B&W vs Vandersteen?

I agree that the Vandy 3 sounds larger than the Quatro. It's 5 inches higher than the Quatro and some of the drivers are larger. I liked the sleeker look of the Quatros and the bass tunability. I've never heard the 5.

Antonkk, just make sure you have enough power to bring them to life. I also have 802D's and went from a 125W tube amp to bi-amp with class D amps (4 amps) and it made a huge difference in the speakers. They really love high current amps.
Paul

Nrenter, our local dealers don't offer any decent discounts on the discontinued 800D line, on the contrary their policies are hype and hysteria a-la "grab 'em now for that price as there will be none left next week and the new series will be nearly twice more expencive". So the offer from a friend who was upgrading on a mint pair was too good to refuse.

Daverz, I heard Quatro many times and never liked 'em. Unlike models 3 and 5 it always sounded "small" to me. Maybe it was a set up. With Vandies Quatro or Five you never know if it's the the way the crossover was set up that you're hearing or the speakers themselves. Anyway, all Vandies no matter what model have a highly recognisable signature sound and I came to conclusion that it's a bad rather than a good thing. Plus as good and musical Vandies are I'm yet to hear them play certain kinds of music well (modern metal for example) while B&W's don't give a flying **** about what kind of music they play - be it Mozart or Slayer, Miles or Eagles, Crimson or James Brown - they don't impose their signature all over it like Vandies do. Now don't get me wrong - I still think Vandies are terrific but simply not the speaker I need now.

So you shopped at dealers, yet bought used?

"Very often numbers speak of names rather than a true value."

Sure, but I still think either Quatro model would be a better comparison to the B&W 802D. I guess the OP was not able to hear the Quatros?

Daverz,
Very often numbers speak of names rather than a true value. Listener really decides to the best.

Let's keep in mind we're comparing a $4k speaker (Vandie 3A sig) to a $14k speaker (B&W 802D).

that splash you just heard was stringreen jumping off a bridge

Folks, thanx for all your responses, thoughts and impressions. I nearly bought the Vandies, however teh guy who sold 'em could not deliver them for a few days and that gave me time to make a final comparison. Different dealers', different rigs but still. B&W 802D blew away the Vandies on hard rock material and that sealed the deal. No matter how much I like the Vandersteen smoothness, there will be always something missing for me while B&W seems to make everything right. I'm goin' for B&W 802D (which I also found used localy for a great price).

Just use common sense and look that a Plus is not near a minus
girls and boys
Thanks Johnnyr

Stringreen,

You mentioned, "Regarding the Vandersteen input posts. You need smaller (vintage) size spades. Yes you can use big one, but if you touch the metal mounting plate with a bit of left over spade, you will blow out the amp."

I just looked in the 3A Signature manual, and it says nothing about this.

It does say, "Bare wires should never come into contact with the aluminum dress plate while the amplifier is on. Amplifier damage may result."

That I understand for sure, but why wouldn't Mr. Vandersteen mention the large spade thing in the manual if it was a big risk?

I'm using pretty large Blue Jeans spades on my 2Ce Signatures, fwiw.

Given the size of your room, and the proposed set-up of your speakers, perhaps you should consider a slightly different Vandersteen option:

2ce Sig II speakers + a pair of 2wq subs.

Although your seating is a bit far back (given the distance between your speakers), your real challenge will be to load the room with bass. A pair of 2wq subs will do the trick. Plus, with the first-order roll-off 3 dB down at 120 hz, your main amps and speakers won't have to deal with sub-bass frequencies.

Personally, I think this would be a better option than either the Quatros or the 3a Sigs in your space. YMMV.

I had a pair of 801's and just moved to Quatros. Could not be happier with the added soundstage that the Quatro's provide. The 802' did not sound neutral in the base, too fat, like my old 801's.

802's were plenty listenable, but after I listened to broken in Quatros, and their magnificent imaging, it is hard to leave that behind for the 802's (about the same price, too).

I use McCormack MAP-1 and DNA-225 and it sounds great. Not sure where you heard it isn't a good match. Dead quiet and great sound for solid state electronics at good prices.

Antonkk - Running both the Vandersteens and the B&WD with Ayre K1xe preamp, V1xe amp, C5xemp Universal disc player, VPI Superscoutmaster with rim drive, 10.5i arm, and Benz Micro Ebony LP.

Anton
Contrary to what Dylanhenry says there are people like me who have heard both and choose Vandersteen. I don't know why people put that kind of personal opinion in these threads. How does he know that people who say they don't like B&W probably haven't heard them and don't like them because B&W is a successful company. That's rubbish. Vandersteen is a pretty successful company also.
But I digress. I compared Vandersteen 3As and B&W 802s at length. Not in a showroom either. There is always the issue of upstream equipment, which is in my opinion much more important than room size, given that your room is large enough. My friend Jay, who had bought both sets of speakers to compare them, was pushing them with MFA 200 tube mono blocks, an MFA Magus tube preamp, and premium wire. And MFAs are pretty sweet sounding amps. After extended listening over multiple visits we both agreed that the B&Ws didn't have it. All the usual complaints about B&W seemed to apply. That they were too bright, hard, and forward. That they didn't have a balanced presentation and the bass wasn't crisp enough. I found these all to be valid. And they hurt my ears.Jay's also. Way too much ear fatigue. If I can't listen to speakers for an extended period I'm notinterested, and the B&Ws hurt my ears. The Vandersteens on the other hand lived up to their reputation. A balanced harmonious presentation, big soundstage, great imaging, deep tight fast bass, and a much better emotional connection with the music, particularly the vocals. I've been hooked on Vandersteens since I got my first pair, a pair of 2Cis. People who hear Vandersteen for the first time often say they are too laid back, but I think that is because they, like me, had been used to speakers that were forward and shouted at you. Two days after I got my 2Cis I went back to the guy I had sold my Infinity Kappas to and begged him to sell the Kappas back to me, which he did. But after taking them home and hooking them up again I realized after a while the Vandys were better. In every way. It takes a while to get used to the balanced presentation the Vandersteens make, to realize they don't exaggerate anything, and if you are used to speakers that do, initially it seems like some thing is missing, but it's not. It's all there, in harmony and balance. And they are so rewarding to listen to, they give me a wonderful music thrill.
And I don't think there is any problem using McIntosh equipment to push Vanderateens. Brooks Berdan uses McIntosh almost exclusively in his showroom. He's in Monrovia, Ca., and sells Vandersteen, Wilson, and Quad speakers among others. He says he likes McIntosh and thinks they compliment each other. If you are in So. Cal. go talk to Brooks, he's a real sweetheart. And yes you can put banana plugs in Vandersteen speaker inputs. Just take the bolts out and the banana plugs fit right in. Well, Anton, you asked and there you are. There is a reason why the 2C is the largest selling speaker in the world, and there is a reason why there are so many B&Ws for sale on Audiogon, eBay, etc. I think Vandersteen is a much more harmonious, rewarding, and involving speaker than B&W

Did you have 802Ds? What were you running them with?

Antonkk.... I now am enjoying Vandersteen 5A's with all Ayre electronics. The B&W's are airless, lifeless, and burn out tweeers (although easily replaced ....I had to replace them twice and got new tweeters under the warranty. )

Stringreen, you said you dumped 802's for Vandies - which ones? With what amps and why? In what way the Vandies were better?

Vandersteen uses barrier strips for connectors, so you want to look for "barrier spades". Mr. Vandersteen recommends #10 O-rings (#10 is the size of the terminator, not the gauge they accept). I use these spades.

I dumped my 802's for Vandersteens. I got them at Audio Connection with John who will advise you soundly. He's a patient, and understands what you want. Give him a try...you can always walk out....I bet you put a check down first. Regarding the Vandersteen input posts. You need smaller (vintage) size spades. Yes you can use big one, but if you touch the metal mounting plate with a bit of left over spade, you will blow out the amp. Its best to use the smaller spades...easily installed by any wire manufacturer...probably a no cost request.

One more final question, folks - which speakers produce BIGGER image, soundstage, particulary drums? After living with JBL 150 for quite a while with their 12 inch woofers I'm kinda used to the BIG drum sound....)))

The B&W 802Ds for sure. The Vandersteen 3A Signature is good for its price, but comes nowhere close to the B&W 800 series, particular with the Diamond tweeter models.

You'll notice quickly on this board there are a lot of anti-B&W posters, which is fine. They are a well-known and successful speaker company, and no doubt you have those that resent them for that reason (sure, they might really not like their speakers, but most people don't like most speakers, and yet these people are mostly focused on B&W). So you should take with a grain of salt people saying, "easy choice, the "not B&W" is WAY better!". These people probably have never even heard either speaker, but are just criticizing B&W for whatever their reason is.

Anyway, I've heard both speakers and I think your doubts about the Vandersteen are correct. Not a bad speaker by any means, but the 802D is a rare speaker indeed. It's almost not fair to compare these two. For those that love its type of sound, it's nearly the perfect speaker (with perfection being unattainable).

I will add that I've listened to both (802D vs V5) and find the B&W a better all-around speaker than the Vandy. Not at all harsh. Livelier than Vandy. Vandy very relaxed, great for small ensemble and acoustic stuff, but to my ears will not rock like B&W can, aqnd the B&W does small and acoustic stuff very nicely as well. Of course, trust your own ears. For my ears, much as I like the B&W though, my personal favorites in the price range are the big 20.1 maggies and the NOLA Micro, as both offer a different sound that I like very much. For the record, I own B&W N803. Good luck.

My main concern with Vandersteen is their speed and tightness of the bass. If that can be achieved than they could be the ticket for me...

Well I don't want to pick for you since they are such different speakers and I don't know your taste. I wound up goign to Audio Connection and talking with John, great guy, I listened to both. Basically to get the same sound quality and detail in a B&W I had to spend alot more. The Vandersteen was also more laid back and for what I listen to I can listen for hours the BW is much harsher.

I have the vandersteen in a 7.2 set up and there speakers match super well they all blend perfect. i love the tuning post on some this is key if your room needs it. There large center channel is amazing also, voices sound so natural.

B&W on the other hand is what hollywood uses but unless you go high up in there line there is a huge difference in sound. I do like they way they look much more than the vandersteen though.

Antonkk, I'm coming back in late here, so maybe you already decided on a speaker, but I wanted to mention your room may be the determining factor. If you are set up on the short wall the Vandersteens don't work well without sufficient distance from the side walls. Also, with the rear firing woofer the speakers need to be farther into the room than some speakers.

Keep the McIntosh and go for the B&W 801s. Classic combination that you cannot go wrong with The V Steens are more picky and have a much poorer resale value vs the B&Ws

Antonkk, I posted on your preamp amp question also. But one thing the Vandersteen's offer is the ability to improve upon the sound. If your stuck with only the 3A Signatures you can tailor the last octave or two with a pair of 2Wq's and increase the performance of the 3A Sig's. At one point I was deciding between the the B&W and Vandersteen myself. You have narrowed down two very synergitic systems, not sure if home audition is available but it seems that is the point your at because they can take on a different character in a different environment. By the way the Vandersteen's play Metallica, Creed and Nickleback just fine, just with a different presentation as mentioned earlier. Hope this helps.

One more thing, I have never cared for the B&W's, so I do have a bias. I have been told that they sound much better (different)when driven by the big McIntosh solid state amps.

To me the Vandersteens are the clear winner. I had a pair of 3A sigs for a few months and found them to have incredibly tight bass when driven by a good high powered solid state amp. They also got quiet loud, but if you really crave high DB's may not be enough. FYI, I listen primarily to rock.

I sold the Vandies because I just couldn't part with my Maggie 2.7's and Velodyne ULD-12s (pair). The Vandersteens actually had tighter and deeper bass than that combo.

Antonkk, I have 2Ce Signatures - are the terminal screws different between the two?

I came home with the 802d's and have really enjoyed them... you just need good amps (high current) to turn them loose. I have also added the HTM2D center channel when in theater mode. I would buy them again in a heartbeat!

I'd choose the the Thiels and the Vandy's over the B&W's, but that's just me.

Theunderlyingtheme, do you have 3A Signatures? They have small-spades connections that most cables with standart spades (not to mention bananas) don't fit at all.

Antonkk,

Not sure what you mean when you say that the connectors on Vandy's require specially fitted spades.

I'm using spades made by freaking Blue Jeans Cable, and they're large, but fit just fine.

You should be able to try any cable under the sun.

Out of sheer curiosity - how does Thiel CS6 compares to B&W 802? I can pick up one used for half the price of 802.

If you guys have to choose specifically between Vandertseen 3A Signature and B&W 802

Well, the B&W of course. BUT....
...Your better bet would be a pair of Vandy 4 or V (used). Better than the B&W 802. Cheaper to drive, too. I mention these because you like the Vandy sound.

The 802 D is a nice speaker but I enjoyed it best when driven by a humongous expensive amp... so, keep in mind that the cost is not limited to the speakers price alone!

If you guys have to choose specifically between Vandertseen 3A Signature and B&W 802 (as my wallet begs me to!:)))which one would you buy?

I never heard them with the mac . I still can't see it solving the 3-5 khz region but I guess ya never know till ya try.
I will try and find a pair to demo...
In the meantime I have a torus on the way.

Budt, the amps were Mac 501s. Perfect match!

I've only heard the 802D in the shop, where the music seemed to just float free of the speakers. Though deeply impressed, I was not willing to part with $14k at the time. I was not as favorably impressed with either 803 as I found the B&W tweeter in these models attracted too much attention to itself.

However, if you're considering the 802Ds, why not consider the Quatros as well? The Quatro bass (120 Hz and under) can be tailored to the room and to taste, which can make a huge difference in how the rest of the audio spectrum is perceived by the ear.

A buddy of mine uses the McIntosh 501's that we didn't like with my Maggies, but sound absolutely SUBLIME with his B & W's

As a last ditch effort I am going to try a big kick ass power conditioner( torus) and a bigger amp( maybe a 600 watt per channel). Maybe that will wake the 802Ds up.I know 330 per channel of bryston power isn't enough.Maybe a digital amp is the answer.
What amp were used to drive the 802Ds?

I will throw my two cents in here and say that I've listened to the 802D against lots of competition and they hold their own and sound great. As you already know, all spkrs have trade-offs. The 802D's compromises are ones that I can easily live with. As for Budt's complaints, hey, they are his ears, his room, his music, his electronics and his taste. To each their own. I just don't agree with him. BTW, I recently auditioned Maggie 20.1s at Audio Connection and I must concur. John really seems to know his stuff. Good luck. Both are very good choices.

Call John Rutan at Audio Connection who is a dealer in Verona, New Jersey. John carries both lines and I think is the largest Vandy dealer in the US. He is an excellent person and will give you the best advice for your equipment. John knows how to mate and match components to get the best out of both speakers. You simply cannot go by most opinions here because John can get the best out of each speaker line. His number is 973.239.1799. I am no way affiliated with the store and John.

http://www.audioconnect.com/

Philjolet, my goal is to choose. I allready like both brands, the sound very different but both great in their own way.

Antonkk,

I was thinking you made up your mind to like the B&W but I guess that is already established.

Sorry I lost track of the goal....

Would I start the thread if I allready have made up my mind? No. Dynamics are of course important to me, but it was my main concern with Vandies, not B&W.

All Bowers have a shy bottom end and yet one of the best midranges.
Vandy's have enough resolution on that ballpark but the bass response is extremely slow compare to the speakers of the same class.
If you plan on Bowers and need more bass I would suggest a sub or a couple.