Best affordable amp for Thiel CS3.6
Hi Tom and others. I've read this post with much interest. And although I see it's old, on the outside chance that there is email notifications on new posts, I put this here as well. I've just posted a question that refreshes all of this discussion, as I've just purchased a set of Thiel 3.6s, and am looking to outfit the speakers with an appropriate amp. --Or at the very least, an upgrade path that begins with an affordable solution for the time being. As Tom's post seems to conclude, Theta is a well-recommended brand; and I see an opportunity to purchase a Casablanca unit. But this seems to be not an amp, but controller/pre-amp of sorts. And although most people, across this entire discussion, are saying >200 watts per channel, it was interesting that the Theta Intrepid was 100 wpc. The system I was originally looking at was Denon AVR-x7200, as this brought me many of the features I was looking for: music focus ability, then 4k passthrough HT, Airplay and/or AppleTV, Internet radio, and Network attached storage for lossless-type play. Could you give me some thoughts please? Or perhaps review my just-placed post for thoughts? https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/recommended-amp-for-thiel-3-6-newbie Thanks much! |
Since June 2005, when I made a number of changes to my system, I've been driving my 3.6s with a pair of the Rowland 201 monoblocks, and I've been very pleased with the combination. The sound is smoother, fuller, more relaxed and more natural, while at the same time more detailed, than it was before. I can only echo what Gnobber said on 1-22-04: it's amazing how the 3.6s reward you whenever a higher quality component is inserted upstream -- the improvement is immediately audible! |
No, I was rather disappointed that I was not able to compare the Enterprises to an FPB series Krell. I have heard that if you want incredibly strong bass, then nothing pushes Thiel speakers like Krell amps. However, I was more concerned about accurate bass, which is an area where the Thetas excel. The Thetas are also supposedly a bit sweeter on the high end (and I can attest to the fact that they are very musical on the highs - more so than the Edge, for sure). Still, it would have been a great comparison to make. Tom. |
Tom, Before you bought the Enterprises, did you by any chance listen to any of the Krell FPB series amps with your 3.6's? I have the same speakers, and I'm considering getting a used pair of 250M monoblocks. I would be interested to know how you thought the sound of the 3.6's driven by the Enterprises compared to them being driven by the Krells. Thanks, Alan |
If I could edit the header on this thread I would. Perhaps I should call it something like: "Thiel CS3.6's, and the Uberamps that Drive Them" or "How my Thiels sucked my wallet dry" Really, though, it is a testament to the great value of these speakers that they are able to show just what really good amps are able to do. The upside of all of this is that I find myself listening to (and enjoying) music more and more since picking up the Thiels (and the gear that followed). And ultimately, that is what it's all about. Tom. |
When will the Madness stop?!?! A friend of mine has a perfect condition Plinius amp just sitting in his basement and I hear it calling to me from here. Luckily so far I have listened to amps so far out of reach I have never really considered them seriously but his Plinius is looking mighty attractive. I am in the business and can likely obtain about anything at cost but this is here now and tempting. Know what I mean? Tom,I asked about your change in direction as this thread mentions "affordable" at least at first. Unfortunatly these speakers can really benefit from Crazy Price Electonics. Whose fault is that? I didn't mean to get them ......really,I just can't help myself |
Yes, indeed, my budget theory got shot through the roof! ;^) What did it for me was auditioning amps. I had my old Adcom GFA-555II with me for a reference, and what I found was that stepping up to a $2,000-3,000 amp had some benefits, but still, there were some things that the old Adcom did better than these amps. Once I heard the Enterprises, though, the difference was shocking. Not to name names, but compared to another manufacturer's $3,000.00 amp, they beat it in every category, and significantly blew it's doors off in imaging and soundstage (which are important to me). Then, I did a head to head, in my home comparison versus a modded Edge NL-10 (retail of over $12,000), and the Enterprises also beat them handily (to my ears, at least). I think that once I heard just how good my 3.6's can sound with excellent amplification, I didn't want to go back to anything else. That, and an unexpected inflow of cash helped out. :^) FWIW, my favorite amp at close to the $2,000 mark was actually the Theta Intrepid driving just the Thiels. That "little" Intrepid just amazes me. It doesn't have the depth of soundstage, or the detail of the Enterprises, but it is very balanced, quite capable in the lows, and has very good width of soundstage. Tom. |
Tom I am wondering at what point you decided to up the anty from your original goal of around $2000.00 for an amplifier?!? Unless I am mistaken didn't you end up spending three times that much or so? I also am curious at what price level did the performance inmprovement really hit you. Congatulations also. Ed |
BTW, in case anyone is following this anymore, I ended up with a pair of Enterprises in addition to the Intrepid. All I can say is, "Wow!" I did get a chance to audition the Edge NL-10 in my home, and it doesn't come close to matching the open, spacious feel of the Enterprises, nor does it sound as musical. It is a bit analytical by comparison. I'd say the NL-10 is indeed slightly faster, but the difference here was nowhere near as big as the advantage to the Thetas in soundstage and imaging. Now, to upgrade pre/pro and source components! Thanks again to all who helped me with this decision making process. You folks really were very helpful. Tom. |
Well, I did get the chance to audition my 3.6's with a couple of amps yesterday. My first thoughts were amazement at just how well the CS3.6's can sound! :^) In addition to listening to one of my GFA-555II's, I auditioned McCormack DNA-225, Theta Enterprise monoblocks, Theta Intrepid, and EDGE NL-10. The DNA-225 quickly dropped out of the running. It's tonal balance was fine, and its low end control was very good, but it seemed to fall on its face in the imaging and depth/width of soundstage. In truth, the 555II noticeably exceeded the DNA-225 in all of these regards (which shocked me), although the Adcom was otherwise clearly outclassed by the McCormack. The Theta Enterprises sounded absolutely marvelous. Great tonal balance, and a level of detail, imaging and soundstage that blew me away, with controlled, natural low end, and a bit of a high end sheen. Very musical for a solid state amp. The Enterprises really showed me what the Thiels could do. Ideally, I wanted to hear a Dreadnaught II with the 3.6's, but all they had was an Intrepid. Talk about an eye-opener! That 5-channel, 100 watt amp has no right to sound as good as it does with those 3.6's! Especially considering the price. It most definitely captures the "Theta sound", and while it lacked the level of detail, separation, and depth of soundstage that the Enterprises offer, its tonal balance, width of soundstage, and low end performance were remarkably similar to the much costlier monoblocks. At a different location, I had an opportunity to audition the EDGE NL-10. This is a very fast, neutral amp. It pushed the 3.6's with ease, and really brought out the best of their dynamic ability. Given that I was in very different rooms, with vastly different associated gear, it was difficult to really compare the NL-10 to the Enterprises, but I can definitely say that they are in the same league. Both made my Thiels do things that I had never heard before. If I had to try to articulate a comparison, and considering all of the other variables, I'd say that the NL-10 was noticeably faster, and had extreme dynamic control, and was quite possibly more neutral, but the Enterprises were more sweet and musical, and had perhaps a bit more low end fullness. While I haven't completely ruled out EDGE, I am thinking of using the Intrepid for my center and surrounds, and either getting a 2-channel Dreadaught II or the Enterprises for my 3.6's. Yes, going the Enterprise route pretty much blows my "affordable" thing, but they really did make those Thiels sing. Tom. |
I'm not sure it's fair to lump the Rowland 201 with any previous Rowland products. I don't know that you are Unsound, but in case. (And it could be fair. The only other Rowland amp I know well is the Model 1, which hardly counts.) I have not heard the 201's with 3.6's, but with my 2.4's, I simply cannot imagine a better match, and I find myself succumbing to a case of warrenh disease, if you know what I mean. :-) |
I'll pipe in with some more arrogant, biased opinions. The Rowlands are similar to the Levinson gear. They both have a some what soft laid back presentation. A little too laid back for me with the Thiels. The Thiels while adequate are not the most dynamic speakers, (this may seem contradictory) yet with the wrong gear they can be a bit up front. Where I think the Rowlands surpass the Levinson stuff is in the rich, lush soundstage and harmonics that belies it's solid state technology. Not my personal first choice, but, I can ceratinly imagine it being someone elses. I might pick the Rowlands as my third choice. If you can find one at the right price it could be a worthwhile consideration. I don't think the intergrateds can handle the load, it might be safer to stick with the seperates. BTW, Rowland has great web site, with details about past products readibly avavilable. |
I may be getting out of my "affordable" category, but it looks like I may get a chance to audition some amps from Sim Audio (but not the W-5, it looks like) and perhaps an EDGE NL-10, too. I've heard nothing but good things about EDGE, so I will be looking forward to hearing the NL-10 with my Thiels. Tom. |
Thank you for the detailed response, Ed! I do appreciate your feedback. The HCA-3500 does appear to offer a lot for the money. Now, I just need to find one to audition. I have read elsewhere that the JC 1's are based to a certain extent on the HCA-3500 design, but with noticeable improvements. But reviews of the JC 1 are all over the map. Some claim it is the holy grail, and others call it woefully overrated. Again, without auditioning, I will never know for myself. I may have to keep my eyes out for an ML-3, too, from what you say. I am hoping to audition a couple of amps on Thursday, including Theta Enterpises and McCormack DNA-225. Sure, that's a big price discrepency, but I am hoping to get a feel for the Theta sound and the McCormack sound. I may be able to hear a Classe CA-301, too. Tom. |
I can not speak directly to the new mono-blocks with the Thiels. I have intalled a couple of them but they were more for show than for go,if you know what I mean. I feel the other Halo product to be somewhat over hyped and I have not been too impressed with them. The old standby HCA-2200 was a workhorse and had almost enough guts for the 3.6 but lost some control at high output levels. The 3500 has been a big surprise to me in that it compares with amplifiers much more expensive without a lot of trade-offs. The thing I like the most is the overall smoothness and number of things it just gets right. No real glaring defects that I experience and I have listened to it with several pairs of expensive speakers. I am probably going to end up with something better eventually but have no complaints at all with the 3500 especially considering the price. Like the Thiels the HCA3500 gives a great bargain for the money. When my friend got his CS7's we tried both a 2200mkII and the 3500 and it was quite educational as to current demands of a truly difficult speaker to drive. Althought the 2200 never shut down or complained there was just not the sense of ease and breath that more current capability brings. We listened to several amps,Krell,Levinson,ARC,Plinius,Classe and I remembered the old Levinson ML-3 from systems I had done a long time ago. The ML-3 was one of the first really high-current designs and could deliver seemingly unlimited power when needed. Another friend had one and we tried it and finally the cs7 had enough to really handle it. Although the cs7's are in a large room and the ML-3 is not as refined as some of the other newer amps it handled the big Thiels in a way that could not be matched for the price. We found another ML3 on Audiogon and that is what he uses still. The Synergy between ALL of the components is what makes the difference between just good and great sound in my experience and as many have stated already the 3.6 will clearly demonstrate each change for better or worse. I also have never been as aware of cable differences as with the Thiels and that is fairly hard to exhaustivly compare but worth the effort. I would listen to as many amps that you can afford but let me know if the 3500 has any real competition at the pricepoint. I would be surprised. Good Luck Ed |
Thanks for the nod to Parasound. In truth, I had been looking the Halo JC 1 monoblocks, as well. There have been some stunning reviews of these amps, but then again I have heard from several "real world" people that they are not up to the hype. That HCA-3500 certainly looks like it would have the brawn to handle my Thiels. How did the HCA-3500 and the 3.6's pair sonically? What are the sonic characteristics of the HCA-3500? Thanks, Tom. |
I just have to throw in my pitch for the Parasound HCA-3500. They are real inexpensive and have the guts to drive the CS3.6 and the CS7. I have used mine with NHT 2.9's and 3.3's and CS3.5's and CS3.6's I have tried a lot of more expensive units and feel I would have to spend several times the Parasound price for a subtle improvement even. My friend bought one for his CS7's after trying mine and it does a decent job. Hard to approach for the price and I saw a new one here today so it should even have a warranty. My friend ended up with a Levinson ML-3 for his CS7's in the end there is no substitute for High Current Capability. Not as smooth as the Parasound or many higher priced amplifiers but very gutsy for the price. Good Luck |
One Call has a close-out on a big ATI 5 channel amp at $1,500. You could use it for all channels or as a bi-amp plus center channel for fronts and add a smaller two channel amp for rears. http://ww1.onecall.com/About_50001000_22_68_0_0_0_0.htm Note: Must have 20A circut Dave |
I have been digging a little deeper into information regarding my current amp candidates, and I discovered that the Theta Dreadnaught II (which can be a 2-10 channel amp) has an option which allows you to place it into 2-channel operation (regardless of how many modules you have) and to send all of its current to just the two channels. This seems like an incredibly smart solution to the whole "2-channel, critical listening" and simultaneous "home theater" system. Any thoughts on how a Dreadnaught II in two channel mode (that would be 450w at 4 ohm) would drive my CS3.6's? This could be an interesting ticket. Another attractive option are those Theta Enterprise monoblocks. Hubba hubba! Of course, I would still need a multiple channel Dreadnaught II or Intrepid to keep a consistent HT setup. And that price tag would not be cheap. Thanks, Tom. |
I think we have to be cautious about lumping components with similar technologies into overyly broad generalizations. Some typical ss amps do well with lower impedance loads, some rare tube ones can work well too and visa versa. I suspect different digital amps may follow suit. I'm very excited about the potential of these new digital amps, but, have very very little experience with them. I've only heard them at shows. One product in multiple situations which didn't impress me too much and another in one situation that really did impress me. |
"FYI, digital amps are very efficient and generate little or no heat. I'm thinking of the Rowland (no heat sinks even) and probably the Acoustic Arts, Spectron, and Bel Canto amps." How will these drive the difficult, low impedance, CS3.6's? I haven't heard much about any of these brands, although I have some experience with digital amps in the live/pro audio field. Tom. |
One additional concern that I do have is that these amps will be going into an entertainment center, and even though I have customized it with some fairly nice (and pretty darn quiet) fans from Atlantic (with temperature activated variable speed control), I probably want to avoid the very hottest amps. Any thoughts on which amps run the hottest (or coolest) between Krell, McCormack, Theta, Pass, Classe' or Bryston? Those are probably my front runners. Thanks again! You folks have been very helpful. Tom. |
Tom, you are very intuitive. That was exactly my point. Mind you there are some very good deals on the used market. Your current budget may force compromises. For just a little bit more money you can get the level of finess that will be a forward rather than a lateral move and the amount of power needed to really to push the Thiels. The cash outlay isn't really that much more on the used market. There may be some other options as well. |
Tom, you are very intuitive. That was exactly my point. Mind you there are some very good deals on the used market. Your current budget may force compromises. For just a little bit more money you can get the level of finess that will be a forward rather than a lateral move and the amount of power needed to really to push the Thiels. The cash outlay isn't really that much more on the used market. |
Great response, Unsound! I very much appreciate your insight and assistance. While Pass and the Krell FPB series are both out of my (initial) price range new, I have seen deals on used amps from each that are within my realm of affordability. And ultimately, my goal is to build a system that I can be happy with for some time, so dealing with the Adcoms a little longer, and saving up some more cash, is preferable to playing the multiple upgrade game. Tom. |
OK Tom, bear in mind that a lot of this is subject a lot of personal biases. I love the Krell on Thiels. IMHO they are not nearly as bright and lean as some make them out to be. While the McCormacks have nice tight bass and smooth liquid highs, I think they can be some what forward and shouty, not something that would compliment the Thiels. I haven't heard the Theta's. The Brystons are nice, I particularly like the 3BST. The Brystons are probably some where between what you have now and the better amps on your list. How ever there has been some talk here on Audiogon with regard to their inability to handle low impedance loads. Considering your 3.6's drop to 2.5 Ohms, I'd be more than a little cautious. I find the Classe' a bit soft in the bass and a bit chalky on top. These critisims should not be taken out of context, I really do mean a bit. Rumor has it that the 200 Watt and above models are superior to the lower powered versions. The Classe' is probably between the Bryston and the next level, but I wouldn't argue if others placed them differently. The Classe' is a sound choice for the Thiels. The Pass X series might be the best amps I've ever heard. I love the lack of electronic flavor/haze that dwells in so much solid state gear and they are a lot cleaner and more dynamic than the Aleph predecesors. They should work beautifully with the Thiels. Unfortunatley your budget may prohibit the power levels your accustomed to. From your short list I would consider in order: Pass, Krell and Classe'. If any others come up for consideration I'd be happy to share my arrogant, pompous point of view. While I think that amps may be more important with Thiels than most speakers, try not to forget how the amps will work in the complete system, now and in the future. Good luck |
In case anyone has two or more cents that they'd like to toss in, I am presently considering (to some extent, at least) amps from all of the following manufacturers: Krell, McCormack, Theta, Bryston, Classe, and Pass. I might add one or two more to the list, but quite frankly, I will have a hard time auditioning all of these, particularly Pass and Classe, as I don't have any dealers within a reasonable drive. I would very much like to audition an amp before I commit, but I have heard enough good things about Classe and Pass to consider them, so long as I have a return option. Thanks, Tom. |
Classe and Levinson have definitely been added to my list. As for Spectral, yes, the folks at Progressive had good things to say about them, but because of having to use Spectral's preamp, and because I also use these speakers/amp(s) for home theatre, they didn't think it was as good of a match. Plus, after looking at photos and discussing my room, they agree with me that I have a "bass-sucking" room, which may require a fairly stout amp. I am hoping to be able to audition my CS3.6's with amps from Krell, McCormack, and Theta (and my Adcoms, of course) down at Progressive. I'd love to hear Bryston, Classe and Levinson, as well, so I may see if any dealers in my area carry them. Thanks again for all the feedback, Tom. |
Hi Tombowlus, I have been using a class ca 200 for 3 years - although it's the only amp I've used on my 3.6's I really have no desire to change to another brand - maybe a bigger classe or newer design. This amp drives my thiels with ease in a large room, never reaches strain or congestion and I listen to alot of dynamic music, never runs unusually hot. Top to bottom and thru the midrange I have been very satisfied. |
I'm glad to hear you trust Progressive because I put myself in their hands in large part when I put my system together. I have Thiel 2.4s driven by a Spectral DMA-100S. I got the amp used for just over 2,000 and it drives the speakers well, except for maybe the most extreme volumes. So for the 3.6s, while I'm sure the load would be no problem for any of the Spectral gear, you might want more wattage (mine is 100W into 8 ohms) which would probably push you above your stated budget. This may be why Progressive didn't mention Spectral. The other problem is Spectral demands that their amps be combined with Spectral pres. It wouldn't hurt to ask Progressive for their opinion on how the Spectrals stack up against the other gear if you talk to them again. I listened to the McCormack DNA-125 and I thought the jump up from the Adcom (don't know what model) to the McCormack was greater, more striking than the jump up from the McCormack to the Spectral. Never auditioned Krell. Enjoy your shopping. |
