Best Record Cleaning Fluid
Black records sound better and last longer because the carbon black makes the vinyl harder (less compressible) and supposedly there are trace amounts of lead in it that act as a lubricant making the vinyl more slippery. I could only find one post on this. There is a post on Vinyl Engine that is a beautifully written sort of hoax where a guy named Vince comes up with a lot of old patents aimed at making vinyl records better by adding this that and the other. None of this was ever done on a commercial basis. The bit about heated PVC making HCL is the funniest part. My guess is that these myths about records were generated by people and companies that make record cleaning stuff as a reason to buy their stuff. I also forget to mention that Tergitol which as voiceofvinyl related earlier is used by the Smithsonian to clean record has a hydroxyl group stuck to the end of it:))) That would make it.......an ALCOHOL. Noe I have to figure out a way to get clearthink to use brake cleaning fluid on his records:) |
cleeds, by all means stick with your distilled water and ultrasound. But you'd better be careful because according to Mr Kirmuss if you use the wrong frequency you could damage your record! Lets think about this for a second. A record will take several thousand pounds per square inch of stylus trying to dig into it at a rake angle of 20 degrees but it can't handle ultrasonic water bubbles? Boggles the mind doesn't it? |
mijostyn ... stick with your distilled water and ultrasound. But you'd better be careful because according to Mr Kirmuss if you use the wrong frequency you could damage your record!My LPs have suffered no damage at all. I've actually tested the US cleaning method: I subjected two different LPs to a 30-min cleaning cycle, which is much, much longer than I use in practice. I then compared recorded waveforms (one made before cleaning, the other after) and found no difference at all. A record will take several thousand pounds per square inch of stylus trying to dig into it at a rake angle of 20 degrees but it can't handle ultrasonic water bubbles?At 20 degrees, you're confusing "rake angle" (SRA) with VTA. VTA would commonly be around 20 degrees; SRA would be about 90 degrees. This notion that a stylus exerts "several thousand pounds per square inch" has been often repeated, but I've never seen any math to support it. It would be tricky to calculate, because not all of the VTF is applied to the stylus tip - some of it is transferred from the sides of the stylus onto the groove wall. Some others believe that there is extraordinary heat generated at the stylus tip. I've never seen any documentation to support that, either. Measurements I've made with an infrared thermometer don't support the claim. |
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Sorry, but there are many additives used when formulating the pvc resin pellets for molding vinyl records, including plasticizers. These are not applied to the stampers, they are formulated when making the pellets for vinyl records. Read here: https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=99579 Quote: “Most of the added (non-polymer) plasticizers are solvent soluble. Studies by preservationists on PVC artifacts has shown plasticizer extraction with solvents, including alcohol (at concentrations 60% and higher) *6. Hence, it is reasonable to keep alcohol (and other solvent) concentrations as low as possible in cleaning solutions.” |
voiceofvinyl, that is exactly the thread I commented on before. It is quoting old patent applications. None of that stuff is used in the commercial industry. Look at the comments below in that thread. It is all a big joke. The only stuff in PVC pellets is PVC and Carbon Black. If there were other additives you would be able to find 1000 threads on line about what that stuff is and you can't because I just spent an hour looking to make sure I was not FOS. You also did not read my comment on the Tergitol. Tergitol is an alcohol! All the record cleaning companies want you to know alcohol is bad for your records so you will buy their stuff. Don't fall for it. Cleeds, It is Mr Kirmuss who says that not me. Ultrasound is perfectly safe. Look at your stylus carefully from the side. If you have not bent your cantilever and your tonearm is parallel to the record your stylus vertical axis will be angled around 20 degrees with the tip pointed back towards the tonearm bearing. If it is not I would send it back and ask for a refund. It is angled like that because that is the angle the cutting chisel makes. As for the pressure a stylus exerts on the record that is simple math. You just have to know the combined area of the two contact patches. Use a weight of 2 grams then just convert the whole mess into pounds per square inch. Why don't you figure it out for us. As to whether of not vinyl goes liquid at that pressure I sort of doubt it. As you suggest friction and pressure generate heat. But I know of no infrared thermometer with resolution high enough to read the contact patch of a phonograph stylus. At any rate the vinyl recovers and the wear rate under clean conditions is pretty slow all things considered. |
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LOL - I searched MelodyMate and received a bunch of Porn weblinks! Back to the point... Lots of discussion about rinsing. It seems that rinsing is cleaning product dependent - would you agree? Maybe it is a good idea for all cleaning, but I'm quite lazy and really don't want to go through a three step process, or having to do a rinse. Confirmed with the Okki Nokki people that their cleaning fluid is 4% alcohol. I'm going back to ask what kind of alcohol. I assume that is is Isopropyl, which sounds fine from all the counsel in this post. Then we get into splitting hairs on what the potency of the alcohol is. You can tell I still haven't made up my mind what to purchase next. I figure at the rate that I am spinning LPs that I need something in bulk, not the 4oz bottle product. Thanks to everyone chiming in! |
Having worked in the plastics industry most of my career I can confidently say that if you are doing a patent field search to find the ingredients in a vinyl resin formulation you will not get an accurate understanding of what’s actually being used by a processor. A lot of additives, like some of the one’s used to make the surface of the vinyl play quietly, are trade secrets and thus not disclosed. I will just disagree that all vinyl resin pellets used to make the bisquit are 100% virgin vinyl. As such I will minimize my use of alcohol on the records I truly care about. I hope you can handle this. |
voiceofvinyl ... if you are doing a patent field search to find the ingredients in a vinyl resin formulation you will not get an accurate understanding of what’s actually being used by a processor. A lot of additives, like some of the one’s used to make the surface of the vinyl play quietly, are trade secrets and thus not disclosed.That makes sense to me. But there are some people who are convinced that every fact known to man can be found within an hour or so using Google and the Internet. I will just disagree that all vinyl resin pellets used to make the bisquit are 100% virgin vinyl.Indeed, some labels tout their own unique formulation, so I'm inclined to agree with you. As such I will minimize my use of alcohol on the records I truly care about.I stopped using any of the magic cleaners, potions, and alcohol-based solutions when I went to US cleaning. I've needed nothing but distilled water since. I'm not sure why some people think they need brake cleaner to clean an LP - yet at the same time, others seem to think a stylus will gouge all of the dirt from the groove. |
Very few records are made of 100% virgin vinyl. The industry standard is 70% virgin and 30% recycled. The recycled is coming from the trim pieces created during the pressing process. A small amount of PVC is extruded beyond the 12 inch circumference of the record. This is trimmed off and recycled. Problem is that it is exposed to possible contamination which might make the next record noisier. There are several videos that show this process. The so called virgin vinyl records have none of this remix in them. But still, this is a complicated process which can be contaminated at many levels. It is very difficult to maintain an absolutely clean process and remain commercially viable. In regards to additives I would be happy to see absolute proof that anybody is adding anything to the PVC other than colorant. Additives would only increase the cost of the vinyl and so far have only created inferior product as far as I can tell. I would be willing to bet that all the pressing plants are getting their PVC from one or two sources that make pellets specifically for the purpose of pressing records. Unique formulations? My back side. These people have a hard enough time keeping the vinyl clean and noise free. PVC needs no help doing its job otherwise. All those patents have been ignored by the industry. Call up a pressing plant and ask them where they get their PVC pellets from then call that company and ask if they add anything to the PVC other than colorant. Provide us with the companies and their phone numbers so we can verify the information. Prove me wrong. Make me learn something. I hate hidden secrets and all this mystery. |
Cleeds, I am saying this independently of my other posts so that when you report me to the moderator he doesn't erase all the really important self serving stuff I have typed about elsewhere. Is your stylus aimed in the right direction? 20 degrees is pitiful. I doubt it would work at that angle. You might try some lube. |
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Indeed, some labels tout their own unique formulation, so I'm inclined to agree with you.Yes. Remember “Quiex II”, “Quiex SV” and JVC’s Super Vinyl among others? They play very quietly. It takes more than minimizing re-grind to get records to play black quiet. I would mention that the Dynaflex pvc was (allegedly) formulated to play quietly, and generally they do, but my source is unreliable. To my knowledge RCA has never gone public with the use of an additive for those pressings. As far as patents including claims or embodiments that never get implemented....it’s smart (defensive) Intellectual Property strategy- claim as much land around your preferred embodiment as you can afford to defend. |
I am still using a Nitty Gritty cleaning machine that I have owned for many years with the cleaning solution from Nitty Gritty. It seems to do the job pretty well I think. I haven't had any reason to upgrade this to a different machine or use a different cleaning solution. If anyone out there uses a Nitty Gritty machine but knows of a better cleaning solution to use with it then I would be interested to know about it. |
Voiceofvinyl, there have been many approaches to making records mostly adjusting gain, various compression schemes and adjusting the weight of the puck. Wickipedia has a long article on this and it does talk about all of RCA's meanderings. Columbia was another company that tried various approaches in competition with RCA. I have several JVC Super Vinyl records, excuse me they are JVC Direct Discs, the three Lee Ritenour records, Gentle Thoughts, Sugar Loaf Express and Friendship. They are great records. I terms of quality they used a thicker puck and the Japanese are a lot more fastidious about their pressing technique and cleanliness so their pressings are very quiet. You will notice that all the highest quality discs are done on black plastic. The carbon black does have lead in it and if you have ever handled raw lead it is slippery and feels sort of greasy. Other colored discs are noisier. My own experience backs this up. Having said all this the absolute quietest discs I have are British! Older EMIs , Decca and Mercury pressings are just wonderful. Only Analog Productions comes close to that level of quality. I suspect it is due to things like cleanliness, less or no recycled vinyl and changing the stampers more frequently. |
All records are dirty. Even brand new. Have you ever toured a pressing plant, or seen videos of one? Records are not produced in laboratory style clean room, but more like a factory situation. So clean all records new or used for best results. Also, do not put records back into the sleeves they come in, especially if they are just plain paper sleeves. These shed and scratch every time the LP is removed or replaced.For off the shelf cleaners I have tried:Nitty Gritty, VPI, Last, Super Cleaner, Premier, and a few others. All did at least a good job, but Torumat was my favorite, until I found Audio Intelligence. Now I use an Ultra Sonic cleaning machine (sort of home made, not a $4k one). With only distilled water it does great, but with distilled water and the Audio Disc cleaner it does an even better job. And for the best I have heard, I use the Audio Intelligence 3 step mentioned above after the ultra sonic clean.YMMV, but this is my 2 cents.Good listening, |
I have been buying records since 1970, and as was typical, used a Discwasher. In the early 1980s, I bought a used VPI, and converted it to the 16.5. Mostly, I have used distilled water with about 20% isopropanol, and a couple of drops of Kodak Photo-Flo, a mild detergent used when processing film. I spreads out well on the records, and there is occasionally enough vacuum to cause some bubbles as the fluid is sucked off by the (be still, my heart) velvet lips. I have never noted any residue. Then (not to open up another can of worms), I use LAST on each side. Since it bonds to the vinyl irreversibly, it sometimes can pick up dust that the machine didn't get the first time. Then, I can clean it again...I am not a fan of the MOFI fluids, if only because they don't really wet the record, seemingly just blobbing above the grooves due to its very high surface tension. There is absolutely no question that the ultrasonic cleaners work better (just ask your dentist), but they do come with a pretty steep toll if you want it automated; If you don't, you can probably buy a large enough one on ebay, and fabricate something to hold the records solidly while they spin in the water bath. Then, they have to dry, so the money you save is more than taken up in the time it takes to clean them. |
On my VPI 16.5 of 17 years I've settled on MoFi Super Record Wash with the MoFi brush. On used or soiled records I start with MoFi Super Deep Cleaner. The vinyl sparkles and the sound is enhanced. I had used Disc Doctor's Miracle Record Cleaner with a water rinse for years, though never noticed a Heightening of the sonics. Before that a home brew of water, alcohol and Photo-Flo, which I determined was not as good. |
mijostyn - The bit about heated PVC making HCL is the funniest part.The kinetics and mechanism of dehydrohalogenation of PVC is well documented in the scientific literature. I had the opportunity to study the surface chemistry of UV induced dehydrohalogenation of PVC many years ago using photoelectron spectroscopy. The dehydrohalogenation process can be induced thermally or via UV exposure and does produce HCl. That is one reason stabilizers are used in PVC. Many years ago people observed their Monster Speaker Cable turning green through the clear PVC jacket. This was due to dehydrohalogenation of the PVC jacket producing HCl which reacted with the copper conductor forming copper chloride. |
ljgerens Many years ago people observed their Monster Speaker Cable turning green through the clear PVC jacket. This was due to dehydrohalogenation of the PVC jacket producing HCl which reacted with the copper conductor forming copper chloride.W-o-w! I never knew that! I used the original Monster Cable speaker cable in a biamplified Infinity 2.5 speaker system back in the very early '80s, so I had a lot of the stuff. It was a great sounding system but that is exactly what happened to the cable - I'd never seen anything like it before or since. The green color actually creeped me out a little and I threw the cable in the garbage. |
Many years ago people observed their Monster Speaker Cable turning green through the clear PVC jacket. This was due to dehydrohalogenation of the PVC jacket producing HCl which reacted with the copper conductor forming copper chloride I was always told that the crusty green powder was caused by the oxidation of the copper in the wire. This was way before the days of oxygen free copper, (in audio cables anyway). |
ljgerens, thank you for the explanation.The copper turning green is due to oxidation. PVC like siding which is exposed continuously to high temps and UV light has stabilizers in it. The PVC used in records is exposed to high heat once for only a short period of time and gets hardly any UV exposure because it spends the vast majority of its time in its jacket. The lead in the carbon black acts as a stabilizer but other than that I can find no evidence anywhere that PVC used for the manufacture of records has anything in it but carbon black. I would love to see evidence to the contrary. |
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I used several. L’art du Son Keith Monks walker 4 steps active Enzymes AIVS (3 steps and n.6). I am back to l’Art du Son now with 2 minutes bathing. if the record is is not over dirty it is good enough for very serious cleaning. If very dirty you can do it twice. It smells good and sounds very good transparent and, more importantly, balanced without any part of the spectrums more prominent than another. I also have KLAudio. |
mijostyn - The copper turning green is due to oxidation.Copper oxide is not green. The copper +1 oxide (Cu2O) is red and the copper +2 oxide (CuO) is black. Copper turning green is due to the formation of copper chloride. If it turns a blue or aqua color it is due to the formation of copper sulfate. Yes all PVC has stabilizers to minimize degradation, even the PVC in LPs. They are not always 100% effective but do slow down the degradation process. I do not think you have to be too concerned with degradation of PVC in LPs unless you leave them siting out in sunlight for days or heat them to high temperatures. Most LPs are a copolymer of PVC and PVA and with the added stabilizers and carbon black as a filler, the degradation of PVC is minimized. |
barbapapa, are you kidding me? Look how PVC is made. If everyone here was so concerned about the environment we would all stop buying vinyl immediately and toss our turntables in the garbage. I'm more worried about what we will make our records out of once all the oil is gone:( The best way to keep your records clean is not to let them get dirty. I started collecting records when I was 13. I did not have my act together in terms of record care until I was 17 when I made a hinging dust cover for my TD 124. At about the same time I replaced the ADC Pritchard tonearm the table came with with an SME. I modified the ADC Pritchard by mounting an artist's brush head in the head shell.The idea came as a result of using a Stanton cartridge with the brush up front. Talking about skating force! It worked great except boy did it make static electricity. I got shocked every time I changed a record. So I wrapped the brush with fine copper wire almost down to the end and connected it to the green head shell wire which was connected to ground. I have been using a grounded record brush ever since. The older records had to be cleaned but remain noisy. All the later records have never been cleaned and are all as good as the day I bought them (except for the rare accident.) If you have dirty records I think the best way to clean them is an ultrasonic cleaner with distilled water. Unfortunately, a lot of pollutants inside a house are non polar molecules from cooking. Water as a polar solvent has a hard time dissolving these molecules without the help of Ultrasound so in every other type of cleaning machine you need something in the water that will dissolve them. I like isopropyl alcohol. It is a relatively weak solvent but it evaporates quickly and leaves absolutely no residue. With a little agitation like in a Spin Clean it works fine. If people want to spend their money on all that other magic stuff that is their prerogative. Me? The only time my records are exposed to the environment is the 30 seconds it takes to go the three feet from where the record is removed from it's rice paper sleeve to the turntable, needle and brush drop, Dust cover down. Then of course back again to the sleeve. https://www.sleevecityusa.com/Antistatic-Record-Cleaning-Arm-p/tac-01.htm |
I no longer play LPs, but when I did I used clean room gloves to handle my LPs. The worst thing to try to remove from an LP surface are the proteins, amino acids, lipids and salts from your skin contact. If you handle your LPs carefully with no skin contact than the best cleaning method that I found was deionized/distilled water and an ultrasonic bath. If your LPs have some fingerprints, Isopropyl alcohol can be used to clean them first followed by an ultrasonic bath in deionized/distilled water. As someone said earlier, all cleaning agents used on LPs leave a residue. It may not be visible to the naked eye but it is there. You want to try to minimize that residue. I mention deionized/distilled water as I found it to leave less residue than plain distilled water. For most people plain distilled water is fine. |
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I've been using L'Art Du Son for a while now. I'm on my 2nd bottle and a bottle lasts a while as it's concentrate you mix with distilled water. Before that I mostly used DIY alcohol based solutions. On my Okki Nokki, I have to spin 3 revolutions with now to vacuum when I only used 2 for DIY solution. The other issue I've noticed with L'Art Du Son is that the velvet pads on the arm don't seem to dry off as fast. With alcohol based solutions, the pads were dry after each record. With L'Art Du Son there seems to be a cumulative effect. If I clean about 5 records, the pads stay wet during the vacuuming process. Before that I don't really have a problem. What happens is the wet pads just push the fluid over the surface of the record instead of being sucked into the tube. It's not a deal breaker for me, but, it is an annoyance that I've come to accept. |
ljgerens ... I used clean room gloves to handle my LPs. The worst thing to try to remove from an LP surface are the proteins, amino acids, lipids and salts from your skin contact.That seems rather like overkill. It's possible to handle an LP without ever touching the playing surface by simply touching only the LP edge and the label. ... the best cleaning method that I found was deionized/distilled water and an ultrasonic bath.Same here. |
I have used the VPI 16.5 for 37 years now. Back in the 90s I used Torumat fluid with very good results, from Brooks Berdan, where I purchased my analog front end and cleaning machine. Then an acquaintance Brian made a formula which included drinking alcohol, ethanol. It was superb. He passed and since about 2005, I've used Record Doctor. Sometimes, cleaning the grooves results in a noisier LP due to uncovering gunk which has resulted in damaged grooves. Overall, I like the Record Doctor using two additional rinses using either RO or distilled water. I have 7,000 78s and Record Doctor is recommended for them. It apparently does not use any type of alcohol. I like the Kirmuss idea but don't trust the guy. MF said it can take 30 minutes per disc to make it absolutely pristine (including multiple passes through the machine and fungus/etc. hand brush removal). |
Right on cleeds. There is a method to handling records. As cleeds relates do not touch the playing surface. ljgerens you are right in regards to oils. They are very fugitive however if you wash your hands before handling the records the transfer of skin oils to the record is minimal if you are handling the record correctly. But if you like wearing clean room gloves and get them cheap why not. I have never worn clean room gloves and you will never find a finger print on any of my records. CuCL2 is brown. It absorbs moisture to form the dihydrate which is light blue. To form Malachite or Brochantite, both green, copper is fully oxidized then on exposure to atmospheric contaminants forms these compounds also termed patina. Chlorine is not involved. The only references I can find in regard to PVC releasing HCL relate this to the PVC being burned like in a house fire. |
Yes if the copper chloride is perfectly dry it is a yellow-brown color but in the presence of moisture it easily forms the dihydrate which is a green color. This is what you typically see due to moisture in the atmosphere. Copper chloride is always hydrated to some extent on exposure to atmosphere and forms green crystals. Unstabilized PVC undergoes dehydrohalogenation very readily on exposure to UV or heat. The dehydrohalogenation process releases HCl. I studied this extensively using Photoelectron Spectroscopy as I stated before. The added stabilizers slow down the process but do not completely eliminate it. The dehydrohalogenation processs takes place at the surface initially (the upper 5 to 10 nanometers) and slowly works its way into the bulk. This initial process which occurs within minutes of UV exposure can only be detected with a surface analysis technique like Photoelectron Spectroscopy or Static Secondary Ion Mass Spectrometry. As far as heat, the surface dehydrohalogenation begins to occur at temperatures of 70 to 90 degrees C (160 to 190 F). The combination of UV and elevated temperatures (greater than 100 degrees F) speeds up the process significantly. |
Several people have written about the importance of rinsing, if you use a surfactant. I agree. I use a commercial US cleaner. It's better and cheaper than many audiophile alternatives. I also use lab grade surfactant for a whole bunch of reasons, like it actually is what the documentation says it is. VersaClean from Fisher Scientific, especially formulated for plastics. |
back in the 1990s myles astor did a survey of rcf's for sounds like magazine. he examined the chemistry behind the formulations and conducted listening tests. the top fluid was vpi, followed by nitty gritty purifier 2. you can't go wrong with any of the name fluids like nitty gritty, vpi, mofi, disc doctor etc. |
Thanx for the explanation ljergens. Obviously I was wrong. I believe during the stamping process PVC temperatures reach 300 F. Carbon Black is obviously added to all black records and I have read that it contains lead which acts as a stabilizer.Medical PVC has the phthalate DEHP in it which has been studies intensively for side effects in animals. I believe phthalates are the most common plasticizers but I can not find any mention of them being added to PVC for records. The PVC for records comes in bags of pellets that are premixed with carbon black and whatever else is in there. I am trying to find out who supplies the pellets to firm up the list of compounds added to the PVC and their concentrations. The next question is will Isopropyl alcohol damage records. I believe this is a myth. I have an old record sitting in a tub of 91% isopropyl alcohol now. It has been in it for 3 days. Very creative Terry9. At least you know what is in there unlike all the audiophile stuff. |
Here is an interesting and non committed article I found. I love the bit about isopropyl alcohol evaporating too fast. That is why we use it in solution with distilled water. You can adjust the vapor pressure by adjusting the concentration of the alcohol. For cleaning car windows I use 75% isopropyl in distilled water. It cleans great and dries fast. For records I use 25% isopropyl in distilled water. It dries a bit slower. There is no residue in medical grade alcohol and there should not be any in distilled water. I filled a sparkling clean wine glass with the 25% mixture and let it evaporate. The glass was just as clean afterwards so there is no visible residue. |
For used records that I purchase, I use running warm water, a few drops of dish soap, and a nylon bristle paint brush. I hold the record at an angle under the water when wetting / rinsing it, as to not purposefully get the label wet (if I do get it wet, I quickly dry it off). I use the brush to work the water / soap into the groove, brushing in a circular motion in the direction of the grooves. Once I'm finished washing / rinsing, I used compressed air to blow out / off any residual water. Works well. For incidental record cleaning I use a 75% / 25% mixture of IPA and distilled water in a spray bottle. I keep 2 premium car polishing cloths in a zip lock bag, I use these cloths to lay the record down onto and to wipe the record down. I have also tried disposable eye-glass cleaning wipes. They are sold by the box, and contain individually sealed / moistened wipes (contents differ by manufacturer, but most of them are a Isopropyl Alcohol / water mixture). I typically wipe a single record and dispose of it. So many opinions and individual techniques out there, these are the ones that I feel have worked best for me over time, with no noticeable negative effects to my vinyl. |
mijostyn
Obviously I was wrong ... Carbon Black is obviously added to all black records and I have read that it contains lead which acts as a stabilizer ...You really need to start relying on facts rather than speculation, because this claim is also completely mistaken. MFSL's "SuperVinyl" uses a carbonless die, for example, and it's likely MFSL is not the only one doing this. |
Whoops! I forgot to add the link in my last comment. Here it is https://www.yoursoundmatters.com/is-it-safe-to-clean-vinyl-records-with-alcohol/ I just ordered a bottle of Triton X , 99% isopropyl alcohol and benzalkonium chloride. I am going to experiment with a 10% alcohol solution and an undetermined quantity of Triton X and benzalkonium chloride. I'll probably start with 0.5% Triton and 0.1% benzalkonium chloride. The Triton is a cationic detergent and surfactant. The benzalkonium chloride kills fungus and is supposed to lubricate the groove. The general consensus is that up to 10% alcohol is perfectly safe. One article related that over 60% is certainly dangerous. My usual mix was 25%. |
