjacent room I sometimes stop in my tracks, marvelling at what sounds like live musicians playing in the Great Room, at natural levels. Yet another example of knowing when the system is 'right'. And, yes, I do attend live musical performances with sporadic regularity. |
Consider the Von Schweikert VR-44s or vr 35s.
You could look used and get a pair of VR-5s.
All of the above are simply stunning speakers. |
We're listening. Now, show me a C.A.R. T1 for 10 - 20 K. |
A little known speaker that would fill the room with great sound is the old Pro Ac Studio towers circa 1988. They were 5k new back then and you can probably get a good deal if you find a pair. The are efficient, play loud without distortion and need a large room to sound their best. |
I'd consider powered studio monitors like those from Genelec and Equator Audio. No audiophile speaker can match bi or tri amped professional monitors for accuracy at high volumes -
Equator Audio Q15 -
Description: Powered 15 2-way Reference Monitor
Frequency Response (+/- 3dB): 29Hz - 22 kHz
Recommended Line Level Input: 10mV-2V
Amplifier Power (LF/HF): 1000W/200W
Amplifier Peak Power (LF/HF): 2000W/400W
Sensitivity: 1w/1m output, 94dB
Max SPL (per pair): =117dB
Genelec
The Genelec 1039A is a very powerful monitor system, designed for large control rooms. It consists of a 320 litres speaker enclosure and a 7U 19" equipment rack which contains active crossovers, three channel power amplifiers and driver protection circuitry.
The speakers are designed for flush mounting in the control room wall, although they may be used free standing and can produce peak sound pressure levels in excess of 126 dB.
Audiophile speakers melt at these volume levels, as do the amps you need for them. |
'It is THE luxury of high end audio to listen at high volumes without stress'. That's it in a nutshell and is why efficiency is indicated in this situation'
This is exactly the experience I have had with the GR Research Super V.
I was shocked that I could talk to a friend next to me and we could clearly understand each other though the volume was at about 90-95 dB.
And the Servo Bass is the best you will hear anywhere. |
It is the luxury of Cerwin Vega to not hear the stress of the neighbors pound on the walls and door of your apartment. |
Ngjockey, I'm pretty sure you can get into a set of Classic Audio T3s, without the field coil drivers, for under 20K/pr. I thought they were about $16K. |
McIntosh makes Speakers that do very well in large spaces. My dad has a pair of XRT-22's and they fill his huge great room with incredible sound.
matt |
So did you make Addison and if so what are your impressions? |
GR Research GS-9 line array. One in rosewood is just imposingly beautiful too! |
Woops...Did you make a decision?
I would second the GR Research again. The LS-9 or the Super V's are both phenomenal. |
Agree with the GR Research LS-9s.
Add a couple of JL Audio subs with the extra $ and you will have it going on. |
Tannoy Definition DC10Ts would probably be a good match for the room; the dimensions are terrible, though, a square with height as half of the other two dimensions. |
