well it definitely depends on what your other components are. But amps are to drive speakers, so your choice will depend on your speakers.
For 2 years i felt my Sonus Faber Concerto Domus are not getting enough juice from my SF Power 2, so i tried the VTL MB125 (did not better the Power 2), DNA-125+TLC-1 (bettered the Power 2), but it is the KRELL FPB 200c+SFL-2 combo that brought my babies singing with practically unlimited power and control.
I am happy with the FPB 200c and my SF Concerto, and my trusted SFL-2 brings them together pretty well ;-)
.e. |
I wish you great success with the MX-R's, I have heard them and they sound very similiar to the FPB600. Perhaps your system synergy will be positive:) |
I've enjoyed the FPB 600 very much but mine may well be for sale here soon. I recently purchased the MX-R monoblocks and will be receiving them soon. Many feel the MX-R is a great match for the 5As. I'm doing the audiogon audition since an ayre dealer is no where near me. I'll probably hold onto the Krell a few weeks to make sure I haven't made a dreadful mistake but based on the comments of others and reviews I've read I'm guessing my FPB 600 will be on the market. I don't have the space(or strength) to keep them both. |
"lacks finesse and texture" Your right, "That, of course, is subjective and one person's opinion." I find Krell's power amplifiers not only handle macro-dynamics well, but, micro-dynamics (finesse and handling?) as well, if not better than most other power amplifiers. IMO, lacking texture is a positive attribute. I respect your opinion, and usually agree with it (ha!), but differ on this one. To each his own. |
To each his own is exactly the edict by which one should approach these discussions indeed. It would also help if we left our bias at the E-door (we all fail at this). Funny, how most of the products I mention in my discussions have had great success and staying power in the high end market place, with many devout users and a tremendous used market significance. Also interesting is the audio Du Jour, which sets the world on fire and then quietly fades away into oblivion. I predict that as the new generation of would be audiophiles enter the market (the convenience generation), alternative technologies will be adopted more and more, with diminishing quality (driven by cost cutting measures). Great gear has staying power long after the fads die...I look for quality, value and longevity in a brand that delivers an exemplary product amidst a sea of alternative overhyped, overmarketed audio Frankenstein Monsters:) Of course some people like pretty sounding alternative gear that makes everything sound like what they imagine real music sounds like! |
>>The FPB 600 is one of THEE finest amps ever made<<
That, of course, is subjective and one person's opinion.
I totally disagree; certainly a powerful monster but like most Krells it lacks finesse and texture.
Reminds me of a 60's era muscle car. They went extremely fast in one direction but their handling and cornering was pitiful.
To each his own. |
The FPB 600 is one of THEE finest amps ever made...I owned one once and wish I had it back today! I remember demo'ing the 600 before I bought it against an ARC VT200 on wilson watt/puppy 6's (which I also purchased) and it sounded identical except for it's unlimited dynamic range and bass control. Keep it..you will miss it when it's gone. |
I use a Krell FPB 600 and it probably wouldn't be my first choice today(Ayre or Audio Research more likely) but you can get good sound out of the old Krell gear if you work with it. Full class A biasing has it's advantages which I think are often overlooked. |
Funny fenderny.
Adolescence is such a great time.
Good luck in high school. |
I am somewhat ambivalent regarding Krell.
I have heard some very good value systems demo'ed with Krell amplification recently and some other overly expensive systems that totally fell flat.
Maybe part of the problem is that those who sell Krell are not always on top of their audiophile game and do not always set things up correctly or have golden ears? Or quality control issues maybe? I truly do not know.
These mixed results I've experienced though, whether just perception or not, have always tempered my enthusiasm for the line compared to some others that maintain a more sterling reputation in my eyes. |
CLASS, CLASS, CLASS, SSHHAAATTAAAPP!
Thank you.
All kidding aside boys and squirrels, I have been on this monster Class A Kick of late. Probably why I like the old Krell KSA series, Pass Alephs, and a few others. I would guess over 95% of the amps out there are Class AB, and just don't sound as sweet. Of course these Class A amps won't be winning any efficiency awards anytime soon.
Although a few AB'ers like older Naim (NAPs) stick out as very nice sounding too. |
Study hall. You can remember what that is? Impressive... |
OK, Fender and 'Feil in my office NOW! |
Funny stuff fender.
Did you write that during study hall or detention? |
"It isn't always "monster profits" - high quality furniture with high quality finish costs money even if a chair is still a chair when you sit on it."
Given the choice to sit in a Lawn Chair or an Eames Chair, I know what I would choose. But lets not get to crazy on your concept. I understand your point, but an amp is a bit different than a chair.
As far as audio gear, I think people first like the sound, then the looks comes second. Those that believe the opposite are most likely just passing through this hobby.
Some manufacturers, like Rowland, Pass Labs, Manley, etc manage to achieve both. Beautiful sounding gear with looks that do not disappoint.
My wife hates big speakers, until she saw my Magnepans. Come to think of it, an Eames Lounge Chair would look perfect flanked by my maggies. They looks so perfect together. Too bad at over $3000, the Eames chair would dwarf the cost of my gear. |
Interesting. A dinosaur discussing people riding dinosaurs..... |
Someone has to sell to all the cavemen out there with Geico money. |
Audiofeil,
Your a salesman. It is not beneath you to pump and dump to suit your livelihood.
It is funny that the customer is always right only when you are able to convince him to buy something you are selling. Tell me if customer after customer came in asking about Krell, you wouldn't sway your opinion?
When I want a real unbiased opinion on anything, the last person I ask is a salesman. I trust you also do the same.
I like what I like, just like many here on this forum. Bashing what I like because you can't make a dime off me really gives me caccapants. |
They put it in a nice chassis and made a monster profit. This is most likely your best selling Bel Canto - admit this. Yes and No. Much as I don't want to jump in and defend high priced items. The reality is that the packaging on most audio gear is the most costly part. Machining nice knobs - a brushed steel fascia with neat details and curves all add significant cost. Veneer and wood work finish is the most expensive part of any audiophile type speaker. This gear is meant to be looked at by a proud owner - and everyone knows the placebo effect - if it looks great then one will be predisposed to expect it to sound great. For example, in a Benchmark DAC1 the front fascia and knob are more expensive individually than the selected critical components that make the sound. Bel Canto products look really nice - a very high quality finish - they also probably sell less volumes than cheaper products and that is probably why they cost so much. It isn't always "monster profits" - high quality furniture with high quality finish costs money even if a chair is still a chair when you sit on it. |
>>I think you should give Krell a little more credit<<
Well Biff, I talk to dozens of customers every week and very few, if any, serious audiophiles still ride a dinosaur to work.
Yabba dabba do. |
Audiofiel:
I have had a Bel Canto S300. It was nice sounding, nothing really that special. I opened her up and saw a standard ICEPower ASC200 module. Sold the S300, bought two ICEpower ASC200 modules on ebay for $69 each. So lets get this "Value" thingy right. I built my own $2500 Bel Canto S300 for less than $250. They put it in a nice chassis and made a monster profit. This is most likely your best selling Bel Canto - admit this.
Now Bel canto make some very nice stuff on the higher end (their valve amps are excellent - so I have heard).
Now the Krell. I built a KSA-50 amp and my Magnepan MGIIIa have never sounded better. Ever. Now Krell didn't slap in a pre-manufactured module and call it their own. The Krell KSA50 is not a terribly complicated amp, but it work some special magic as far as I am concerned.
Bottom line is I think you should give Krell a little more credit. I fail to believe they are a has been as you indicate. |
Hi Stevechan,
I've been following the discussion. As I stated earlier I went ahead and purchased a Plinius SA 50. This is a very good amplifier. The truth is there's a lot of good equipment out there and it all boils down to personal preference. Myself, I have come to the realization that I do like tubes better than SS even though I will listen and even purchase a SS piece of equipment ( like I just did ) because sometimes the lower frequencies leave something to be desired from tube amps. Going back to the thread, I've only owned one piece of Krell equipment, the very nice Krc 3. The Krc 3 is one of the most underrated preamps out there. I sold it because I like to try new equipment and to see how well it meshes with what I have at the moment. At the time I owned the Krc 3 I had it paired to the BAT VK 200 and I have to tell you, that was one of the best combos I ever had. To close, I would like to try a Krell amp, hence the thread, but i'm only interested in the FPB and later generation. The earlier Krell does not interest me for a reason I cannot explain. |
Wireless200,
I tend to think you're right. I've obviously built a system around my amp that sounds good to me. This may not be the prescribed way to assemble a system but it's the way mine has evolved. I am afraid if I spend big bucks on one of these newer "smoother" amps I'm going to feel like the life's been sucked out of the system and spend even more trying to recapture it. My speakers are Vandersteen 5As which I really feel do benefit from a shot in the arm of strong juice. |
Hooked up a HiFi-tuning plug today and I was amazed at how much more analog like my system sounded. Truly an amazing piece of technology...IMPROVEMENTS ACROSS THE BOARD!! Smoother less strident treble with more complexity, enhanced dimensionality, more natural sounding midrange and better defined bass with an overall enhanced acoustic space. Reminds me of LP sound minus the flaws. |
I think Ayre and Krell are light years apart in sound. If you've been listening to Krells with Bat tube Preamps for the past 10 years, I would expect you think most other amps especially some of them to sound a bit lifeless. Krell is as lively as the come IMO and you've probably got a nice touch on it with the tube pre. If the Krell sound isn't bothering you and obviously it isn't too much I'd stick with it. |
I have a FPB 600 that I've been using with BAT tubed preamps for about 10 years now. It's always been a wonderfully lively and dynamic combination. Negative opinions on Krell products have prompted me to audition many amps in that time in search of an "upgrade". Most recently, I heard the highly reguarded Ayre MX-R(admittedly with different speakers than mine)As much as I wanted to like the Ayres, coming home to the life and energy of my own system was a breath of fresh air. I'd still like to hear the Ayre's in my own room but no one's going to convince me that Krell doesn't make a worthy product. |
Do it Lush...I just love my 400xi with the Transparent MM on it. I've heard great things about the Sim 7 etc...good luck and happy listening. By the way I found a use for my other cable. |
I have been in this hobby for a number of years now...knowing what cables are exactly (tone controls) I have a hard time spending money which is almost equal to that of a component upgrade. For a bit more money (then the recommended power cables) I could simply turn around and buy a better amp i.e. SimAudio i-7, Tri-Vista, used Gryphon etc... |
Lush,, try an MIT Magnum or higher PC and let me know what you think. I have an unused Transparent MM PC that you could have for a steal if you're interested (list $2000...sell it for $650). Interesting to note that other cable manufacturers are now getting on board the MIT train and putting networks on their PC's...Harm Tech, Purist etc.. |
I currently have tried an XLO and Blue Circle PC and have heard little to no improvements on the Krell. Strange. |
Congrat's Stevecham on giving the 400xi a well deserved upgraded PC. As I've said before, most people are unaware of just how good the smallest krell is when used properly! Enjoy the music. |
Just installed Harmonic Technology AC15 2 meter power cable for my 400xi (thanks Darren!) and, wow, what an improvement over the stock cable!
Much, much larger soundstage and separation (wait that isn't, those aren't monoblocks is it, are they?) with increased height and depth. There is more "sweetness" to the timbre of naturally recorded instruments with greater dynamic range, even at low to moderate volume while listening to Vaughan Williams on Chandos. I have no idea why this works technically but this is certainly a major improvement.
Note to 400xi owners: please do upgrade your PC to at least an HT. As Daveb said, this does make a huge improvment. More comments later, for now I just want to enjoy...
Steve |
Part of me wishes I would have spent more time working with my evo hear before I digarded it (mostly for financial reasons truth be told). My slight gripe with the evo setup I had was perhaps the 202 preamp which seemed constricted dynamicaly...I've heard the 222 since and think it's more musical and dynamic (you definately did the right thing in going with the one box player). I do find that Dan's designs get the music more right overall rhan any other..to my ears anyway. Enjoy what you have 4425...it's a precious gift!! |
Just now seeing this thread I want to comment that my experience with a EVO 222 pre and 302 amp(I own them) connected with a Tara cast cable provides as musical and grainless a sound as I have ever had to include ARC, Dartzeel and MBL all within the last two years. Krell elicits a lot of opinions, many negative imo because Dan A may be a bit arrogant(he's entitled) and they haven't been show friendly etc the last few years. I think their politics may not be all they could be but the sound and build quality is outstanding and competes at the very top level of solid state gear. When you consider the cost of European gear vs. USA built Krell it's a no brainer to at least hear the gear before judging it. In closing I also have had FPB amps which were also quite good but Dan knows what he is doing and I think the EVO lineup is awesome and a move forward. |
Harm Tech makes a great cable line, in fact I was sent some of their original designs upon startup for demo and to assist distributership. My favorite was the Truth Link IC...not the most expensive but I thought it was tremendously open, natural and dynamic! |
Well, I can't afford an MIT AC2 cable right now but I do have an HT AC15 PC on the way for the 400xi. I'll let you know when I get this installed and have listen. |
The Evolution One amps are amazing, however the Evo 402 was not due to removal of class A pre driver stage, doubling of the parts content to deal with the notch distortion and the introduction of Krell's own version of power filtration...results were considerably less than expected. |
|
Dave b,
Hey man it sound like you finally got there. I congratulate you, this can be a long and expensive trip and sometimes some people never make it. I know what you mean about a component having synergy with an accesory, I think i'm on my ninth or tenth amplifier now. Looking back there has been a few occasions when a power cord or interconnect bring the entire system to a level uninmaginable before. Case in point for me was the Harmonic Technology Cyberlights Interconnect with battery pack. That was stunning for me. I regret selling it now. Anyways, cherish what you have, as you know better than me, it can cost so much more and even then you might not like as much. Take care. |
Audiogabby, I have been around the block with audio gear for about 30 years now. I have owned the likes of Krell evo, Levinson, ARC, BAT, CJ, Wadia, Wilson, Dynaudio, Macintosh, etc...well, you get the point (6 figure reference gear). My recent system was assembled from one of my local dealers with the intent to be a stop gap between mega systems..until I decided which direction to embark upon. Well, after tweaking and dialing everything in and the fact that I already had MIT Oracle cables, it sounded pretty darn involving. In fact, it sounded damn good...clean, pure, dynamic and very alive with lots of color. I had been using other great power cords with what I thought was superb results, but when I put the Oracle AC 2 in place I was in disbelief at what I was hearing! Noise floor is non-existent...so low that all of the subtle
information and acoustic ques that we hear in the hall were rendered vividly and so easily that it was startling. Dynamic gradations and contrasts are so realistic that the soundstage comes alive and breathes with a tonal rightness and such a lack of distortion that it will shock you!! Frequency extension of the music is so far out in both extremes and with such purity and control that nothing describes it better than to say it sounds live and unadulterated. Transparency is crystalline, effortlessly rendered and has a see thru quality that takes you out of the hall and into the street (never new so many recordings had road noise bleeding into their recordings). Dimensionality, ambience, decay, layering, instrument voicing and above all else EMOTION is in such bold relief that to not at have it in your system after having heard what it can do would cause panic and withdrawel symptoms on the level of a heroine addict in need of a fix!!! If music is as necessary to you as it is for me...a refuge from the everyday, a transporter to other realms, a bastion of things miraculous and meaningfull, then it will get you closer than ever to that end...your own personal Holy Grail. |
Dave b,
Can you tell us exactly what is that the MIT AC2 does to the 400xi ? Does it tighten the bass, extend the frequencies extremes, adds speed, blacker background, cavernous soundstage? What exactly is the amp doing now that it didn't do before. I'm trying to get a better idea here. Thanks. |
I have to say that I am still realing at the difference my new MIT AC2 power cord has made in my system..it is just miraculous!!! |
The Plinius SA 50 is deep and controlled in the bass with good imaging also. The presentaion is not forward but inline with the speakers. The highs are nice ( not hard ) even though not the most extended. The midrange is warm and detailed. You are able to understand Drink Small :) The amp also has great instrumental timbre. Overall, this is a great power amp that has gone unnoticed because there bigger brother get all the attention. |
Nice unit Audiogabby...enjoy! |
Well, I have been reading every now and then. I have to admit though, that I didn't get a Krell. I went with Plinius, sorry Krell fans but the price was right. Maybe down the road I'l try a Krell but for now i'm pretty impressed with the Plinius SA 50 i just picked up here about a week ago. |
The Krell sound is not for everyone but I do know one thing - they are built like tanks. I saw a dealer literally drop a 400Xi from about waist level onto solid concrete. The Krell chipped the concrete and there was barely a scratch on the corner of the Krell. They dealer obviously thought it wouldn't work but we plugged it in and it sounded fine. You could barely tell that it had even been dropped when examining the corner it fell on. Just a small smudge was all there was. I owned one (not that one!) for a while and could really appreciate what Krell does well. It makes your best recordings sound fantastic. My best recordings were about 10~20% of my collection. OTOH hand Whoa Nellie it made bad or mediocre recordings just unlistenable. Anything with compression or boosted highs sent me right out of the room. I eventually went with McIntosh and at least 80~90% of my collection sounds great. I can live with that for now. Also adding a tube preamp helped things along nicely. |
((Jeez, if the Pentagon was to design power amps I think they would look just like Krell.))
High praise indeed. Although never much of a fan of Krell's cosmetics, I love what their amps can do.
But if someone dislikes a product so much why would they even contribute to a thread asking which model sounds the best? |
The KAV series is extremely deserving when utilized properly. I am getting some of the best sound I've ever had from my 400xi and SACD std V3 and I've even owned the Evo kit! The problem is that entry level components are rarely cabled properly or given appropriate PC's. I'd put the krell 400xi up against just about anything out there. I love the little bastard. |
To respectfully counter Unsound's assertion, and as a happy owner of both FPB and KAV series components, I do believe, no, correct that, I am certain that the KAV series deserves to wear the Krell logo. The KAV series underscores how Krell HAS kept apace with current trends in the industry while maintaining integrity and audible "vision" to the current and future needs of its customers.
And I know an op-amp when I see one, and I don't see them here.
So Audiogabby: how are you doing with all this discussion? Are you any closer to the answers you seek? |
My favorite Krell's were/are the KMA 160's and the KMA 400's. They may be considered old by some, but IMHO they are the epitome of classic Krell's and are still competitive. With all due respect to Mr. D'agostino, I don't believe the intergrateds and KAV series deserve to wear the Krell logo. |
