Best €2500 sub purely for music?

I think smaller drivers are better with music, a pair of 8 or 10 inch SEALED subs, Nothing bigger, nothing ported. The "gold standard" for musical subs are TBI:

https://tbisound.com

Thats still a US company. I cannot pay the outrageous duty tax for those things. It needs to be a European or British company. US products here are 50% more expensive than they should be and are uncompetitive for those prices. 

OK, just go with a pair of 8 or 10 inch SEALED subs 

Rythmik subs give you adjustable phase which is critical for integration. They're under the radar for most folks but compete well with REL for value.

People have completely ignored that I live in Europe. I guess Americans weren’t taught to read too well. Rythmik doesn’t exist here. Why wasn’t that clear to you in my post?

If you haven’t considered this maybe just reach out to German physiks and ask them what subwoofer options they might suggest to best match your speakers and objectives - link below. Also, in a google search I came across Arendal in Norway, I have no firsthand knowledge of them, but maybe they are an option to contact and discuss what you’re after.

Just one of those  Americans but  trying to help

https://www.german-physiks.com/german-physiks-contact-general-enq

https://arendalsound.com/types/subwoofer/

@endymion_joshi-godrez Before you blame Americans' ability to read, you might consider that you can find Rythmiks used in Europe. Look on HiFi Shark, FFS.

But I won’t waste more time giving you any more advice.

I don’t know what brands are available in Europe so I can’t recommend a certain brand. I am also not sure what synthetic music is but my guess is that it is music where the musicians create it by using synthesizers rather that traditional instruments and in my experience it is rather a bass centric style. If I am correct you are going to want a very high output sub since you need to reproduce a 40 Hz signal approximately 20 dbspl louder than a 1K signal just to have them sound like they are at the same volume level. I also believe that you will require a driver no smaller than 30 cm and you will want that in a sealed well braced and damped enclosure. One of the biggest issues with subs is to be able to get the driver to stop quick enough and subs that have servo control are better at doing that. Subs with opposing drivers have less cabinet issues.

Having said that, have you tried bi-amping your hrs-130’s? That might give you the extra bass energy you are looking for with-out the drawbacks of a single sub woofer.

Dynaudio, Focal, Sonus Faber, B&W, DALI are all Euro’s who make quality speakers and subs.  

Your confusing a -6dB sub-bass speaker with a subwoofer. Nothing wrong with that just be aware.

Californian Silicon Valley technology sold to a German company.

https://www.velodyneacoustics.com/en/

I can’t say if these folks are actually producing the DD Plus or their simply new old stock. I’ve been using these technology advances since 1983 and two DD Plus since 2011 without a problem. I see their price has gone up substantially for American purchase but your getting remote controlled, six customizable presets and total Auto EQ. The Swiss Army knife of subwoofers.

I’m not a fan of total system DSP so another model in there line up may be more appropriate and less expensive to your needs. Good luck with your search.

Did someone seriously just get upset at me because I didn't consider that a product exists in a regoin because it has existed at one point on the used market? That is spectacular.

As biamping, no tower no matter the size is going to give you the bass authority that a sub will carrying the frequencies below 60hz. At least one that is a technically capable. It has absolutely nothing to do with power.

Velodyne looks like to be one of the only other options in Europe that makes something like the s series. All other subs of this peice range are enormous, and are completely inappropriate for my needs. Thank you. (PS John Hunter himself calls the subwoofers, all the technicians I’ve talked to called rels subwoofers and the marketing on their website called their products subs. The company itself disagrees with that distinction). My only concern is 1. Nemo propaganda, who is someone I trust for subwoofer recommendations, had a horrible experience with their entry level model. It wasn’t broken, it was just terribly braced and designed. 2 A lot of music/HT subs still play like HT subs, which is a presentation I dont like. They exaggerate bass. JL audio, SVS, and the mass majority of subs do this. Rel and rythmik do not. If you have experience one of the sub brands from both sides, could you inform me what side velodynes usally sit on?

@endymion_joshi-godrez 

so you are in Europe?

(wait, I tried something never attempted in the history of audiogon: humor.) 

on the subject: Monitor Audio subs were on my radar when I did my search.

(I don't know if it has the features you are looking for, and I don't know how far the closest Monitor Audio store is to you. I am pretty bad at reading, and I am not even American, I was just born this way)

That looks to be a great option too. Thank you.

btw I think in subs, Martin Logan is a sleeper. I tested 5 different brands and models and ended up with the 700 which beat all the other ones (Klipsch, SVS, Elac, Polk). It’s not perfect but way better than the other ones, blends in with my speakers smoothly.

I checked the prices for you, they look to be the same for the UK as for the US.

I would have tried Monitor Audio as I love their speakers, but it was out of my price range. 

Also, from what I saw from darko, the KEF KC62 is probably cutting edge too.

Did someone seriously just get upset at me because I didn't consider that a product exists in a regoin because it has existed at one point on the used market? That is spectacular.

No, people got upset with you because the way you spoke was insulting and rude.

Viz., 

People have completely ignored that I live in Europe. I guess Americans weren’t taught to read too well. 

That's pretty "spectacular."  GFY.

In the subwoofer market you'll be better served by speaking to specific models of a brand. Lower cost models can be easily out performed by that brands higher end models. This may the case with your reference to SVS and JL Audio. 

If your going to be digitizing your entire audio band with Dirac a good quality non processing properly positioned sub could save you money. 

@endymion_joshi-godrez 

I might suggest you look into the ATC C1 sub.

Wow the OP seems like a tool. People are trying to help you why be such a Dick! 

I have the Velodyne micro vee first generation before the company got purchased.  I think it's a great little sub.  I use it on my HT setup and its been in service for many years. They still make a version of it call the Micro Vee X. I have it hooked up LFE.  I loaned it to  a friend and he preferred it hooked up a speaker level.   He promptly went out and got himself a sub after that 😆

If you want you can check out XTZ speakers, they have multiple subs and they have a warehouse in Sweden and list their prices in Euro's.

I dont think many of you have heard a sub like a s510. We are talking about a subwoofer that retails for $2700 in the US, yet has less bass extention than a svs sb2000. There is a very good reason why it cost over 4 times more, which is why I was asking from people that do not use subwoofera for HT. A HT sub is simply not what I want, both because SPL was never an issue from the smaller rels I had, and the HT subs like the XTZ recommended to me have a bass presentation I dont like. They exaggerate bass, the mass majority of sub makers including kef, svs, JL and so on do that. I don’t want a sub like that. Rels dont, and apparently neither do rythmiks sealed subs. I want alternatives like that in the plus €2000 range. 

@endymion_joshi-godrez 

I have to disagree that no tower speakers can do bass well under 60 hz. My Rockport Avior ii speakers give me all the bass I need in my room. No subs. Also just pull the trigger on the S510s. We have 4 in our HT set up and they work great for 2 channel music too. The enjoyment will out way the price 

The rockports are WAY bigger and more expensive than my speakers, they need something like a no.25 or 32, and you will hear a noticeable improvement than without even a single. I think you're right, one thing abouts rels they seemly never break. There are still ebay auctions of rel stadium in working condition, thats around 30 years of use. I’ve yet to see anyone show me that they block one, while velodyne, JL, and B&W subs seem to have a tone of issues in the long term.

even monitors can do well under 60Hz, otherwise I wouldn't have a crossover mess with my sub.

@ronboco 

My Rockport Avior ii speakers give me all the bass I need in my room. No subs.

Counter-argument -- https://youtu.be/tGeNwgT18bA?t=39

You can reply, "I have a specially designed room."

That may defeat Paul's point -- for your room.

But, most people don't have a specially designed room.

Therefore, they might need subs even if they have full range speakers.

@hilde45 

Good point I did neglect to mention my room which helps negate the need for subs but I stand by my comment that towers can do well below 60hz. 

Regards 

Ron 

Damn, my heel, Mr hilde coming in cluch the facts, too bad he still can’t read. On a serious note, the main point of a sub is so you can high-pass problematic frequenies at the positioning of your speakers in the room. It could well be the best positioning for other frequencies has a bass node. Doing what rel suggests by just blending the two full range is objectively inferior in evey single provable way and from a subjective standpoint, sounds significantly worse from all the Rels I’ve had previously. Get a SHD or anything else that can blend the two flawlessly like JL crossover unit (though, I don’t think you can set it to have anything more than 24db drop off which would still mean its audible at 80hz (-8db) with a 60hz crossover. Thats not acceptable for music).

@hilde45 cool video. Not 100% compelling, doesn't say why you can't have good enough bass from your speakers but pretty convincing that having a sub is better :) 

is attacking people's reading skills some kind of medical condition?

if you are new here: the OP usually asks a question, and then people write whatever they feel, relevant or not. It's not an SAT.

@ronboco 

I stand by my comment that towers can do well below 60hz. 

I really don't deny that. I have heard Paul and other experts say that nearly any full range speaker can benefit from subs — not just do well below 60hz without them, but benefit. Now, whether that is a big or small benefit would come back to how severe the room issues are. I think we are in agreement!

Damn, my heel, Mr hilde coming in cluch the facts, too bad he still can’t read. 

Too bad you can't write — or use a spell checker. Let's review: the word "heel" is nonsense in your post,  "cluch" is not a word, and you do not know when to use a semicolon instead of a comma. Seriously: have you had enough education to post on this forum? I'm beginning to doubt that.

@grislybutter 
Exactly. A forum is not a test where you answer the OP's post. A post starts a thread, and then we write whatever we want to contribute, no matter what the OP says. The OP is not the boss of us.

Fair game, it auto corrected me because I use both the German and English keyboard. I didnt see both of them were still wrong. You can't be emotionally compromised because of a intermet forum. That remark should of had no impact on you whatsoever, because it was true. 

"if there are any alternatives to the s510 you recommend between €2k and €3k IN EUROPE (so no svs or rhythmic or any other US brand of any sort) that might be more appropriate for a purely hifi application?"

But yes, that spelling mistake was pretty bad all things considered. 

@hilde45 

I completely agree subs can help even with a good room. I would actually like to try 2 sometime. Happy listening !

@ronboco Maybe I could loan you a couple for long enough to see if they're what you need or want. We can talk!

@hilde45 

I would enjoy getting together to chat about it!

@ronboco 

I can see how you don’t need subs with the Avior II. I had a pair of Atria II that were good with out subs and could play down to 28hz at -3db. I did pair them with JL F100v2 subs and they sounded great. They filled out the bottom end.

with that being said I have moved up to the Cygnus and removed the subs. The Cygnus plays down to 20hz. In my room I actually have to cut 32hz by about 10db. They play low and clear. To get more from subs I would need to go to #31s. After upgrading my speakers that is a long way out. 
 

I am not sure where you are located but if you are coming up to axpona you are welcome to come check them out. 

@creditingkarma 

I attended Axpona last year but will not be attending this year. I would love to come hear your system! It looks amazing and I’m sure it sounds incredible! My dealer has the Cygnus in their main room.  Hopefully I will be able to come out next year. If you are ever in Colorado you are more than welcome to come over for a listen. 
 

Regards 

Ron

Not the most popular, but I-can attest that the B&W DB3 is VERY musical and fast.1000W CLASS D amp. Has rooM correction and the sub is controlled by an amp on your phone. Balanced and RCA imputS. It is seamless whichever speaker I use with it. A bit pricey compared to the others mentioned, but for me its worth it, especially the remote app to make adjustments on the fly,

["e_j-g (PS John Hunter himself calls the subwoofers, all the technicians I’ve talked to called rels subwoofers and the marketing on their website called their products subs. The company itself disagrees with that distinction)."]

The folks in West Berkeley are a nice bunch. I suppose when you buy the brand you can call it what ever you want. The original designer Richard Edmund Lord (REL) termed them a Sub-Bass System as seen on his Operating Instructions and referred to in the links below. Their measured performance confirms little functionality has changed since the 2007 sale.

https://www.manua.ls/rel/studio-iii/manual

https://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0704/relstadiumiii.htm

https://www.paragonsns.com/products/rel-acoustics-studio-iii-sub-bass-system