Not wanting to start a debate and you can obviously use whichever technique you wish, but everything I have read says shield/drain is connected to source end, or as I say, sending end. Also, I have looked at many cables from different manufacturers that use this and then will have the directional arrows on the cable. The arrow has always pointed toward the unconnected end.
The problem with connecting the shield to the source end is that if a source has no ground connection, you will end up with an ungrounded shield. Many turntables and tonearms are like that, especially vintage ones - think two-prong plugs.
Grannyring commented a little while back. He makes cables under the name “Acoustic BBQ” right here on Audiogon.
I bucked up and spent more than anticipated, but I am convinced they are the best setup for the money, and he didn’t have to sell me at all. I spend several hours researching with your help.
I purchased 4 IC cables with the following: 1. 2ft 16awg Duelund wire with impregnated oil. 16awg for a bit more meat than 20awg. 2. Cardas GSMO RCA connectors 3. WBT Silver Solder 3. Not shielded as to not close the sound. The risk of interference is less than the negative effect that shielding creates. Plus, worst case scenario it can always be added. 4. Jacket over twisted wires 5. Shrink wrap for support.
The problem with connecting the shield to the source end is that if a source has no ground connection, you will end up with an ungrounded shield.
Almost all components today have a separate ground. If not, you can always run a wire from the chassis to ground.
If you always ground at the source end, it’s easy to maintain star grounding. That helps avoid noise and hum by keeping all grounds at the same potential.
Many turntables and tonearms are like that, especially vintage ones - think two-prong plugs.
The typical pickup arm/phono cartridge assembly has a separate ground wire - it’s a balanced circuit with a separate ground intended to be connected to the preamplifier. Again, that helps maintain star grounding.
"Almost all components today have a separate ground. If not, you can always run a wire from the chassis to ground."
Agreed. But for those which do not ...
"If you always ground at the source end, it’s easy to maintain star grounding. That helps avoid noise and hum by keeping all grounds at the same potential."
A star ground is important if ground is used as a circuit element, such as a signal return. A shield attached at one end is not part of the circuit, and cannot form a ground loop, or hum. Also, the term 'source tend' seems ambiguous to me - is it the turntable or the preamp?
"The typical pickup arm/phono cartridge assembly has a separate ground wire - it’s a balanced circuit with a separate ground intended to be connected to the preamplifier. Again, that helps maintain star grounding."
As noted, star grounding is unimportant in this case. The rest, I agree with - but vintage gear may vary.
Nice discussing with you Cleeds, helps me to clarify my thinking.
Craig, I'm sure that you will be pleased with the result. My first suggestion was predicated on the possibility that you might be in a radio-rich environment. Since it seems that you are not, unshielded may be a better solution.
If these work out, that is, no obvious radio frequency interference, you should never need to upgrade.
A star ground is important if ground is used as a
circuit element, such as a signal return. A shield attached at one end
is not part of the circuit, and cannot form a ground loop, or hum.
This is completely mistaken - a shield attached at only one end most certainly can either form a ground loop and contribute to hum and noise, or help alleviate hum and noise. That's exactly the purpose of using such a shielded cable, but of course it requires proper orientation of the shield to be effective. Remember that the term "ground loop" is really a bit of a misnomer; we can say a "ground loop" is formed whenever two or more grounds are at different potentials.
Also,
the term 'source tend' seems ambiguous to me - is it the turntable or
the preamp?
It's the preamplifier. What would be the purpose of running all the grounds through the pickup arm and cartridge?
As noted, star grounding is unimportant in this case.
Your connection scheme may work in your system, but I know for sure it wouldn't work in mine. I can't see any value in using an amplifier - as opposed to the preamplifier - as the common ground connection.
"Your connection scheme may work in your system, but I know for sure it wouldn’t work in mine. I can’t see any value in using an amplifier - as opposed to the preamplifier - as the common ground connection."
+1 cleeds
Many years ago when amps and preamps began using 3 prong AC cords, it was recommended that if there was a hum in the system, then use a cheater plug on the amp. I actually heard this at a CES show from a highly respected amp designer.
"Also, the term ’source tend’ seems ambiguous to me"
terry9
That’s why I tend to say sending end, no confusion. If you think sending end is not the correct way to connect shield/drain, then you should notify all the cable manufacturers that’s been doing it wrong, some for ~35 years.
"we can say a "ground loop" is formed whenever two or more grounds are at different potentials"
I don't think so. From Wiki, "A ground loop is caused by the interconnection of electrical equipment that results in there being multiple paths to ground, so a closed conductive loop is formed."
Closed.
Two components with ground pins connected to different grounds, whose grounds are electrically connected e.g. with a shield, forming a loop. Or, a line inside a balanced cable connecting the grounds of two pieces of equipment, plus a shield also connecting same, forming a closed conductive loop.
"What would be the purpose of running all the grounds through the pickup arm and cartridge?"
Exactly my point.
@tls49
I think that this addresses your concerns as well.
Now let's return control of this thread to the OP, don't you think?
And no, you have not addressed my concerns. It’s clear your opinion is different and you are certainly entitled to it. Since my thinking is in line with all the cable manufacturers, nothing you say can change it. It’s just too hard to believe that they have been making cables wrong for so many years.
"we can say a "ground loop" is formed whenever two or more grounds are at different potentials"
I don’t think so. From Wiki, "A ground loop is caused by the interconnection of electrical equipment that results in there being multiple paths to ground, so a closed conductive loop is formed."
You don’t seem to understand what a ground loop actually is, and neither do you seem willing to understand it. So it’s no wonder that you’re confused about how to cure or prevent the problem.
The link provided by @tls49 provides a fairly succinct explanation of what a ground loop is.
I think it’s funny how people keep popping in and asking if this thread is serious. Although I didn’t know what I was talking about when I started the thread, I have learned that if you make them or have them made, you don’t have to spend a million dollars and CAN actually have nice ICs for $25.
Had i I not had them made for me by Granny ring, I’m sure I could have purchased some Belden wire, silver laced solder, and some $2 switchcraft 3502aau rca connectors for my budget of $25 and been just fine.
After knowing what I know now, it makes me think the guys asking if this thread is serious are the stupid ones, because they must be overpaying. Lol
I bought good interconnects for about $25 . Listening now and it sounds wonderful. The only thing that doesn't make sense to me is unshielded I thought the more shielding the better, shows what I know lol.
Yeah who would have thought that shielding closed the sound but I guess it makes sense now. Like I said, I’ll try it without shielding, and add it if I need to do it.
I literally knew nothing when I started. This was all very interesting and I’m glad the guys in here stuck with me until I understood.
My set up is in my living room close to my TV and cable box so I would use shielded. Belden LC-1 is what I would have recommended but only Blue Jeans sells that cable and you didn't want them.
@craigert, I think the little time you put in doing your research has paid off really well. So good in fact you have also helped you fellow 'audiophiles'. @dopogue is using Duelund 20g interconnects over his highly regarded clear day cable interconnects. Now that says a lot. Please see below link and thanks for posting. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cable-burn-in/by_member?username=dopogue
I would go with the larger 16 gauge also. I have since got back in touch with @dopogue and he has put his clear day interconnects back on in his system and said because the clear days interconnects were more ’musical’ than the Duelunds. And that is NOT to say the Duelunds are bad in any way.
I did reach out to the grannyring guy you bought yours from and he suggested I look elsewhere for purchasing.
So if anybody out there in agonland has a set of clear day interconnects, I need one more set/pair to complete what I need with the clear day double shotguns speaker wire I bought from the same seller of the clear day interconnects here on agon. And the price of the clear day cable interconnects cost about exactly the same as the
grannyring
Duelund interconnects.
Cables are system and sound preference dependent. The builder of Clear Day cables is a great guy, really great guy. Owned several of his cables over the years. Just too thin sounding and a tad bright for me. This is based on my gear and my preference for full bodied sound with weight and bloom. However, I have found all pure silver cables to sound this way over the years in my various rigs. The Duelund cable will sound better with nice Cardas RCAs, 16 gauge wire and careful building technique. Since there is no Duelund brand cable we can all use as a standard or base it is impossible to assume the comments on one Duelund build pertain to all.
Inexpensive ICs that seem to be well made: Esoteric U.S.A. found on E-bay. Some length hard to fine. I have used 1 Meter pairs (~$12) in modest systems.
This has been a great thread and I have learned alot. Craig thanks for the great question. Not recommending a particular IC I may suggest that after your ICs settle in and you are comfortable with them you may consider purchasing another set recommended in this thread. Although I use clear day as my primary IC I swap in another of my other three sets for a change, s imilar to when I swap out tubes for a change. Its fun and, for me, for a different sound once in a while. But most important I hope you enjoy your new purchase, youve done your homework well. Dave
Are you looking for rca or XLR? if looking for rca, look at the aduioquest golden gate at 70 a pair for 1M retail, most stores will offer a discount. Only problem with them are they are only done as a pair not single. Or even the big sur at 109 a pair retail. They use A better copper same copper as the higher end 400 dollar each cables. I had golden gate on my system and upgraded to water, and only noticed a slight difference in sound quality. Every system has a preference for a certain cable. I tried Kimber, cardas and even transparent and I liked the sound of AQ min my system better. Hope that helps.
I’m curious of what you went with? I have the Belden 8402 w/Switchcraft RCAs between my amp and preamp and am thinking about getting another pair to connect my Node 2 (analog). I’m eyeballing that guy in Greece too. I also have an older pair of Kimber Silver Streaks that are lost in my man cave that I could dig up.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
