Best cheapo Cartridge

Dear @lohanimal  : Yes, cantilever is only one part of the cartridge.

This is an example of cartridges using the 103 motor:

https://audiofederation.com/dealership/prices/magic-diamond/

and that model is not its top of the line but is around 5K dollars.

R.

@rauliruegas when you speak of the top cartridges I agree with what you say - that said the designer/maker tends to consider the whole cartridge package - not just one part in isolation.

Out of interest - which carts do you know use a dl03 motor?

Dear @parrotbee  : That ws the Shelter Hrmony but the top 9000 comes with boron cantilever.

Normally top cartridges from almost all the cartridge manufacturer models comes with either boron or diamond.

R.

@rauliruegas 
I knew I wasn't seeing things when you wrote:
'From some years now exist several truly expensive LOMC cartridges ( over 5K-6K prices. ) that use the DL 103 cartridge motor with different build materials in the body, cantilever build materials, stylus shapes and kind of wire in the coils but the " motor " is the one by Denon'

On another note too many people get fixated with boron cantilevers, having no regard to other elements. Boron is much stiffer than aluminium - so the suspension of the cartridge gets altered with a change of material. It's usually the overall effect you should look at. I know that aluminium is not a fashionable material for cantilevers, but i'me sure that there's either a Zyx or Shelter which has an aluminium cantilever on the more expensive model than the cheaper one. I bet Raulrigas will know the model.

Part of me feels like getting a few 103's to do arm/turntable comparisons - that said 103's do like a heavy arm... that's a whole other thread...

Dear @parrotbee  : You are rigth. From some years now exist several truly expensive LOMC cartridges ( over 5K-6K prices. ) that use the DL 103 cartridge motor with different build materials in the body, cantilever build materials, stylus shapes and kind of wire in the coils but the " motor " is the one by Denon.

As I said I still have the venerable 103 and between other of its brothers the 103D that's good performer and competitive with today higher price cartridges.

@vpi  move with the 103M was and is really worth to do it and he knows by the rewardings he is achieving in quality level performance.

I own and owned several Denon audio items: TT, tonearms, cartridges, electronics, etc, etc, and never found out any Denon audio item where I can say: that is a bad item, never.

Now, I have more than " curiosity " about the 103M.

R.

I spoke to an excellent cartridge re-tipper and he explained that the DL103 is very good for two main reasons:

1. consistently well made
2. economies of scale production

You will find that each one comes with a readout - and you will find the left and right channel exceptionally well balanced - better than many more expensive cartridges.

the only thing holding it back is apparently a rubbish stylus.

That said, apparently, the market for a replacement body is a waste of time. 

Denon DL 103 M arrived back from Needle Clinic with boron cantilever and micro ridge stylus.  I'm very pleased with it. I'd say it competes with MC cartridges in the $2000 + range. My total investment $650.  

At this price (or very close) there are many decent original MC cartridges available with Boron Cantilever and MicroRidge diamond. What's the point to invest in Denon 103 refurbishing? I just don't understand it, sorry.   

Dear @vpi  : Good and for what you said Needle Clinic made a good job.

In the other side 650.00 for that kind of quality levels is really good and almost a bargain.

Enjoy it !

R.

Hello @rauliruegas ,
My Denon DL 103 M arrived back from Needle Clinic with boron cantilever and micro ridge stylus.  Very smooth without being being too sweet.  Nice extension on the top and bottom.  Lots of heft in lower midrange/upper bass.  I'm very pleased with it.  I'd say it competes with MC cartridges in the $2000 + range.  My total investment $650.  Don't know if this qualifies as "cheapo" but in my experience you would have to spend at about three times that to find a MC its equal.

Dear @vpi  : Really low output and similar to its very top brother DL 1000A, I owned this one. My latest model was the DS1.

Good luck with the re-ttiped sample.

R.

@rauliruegas,@rauliruegas,  I just sent my 103 M off to Andy Kim at Needle Clinic for an upgrade.  I'll let you know how it sounds when it comes back.  The 103 M is a very low output MC at .12 mv.   That said, running it through a Herron VTPH 2a into my CAT SL-1 gives me more than enough gain.  
Cheers,
H

Dear @vpi  : My first LOMC cartridge was the 103 that I still have. In those old times Denons puts in the market several versions of the 103 like the one you named, some only for the japanese market, that unfortunatelly I never had the opportunity to listen it.

I have not an opinion on that specific model.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

 I have also found the Pickering XSV 3000 to an outstanding cartridge.

this is true, also Stanton 881s or higher models. 
don't have my XSV-3000 cartridge anymore, but still have a NOS (sealed) original Stereohedron stylus for this model . 

@rauliruegas  I'm wondering if in your experience with many, many cartridges you have auditioned the Denon 103 M.  As I am sure you know the M is quite different from all the other 103's.  i picked mine up for $250 and, while it is not up to my far more expensive mc cartridges, for the price it is very nice.

iopscrl

I agree.  I still have a Shure V15III.  I have also found the Pickering XSV 3000 to an outstanding cartridge.  So many to choose from.  

N.  

Shure V15-111 with a Jico stylus

Empire EDR .9

Both are outstanding MM cartridges that are easy found md relatively inexpensive.   

Sonics are wonderful- quiet backgrounds, deep bass, clean midrange and extended HF response.   Both require low mass arms to perform at their best.   

Sumiko moonstone mm cartridge $299
Audio technica at f7 mc cartridge $250

I'll be grabbing both, just because I can lol...but seriously, both well reviewed and pretty cheap for what you get. 
Fremer loved the sumiko and what hifi gave the AT 4 out of 5 stars...

I have an old moving coil Denon 103, it’s a little dark for an MC, but the midrange is killer. My other favorite is the Nagaoka MP-11 Boron, which to me sounds almost exactly like the Denon.

Maybe for certain genre of music, or maybe in a horn system ... 
103 conical is definitely not my type of sound, not for everyone

Personally, I prefer the conical stylus from the MP-10 for my vintage jazz Micro-groove LPs....     Because to me the conical stylus sounds better ... 

It explains a lot, different preferences, indeed

Nagaoka has built almost the exact same line of cartridges for over forty years.  Only  subtle changes have been made.  So clearly, they must be doing something right, as they are still enjoyed by many.

I believe Nagaoka / Jeweltone MP-50 or MP-500 with Boron cantilever and some nice stylus profile are good MM, not sure how many people are using them with conical tip over its LineContact. 

Dear @normansizemore  : "  So clearly, they must be doing something right, as they are still enjoyed by many. "

you are rigth on your common sense statement and I gree too because I owned and I think still own at least one Nagaoka cartridge but some people like to talk mybe by ignorance or  personal " agenda ": who knows.

R.

#Nagaoka4Lyfe

Chakster,

Because to me the conical stylus sounds better, that’s why.  But that’s just what I like.  Probably why I’m such a big fan of the Denon 103 and the Yamaha MC-11.  
 Nagaoka cartridges are overrated?  Hmmm.  Never heard that before.  What exactly is that based on?  The fact that you don’t like them?

For me, (which is what is important) I find them some of the finest sounding cartridges I’ve ever heard, with absolutely no listening fatigue, which is why I still use them.  

Nagaoka has built almost the exact same line of cartridges for over forty years.  Only  subtle changes have been made.  So clearly, they must be doing something right, as they are still enjoyed by many.

N.

  

Personally, I prefer the conical stylus from the MP-10 for my vintage jazz Micro-groove LPs.

Why?
I always prefer MicroRidge or LineContact for my vintage LPs.
Nagaoka cartridges are overrated, there are much better carts from the same era.

P.S. for the fans of conical tip there are Denon DL-107 MM    

Current production of the Nagaoka MP-200,300, & 500 all have boron cantilevers.

Chakster,

Someone mentioned that the 150 or 200 series has the Boron cantilever. This will fit any MP cartridge except the 500. 

Personally, I prefer the conical stylus from the MP-10 for my vintage jazz Micro-groove LPs. 

I dont think there is much if any difference between the cartridge bodies. Just the stylus type and cut along with variations to the cantilever.  This cartridge is super smooth, especially the highs. 
Its not expected at this price point which is why it was so popular years ago. 

Best
Norman

Norman, thanks. Now i see this version, interesting, never seen before, wow.  Another reason why vintage is better, new versions with 3 digits number does not have Boron version for lower models. 

Chakster

Google “Nakaogka MP-11 Boron”.
This was a step up from the standard MP-11.  The cartridge body is Black and says BORON in gold letters on the front and sides. 

The stylus also says MP-11 Boron,
so I am pretty certain that Nagaoka made one. 

Email me atn@normansizemore.com  and I will send you photos. 

Norman

@normansizemore 

Nagaoka MP-11 does not have a Boron cantilever, it's the cheapest Nagaoka in MP series, the cantilever is aluminum, read more about this model: https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/nagaoka_mp11_e.html

Vintage MP-50 has Boron cantilever, it was thr top model back then. 

I have an old moving coil Denon 103, it’s a little dark for an MC, but the midrange is killer.

My other favorite is the Nagaoka MP-11 Boron, which to me sounds almost exactly like the Denon.  The MP-11 is MM.   I’m not sure they make it any longer however.

Everything Audio Technica makes sounds wonderful.  

N.

Dear @bpoletti  The only cartridge with cactus cantilever I listened was the Hyperion and not in my system.. It sounds very good but I have not really to much experience with and less with  cactus cantilever items.

R.

Raul, why/how do you feel that MM cartridges categorically cannot equal or outperform MC cartridges?

Thanks Raul, that is what I believe as well.  I was hoping a less expensive alternative to the high priced MC's might be an option.

Dear @pops : I posted about MM cartridges because you ask for but in reality you own two LOMC cartridges that can't be outperformed by MM ones.

I owned the Jubilee and owned the the Transfiguration Temper and Phoenix S and listened the Proteus that is excellent performer.

To fix both great cartridges is the best alternative if you want that high quality level performance.

Other than SS exist other rettipers as Van den Hul or Northwest Analogue (  https://www.northwestanalogue.com/cartridge-repairs.html )
or Expert Stylus and some others out there. So you have option about.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Thanks for all the feedback, just what I need.

@onhwy61 retipping is certainly an option.  In addition to SS, Ortofon offers a rebuild service on the Jubilee for a minimum of around $1200.  Not cheap.  

Also considering searching someone to possible repair my Proteus after only 450 hours.  That one burns a bit since for me it was ultra expensive.  Bought that one before I retired!

@uberwalts

Be hard pressed to find a good FR-5E for much less than a $100 nowadays Chakster. And nearly all I have seen for sale of late are in Russia or Japan, hard to find one here in USA.And it is a very light cart so not going to suit all arms for sure.

I’ve been there, tried it years ago, i think i sold mine for $100-120 to a friend. It was better than the new Grado in the same price range. It’s lighweight, but with 13g shell it’s fine. To my ears FR-5e was better that FR-6se. You’re right that Japanese cartridges are cheaper in Japan. But in the USA you have some nice Stanton / Pickering at garage sale i hope :) The 881s is great, but on ebay it’s more expensive.

@cakyol

Its really not the cartridge that makes that much difference in the 300 - 400 dollar range but the stylus type.

Not only stylus, but a cantilever type and effective mass also responsible for frequency response. It is possible to find vintage MM with Beryllium Pipe cantilever for example. But it’s impossible to find/buy any new cartridges with beryllium cantilever at any price (the closest is Boron).

@johnnyb53 

It stands to reason that the Shibata would be an even better tracker because that stylus shape was designed to track discrete quadraphonic LPs, which have the back channels modulated up to 40Khz. So my Shibata negotiaates every part of an LP flawlessly, especially when it comes to the inner groove area, where it tracks without a hint of fuzz or grunge.

Yep. Shibata is great, originally invented by JVC Victor, the X-1II was the best.

Its really not the cartridge that makes that much difference in the 300 - 400 dollar range but the stylus type.

Here are roughly the stylus types in ascending quality order:
conical
elliptical
hyper elliptical
micro line
shibata
line contact

The break point is around micro line.  Get a moving magnet (cheaper and does not need expensive moving coil phono amps) with a microline stylus: VM50040ML
 
Check out the following:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media/vc/d8d67b8f-5ee3-455f-a9cb-a551423af5e9.png

PS: There is an argument as to whether shibata or microline is better.  I think they are very close:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eltkbgtr4O4

I bought an AT150MLX back in 2008. I got a lot of good sound and good wear out of it for around 10 years. Then I got a bent cantilever. At that time, AT was having trouble getting boron for the cantilever, so they switched the cantilever/stylus on the AT150 to a tapered aluminum cantilever with a nude Shibata. Price was really good and I mail ordered it from Wal-Mart of all things. I've been using that combo ever since. I thought I liked the MicroLine stylus, but I *really* like the Shibata.

It stands to reason that the Shibata would be an even better tracker because that stylus shape was designed to track discrete quadraphonic LPs, which have the back channels modulated up to 40Khz. So my Shibata negotiaates every part of an LP flawlessly, especially when it comes to the inner groove area, where it tracks without a hint of fuzz or grunge.

Be hard pressed to find a good FR-5E for much less than a $100 nowadays Chakster. And nearly all I have seen for sale of late are in Russia or Japan, hard to find one here in USA.

And it is a very light cart so not going to suit all arms for sure.

@agrippa

If I remember correctly (seldom a given), the 110 and 150 share a body, as do the 200 and 300, while the body of the 500 is further improved.

Nagaoka trademark called Jeweltone in Japan
just like JVC called Victor in Japan (different trademark for different region)

a $40 Jeweltone MP-10 is Nagaoka MP-100 but for a lower price, because it’s vintage model.

The Jeweltone MP-50 is nothing but the most expensive Nagaoka PM-500

If you like Nagaone look for Jeweltone and i’m sure you can buy it cheaper.

P.S. Another very cheap cartridge is Fidelity-Research FR-5e (or 5se) MM which can be found for $50 and on the right headshell can be very nice, best bang for the buck. 

For that to be true the AT-ML170/180 would basically have to be the best cartridges ever made, by some margin, as to my ears the 150MLX/Sa are both reasonably close to being state of the art. Maybe they are just that, as I've never heard either, but I kinda doubt it. Or at least I doubt that it is anything even vaguely approaching an objective fact.

@agrippa They are the best, unfortunately all audiogon users who actually have them and compared them are not active anylonger here and instead we have just the basic recommendations for usual suspects. 

The difference between MLX series and vintage AT-ML series is obvious, the cantilever is completely different, the moving mass is different, the frequency response is different ... and so on. They are from the same manufacturer, but different legue.  

Highly recommended if you have not tried yet, even AT-ML150 with Beryllium cantilever is a killer MM (cheaper than AT-ML170). 

The AT made a lot of cartridges, my first one was ART-2000 MC, it was $600 cartridge (limited edition) and i was blown away. But the AT-ML series is much better. I am a big fan of AT, it depends how far we would like to go in upgrade. In case with MM it's better to go backward to the 80's.  

Why not retip the Jubilee?  I believe Soundsmith can do it for around $500.  It's also possible that the Jubilee, as is, with 1,500 hours on it may still sound better than some of the models you're considering.

The MP200 and MP150 bodies are not the same though, the 200 being an upgraded design. A 200 stylus will no doubt be an upgrade, but the result won’t be an actual MP200.

Also, given the above it makes more sense to just upgrade to an MP200, as the stylus isn’t that much cheaper.

If I remember correctly (seldom a given), the 110 and 150 share a body, as do the 200 and 300, while the body of the 500 is further improved.

Fstein.
Thank you for the tip
As my cart is nearly new, well less than 100 hours I hope it will be a LONG time before I need a new stylus.
However I will look into it, maybe having an upgraded stylus might also make sense.
Thank you

Uberwaltz: the MP200 BORON stylus fits the MP 150 for a great and easy upgrade

I have an old AT 440 ML body with a NOS AT 125 SLC stylus on it. It works well on my vintage Technics deck. I was using an Ortofon 2M Red, but it sounded somewhat flat. The Ortofon, however, sounded better on the Project deck I used to own. I think there has to synergy between tone arm and cartridge. I'm guessing that the AT was developed around the time my Technics was new and may have been the reference brand the Technics was developed around. I think low end Ortofons were used by Project as their reference cartridge as the OM5e was the supplied cartridge and 2M Reds are pretty standard on their more recent budget decks. When my 125 SLC wears out, I may try one of the new AT Microline or Shibata styli that fit on the old body designs. I think AT's are a safe bet for a sub 1K cartridge.

"The statement that all new cartridges are good is false"

Has anyone actually made such a statement though?

"AT150MLX is not even near the old AT-ML170 or AT-ML180 series"

For that to be true the AT-ML170/180 would basically have to be the best cartridges ever made, by some margin, as to my ears the 150MLX/Sa are both reasonably close to being state of the art.  Maybe they are just that, as I've never heard either, but I kinda doubt it.  Or at least I doubt that it is anything even vaguely approaching an objective fact.

As far as reasonable & good cartridges go, the VM540 and the lower-end Nagaokas are no doubt among the better bets available today.

- Nagaoka MP-110
- Grado Prestige 2 series ~ Black2, Green2, or Blue2
- Goldring E3

I should probably try the Nagaoka on a better table.  I hate changing carts on that Music Hall table though, the leads are about as thick as a human hair and easy to break.