In January, I plan to acquire my first standalone DAC and am wondering what to try for footers. I currently have original Stillpoints cones under the CDP which will act as transport and a Symposium shelf under my integrated. These work well.
In the past, I've tried and been disappointed by Stillpoints Ultra SS and Ultra Minis, brass footers, Cardas myrtle blocks and Vibropods. Are there any products that work particularly well under DACs ? ? ? ?
I have yet to decide whether DAC will sit atop transport or on its own shelf, so I'd appreciate suggestions for both scenarios, please.
My Audiogon friend purchased three Finite Elements Cerabase Slimline Precision Audio Footers from Aaudio Imports at RMAF for his Aurender N10, really liked them and recommended I purchase the Cerabase Slimline Precsion Audio Footers for my Aurender N10 Music Server.
I researched the Cerabase Slimline Precision Audio Footers, and several other brands (Grand Prix Apex, Stillpoints), and then contacted Brian at Aaudio Imports for additional information. I asked him several questions and he was very consultative and helpful.
I installed 4 of these footers and noticed my music did sound slightly clearer and with less noise. I still think it is "voodoo magic" but my friend says “No magic, it is just solid physics. The Ceraballs drains any unwanted vibrations from inside the unit and cancel any external vibrations from entering into unit”. Their web site states “The Cera technology is based on direct coupling for effective transfer of sound interfering resonance. fast resonance transfer is provided by extreme hard high-tech ceramic balls. Combined with precision machined materials like stainless steel or aluminum, the optimum balance between damping and deflection is achieved. The resulting vacuum effect draws off unwanted resonance directly where it evolves".
I placed 4 footers next to the standard feet on my Aurender N10. Brian said “4 footers should be better since you have more isolation”. I know everyone's situation is different but I do recommend you check out the Finite Elements Cerabase Slimline Precision Audio Footers for fine tuning your audio system. In general, focus and solidity of image were improved.
Herbie’s Audio Lab Tenderfeet. There may be other products out there that work even better (and cost more), but they are an outstanding value for the money.
I have found great results from Marigo Mystery feet under all my DCS components. They are expensive but Ron has options which combine some of his top end feet with cheaper alternatives to bring the price down. Adding the feet seems to make the music flow more easily and aids inner detail. I also found that adding a Shakti Stone over the transformer on each component added as well
You might try out some DIY roller blocks. I'm using them between DAC and wood plinth. Between plinth and equipment console shelf, am using 3 cork & rubber Isol-Pads.
When you say, you have tried Vibrapods, do mean the soft rubber Vibrapod footers? The Vibrapod Cones have seemed more effective to me (even used alone) than the footers.
Ceramic plates are too flat. The component will slide right off the roller bearings. Besides plates won’t provide rotational Isolation Before anyone hurts himself buy the real thing. Saves a lot of hand wringing and tears.
I saw a demo of them a couple months ago. I just received my IsoAcoustics GAIA I with spikes to replace my stock spikes and ISO-PUCKS. The ISO-PUCKS will go under my DAC and music server. They will be replacing Stillpoint Ultra Minis. I will post my thoughts in a couple of days.
Today I tried four ISO PUCKs under my PS Audio PWT Transport. Quite amazing really. My system is isolated with Daedalus Isolation Devices (DiD’s) and Herbies Tinderfoot. I’ve also tried stillpoints a few years ago and didn’t like them under anything. Also have some sets of Cera Balls from like 5 years ago or so. Don’t like them for the main system either... But along with the DiDs, these ISO PUCKs are very good!
Thanks. I will check out the ISO pucks and DiD's. . . I wory that "Hard ceramic balls coupled with stainless steel or aluminum" is a recipe for fatiguing highs, but of course, there's no way to know except through trial and error. I did try Herbies a long time ago-- don't remember what I put them under, but I do recall the resulting tone being veiled.
Speaking of Barry Diament, in his discussion on roller bearings, he includes ideas and suggestions on how to make DIY versions. He originally used marbles in wooden egg holders (whatever they are!), and encouraged by the positive results he heard with them (in his audiophile recording studio monitor system, which includes Magneplanar MG3.7's) had some aluminum cups made for him by a local machinist.
In his discussion, Barry explains that the way the bearing works is when confronted by vibrations, the ball bearing microscopically moves within the cup. In addition to providing more stability than a flat surface, the bowl shape of the cup forces the ball bearing to "climb" up the slope of the cup, thereby disposing of the energy of the vibrations as heat. That climb maximizes the effectiveness of the roller bearing, and is therefore preferable to a flat surface, such as a plate.
If one prefers to make his own, a cheap substitute for machined aluminum cups are the concave drawer pulls sold at Lowes, Home Depot, etc. Only a coupla bucks each, they can be screwed onto a slab of plywood, MDF, or acrylic, in a trio facing up. Place a small (3/8"-1/2") ball bearing in each, and a hard, smooth piece of something (floor tiles, etc.) on top of them, and you have really effective lateral isolation for a pittance.
For those willing to pay a little more, the best value roller bearings of which I am aware are those offered by Ingress Engineering in Canada. The cheapest, original model is the equal of the excellent Symposium Acoustics Roller Block Jr,, at half their price. Two other models are actually superior to even the higher-priced SA's, machined from higher-grade Alcoa aluminum in a more optimally-shaped (shallower slope) bowl.
The reason the curved surface is preferred is because the roller bearing will then be capable of isolating the component in two additional rotational directions - ROCK and ROLL. I.e., rotation around the 2 non vertical axes. Obviously, the curved surface also prevents the component from “wandering.” Isolation can be defined as the *ease of motion* in a particular direction. Either curved or flat surfaces provide isolation in the twist direction as well as the horizontal plane. The TWIST direction is the rotational direction around the vertical axis. The only one that’s missing is vertical. That’s where the springs come in. The reason ALL six directions of motion are important is because the Earth surface moves like a carpet being shaken, like a wave. So the entire house is shaking in all 6 directions! This is not rocket science, folks! 🚀
Four fried eggs sunnyside up - just ensure not to break the yolks and that the DAC rests on the yolk. Organic grain fed is the smoothest but the type with Omega 3 can be more revealing. Experiment with cooking time until you fine tune the sound. Cheaper then playing with fuses. SR are conducting NASA style research on these latest techniques and rumor is that 4 boiled eggs (peeled) works even better due to the different damping properties of the white and the yolk. Of course it is the shape of the egg that is critical too and that is what is being patented.
I don't understand! Aren't DACs fully solid state components with no moving parts? Why bother with isolation? Are there any scientific reason behind the need for this? curious...
I really like the Stillpoints Ultra SS under my PS Direct Stream Dac. It is rare to find them used at a good price. So people must like them and keep them. Perhaps it was the equipment that you used them with. Make sure the cones are facing up and are not screwed too tight.
"Are there any scientific reason behind the need for this?"
I have the same question. I get the RFI, EMI, etc., isolation but vibration control, especially for components with no built in large transformers makes little sense to me.
scientific (mechanistic) reasons behind use of these for a DAC could include tribo-electric effects, or piezo-electric effects on any internal crystals in the DAC
Google will be helpful - both are known mechanism, tho the magnitude of such effects remain to be demonstrated as affecting SQ
I suggested the dollhouse items as they cost me $6 -so worth a test.
Confirmation bias needs to be excluded from your listening tests, so have a friend switch from the ball bearing setup and screen off the DAC so you can't see. Do it 10 times and see how many times you get it right. Do it 20 times and then do a simple t-test on the results.
BTW, an exasperated wife or gf would LOVE to help with this experiment esp. if there is a chance of proving that your incessant fiddling with the HiFi system is worthless.
That’s part of the whole blind test scam. Nobody can pass a blind test 10 times in a row. Give me a break! That’s the beauty of it. That’s why The Amazing Randi never had to pay out a million dollars for any test, ever, not even the blind tests of controversial audiophile thingamabobs like the Intelligent Chip. No one can pass a blind tests 10 times without making a mistake - especially when the test is controlled by The Amazing Randi and his staff of pseudo skeptics. Hel-loo! 😛
Controlled blind tests are analogous to the drowning chair used to determine if a woman was a witch in Salem, Massachusetts. If she drowned she wasn’t a witch. A real witch would have prevented her own death. Duh!
Of course blind tests work. Of course independently verified instrument measurements of performance work. Only scam artists and conmen would claim that independent blind testing doesn’t work and place anecdotal listener experience on a pedestal as the only measure of true performance. And that is simply because everything they sell is snake oil and cannot be measured or heard except by deluded wishful thinkers (who are told what to expect to hear and know what they are listening to in advance)
Someone hasn’t been paying attention. The reason blind tests don’t mean anything WHEN THE RESULTS ARE NEGATIVE is because negative results can result from mistakes by the test conductor, mistakes in the system used for the test, and other reasons. POSITIVE RESULTS, on the other hand, tend to support the hypothesis under test, even if there were mistakes or errors in the test. You can ignore a single blind test if the results are negative. Follow? The other part of the puzzle is that when the differences are subtle or small it can be quite difficult if not impossible to correctly identify the better device. That’s the scam that Randy was running. And that you apparently go along with.
no wonder you 're disappointed - you're hearing digital. Spend as much as you can on an analog front end and you 'll be listening to all the music you've been missing.
I’ll never go back to analog. IMO Digital has surpassed the once great art form. Now that vinyl is cut from digital what is the point of playback on media that has so many limitations.
I’ll never go back to analog. IMO Digital has surpassed the once great art form. Now that vinyl is cut from digital what is the point of playback on media that has so many limitations.
+1
And, unless the analog is mucho bucks reel-to-reel (where each tape holds only 30 minutes of music and is larger than a western digital hard drive that holds 4000 hours of lossless music) I too don't see (or hear) the point. Not to mention other analog limitations like dynamic range.
The purpose of a footer is to allow vibrations in a piece of equipment to disperse rather than remain, causing microphonics or possibly other kinds of distortion. Footers, both metal or sorbothane -type will do some good but still leave the equipment abuzz with vibrations before they can be damped by sorb or drained out by metal footers. The most effective techniques I have found are sorbothane pieces, glued inside the unit, or if you don’t like opening it up, outside, near the transformer, which is the only source of vibration. I personally prefer dacs with external power supplies to get around electronic and mechanical issues. As regards sorb, I have been working on this for a few years now https://www.head-fi.org/threads/damping-mechanical-energy-distortion-of-stax-and-other-phones-with-s... mostly on damping headphones and speakers. So far, what I have found works best is small pieces (less than an inch in any dimension) of dense (70 duro) sorb, glued with 3M self stick or Lord’s expensive adhesive. Use the thickest sorb you can get, self-stick is only available up to 1/4 inch. Cover the open side with electrical tape, I currently use 4, layers. This creates "constrained damping," which makes the sorb much more effective. CD players and turntables need this treatment far more than dacs. Cost? Multiples of $10.00 and far more effective than expensive footers, tables, etc. Far out? Not really, there is a significant move to this type of technology. Sennheiser has been doing it for years with their HD800, a fact many users are unaware of because of Senn’s cryptic description (they put damping material in the headband btw) I would imagine they are also doing this in their TOL electrostatics. Grado has a similar approach using some proprietary polycarbonate in their construction, see B&W, and Audioquest... I recently Googled "constrained damping" and came across several speaker companies and SME adding this to their megabuck turntable. I think this field is ready to blow wide open and in a good way since the technology is cheap.
Highly recommend you contact Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade. He is very knowledge and gives good advice. I am picking up vibration control speaker stands on Monday. I heard them work under both tube amplifiers and electrostatic speakers of a friend of mine.
I have a set of Mapleshade Iso feet blocks. I think that's what they're called. The rubber thingys with cork in between them. I tried them under my Dac, and noticed no improvement what so ever.
I have tried verious footers over the years and my next set will be the Pitch Perfect Sound footers at a very reasonable cost no less especially considering the ones ( actually several now) selling for $500-$800 plus dollars each.
I have been reading the thread which discusses these footers and its a very informative high end audio site.
The effectiveness of cones in terms of SQ is primarily a function of the hardness of the material. That is why DH (Diamond Hardness) Cones sound better than brass, carbon fiber, aluminum, even better than hardened steel cones, which are all considerably lower on the Moh scale of hardness than the Space Age ceramic DH Cones. Having said that, the effectiveness of cones is also a function of the shape of the cone. Which is why Super DH Cones sound noticeably better than Jumbo DH Cones. Both are essentially the same size and weight, but the Supers have a more ballistic shape. 🚀 Is it cheating to cryogenically treat the cones? You decide. Yes, you want to drain vibration from component but you also want to decouple the component from seismic vibration. So BOTH techniques are required for best results.
Sorbothane seems like SUCH a good idea. But sounds pretty terrible, usually. Of course that’s just my opinion. If someone gets good results with Sorbothane or say lead, more power to them! There might be somewhere Sorbothane sounds good but I never found one. In fact I believe Sorbothane is the Poster Child for Expectation Bias. Like the metal lead. It’s a case of it looks like a duck, it acts like a duck, but it’s not a duck. Not all Viscoelastic materials are created equal. The trick is to find a good one and a place that works, that doesn’t choke the sound and make it weird. For headphones and such Marigo VTS Dots (constrained layer dampers) are the cat’s meow. And they’ve been around almost as long as chunky peanut butter. For transformers, capacitors and printed circuit boards, etc. I use Marigo VTS Dots and or cork and constrained layer dampers. Disclaimer - I sell a constrained layer damper and pure natural cork for such purposes. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the particular viscoelastic material I use in my product.
"scientific (mechanistic) reasons behind use of these for a DAC could include tribo-electric effects, or piezo-electric effects on any internal crystals in the DAC"
Aren't the crystals in DACs operate in MHZ/GHZ range? Isolation from mechanical vibrations would mean nothing to them. I think the humidity/temperature/athmospheric pressure in your listening room would make more difference in the perceived sound than mechanical isolation of DAC. Just IMHO.
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