I currently own the ARC Ref 3. I know its early, but I was wondering if anyone has had the opportunity to do a comparison of the new ARC Ref 5 compared to the ARC Ref 3 and if so, what are the sonic differences that you heard. Any input would be helpful. Thanks
I was contacted by someone who saw this thread whom actually in the past bought amps from me and just happens this person bought a Ref5 which I'm told by him is well broken-in and was nice enough to lend to me so it has been in my system since late yesterday, thank you!
I have not had much time to listen as of yet (aprox 3 hours) but here are some of my initial thoughts so far.
I will say that there are differences, what I did notice after listening to a few pcs of music that I'm familiar with is I heard immediately lower floor noise, blacker back ground and we all know what that does, micro and micro-dynamics have improved which is nice, transients seem to be quicker also, midrange difference are more pronounced, with a bottom end I prefer which appears cleaner and lower allowing you hear and feel the actual bass notes specially on stand up bass it's allot better. I also noticed putting your hand over top of the unit which in my set-up is siting between shelves and appears not to throw off as much heat which really wasn't all that much with the Ref3 or an issue any ways but just a note of what I'm noticing. Most likely because of how the layout of tubes are now even though the actual tubes and number of tubes have not changed, just spaced out do to the board configuration being different but I'm sure this will assist in providing a longer life span.
These are my own opinions and in my own set-up.
I will have the pre for the weekend so I will no more, that being said back to listening and I'll report later of my over all findings.
Well Dev, this is a most interesting development indeed. For many of us who have been listening and participating in this thread with the attendant emotional fluctuations, re-evaluated cost/enjoyment ratios and personal reflections on what it all means anyway, now are no doubt quietly and patiently waiting for the latest report. Well, I am anyway :)
Dev, you just wrote it much better than me! But I got a similar improvement in my ARC system CD8 + Ref5 moving it to a Finite Element Pagode Master Reference rack. This rack is unhappily very expensive, but was one improvement I could hear! Curiously, at that time I also owned a Dartzeel preamp that was much less sensitive to placing.
Micro, what was the change contributed by the ref5 before you moved to a new rack? I wonder if the rack then should be mated to the the REF5 to further improve it?
I bought the Pagode rack some years ago when I still had the Ref3 and CD7. I had an old Target that was solid and had a special decoupled upper shelf for the turntable that I used for the CD7, but I was astonished with difference when I moved the system - everything become more solid and bass become quicker, voices were more defined and articulate, becoming more dramatic. After a few months I returned to the old rack to try another system in the Pagode and it was a big step back - some parts of the music seemed blurred.
I had the Ref 3 and compared it side by side with the MBL 6010D which I kept and I sold the Ref. When I moved from tube to Spectron power amps, the Ref 3 was not a good match and the MBL was much better. Not a question of the Ref 3 being inferior, but I suspect the impedance made the difference and the MBL was more natural and controlled proving yet again the importance of system synergy in the real world.
While I am very impressed with the 6010, I would like to try the Ref 5, but not with my Spectrons. In the appropriately matched system the Ref preamps are as good as it gets and I am sure the Ref 5 will offer state of the art performance for a 'reasonable' high end price and quality dealer back up. If you like the ARC house sound, which has a definable character, I am not sure I would need to go from a 3 to a 5 as I am sure the changes are incremental.
Probably around this time replacement of 610T (to match up Ref.5) is already lurking on the horizon somewhere at ARC.. Anybody anything yet? Anyone remembered the time lapse in between release of Ref.3 and 610T? Would be great if ARC could improve their line of Reference amps in similar fashion and magnitude as they did with the pre.
Interesting question. I am happy with my REF210s however maybe there are silver handles on the horizon as one of the upgrades. A little beefier fan/cooling configuration would be a nice upgrade. Circuit boards are already horizontal, so no upgrade there...
I assume the comparisons made till now are based on the original ARC tube configuration. I know that exchange of the ARC tubes by NOS tubes has also a remarkable impact. Has anybody had a chance to compare REF5 and REF3 with "tungsol blackplate" and the 6H30 DR's "diamonds". Next question of course will be what happens if you change the original ARC tubes in the REF5 with the same NOS tubes!
Personally, I was never that motivated to spend time rolling tubes. I did it once with a PH3SE and sure, the Mullard NOS tubes I used did seem to improve things, etc. etc. I spent time analyzing the differences and how to quantify and qualify them in words. To me, tube rolling is an ancillary swirl, as it were. I started wondering if I was actually getting unused NOS tubes, and if they were worth the premium $. It all seemed like time taken away from simply enjoying the music.
AR uses tubes they can easily get. I am inclined to conclude that that's good enough for me. All that said, however, if someone were to take the time to make the comparisons and had a strong recommendation, I would be inclined to listen up and maybe consider for the next tube replacement. I welcome others' points of view and perspective.
Both set-ups at RMAF 2009 with Ref 5 were fantastic. One with Vandersteen Model 7 and the other with the Wilson Sashas. Both had a complete stack of Audio Research Reference components: CD8, Ref 5, Ref 2 Phono, and Ref 110 amp.
I agree with Sdrenslow that the ARC gear sounded good - especially on the Vandys. I am not a fan of the ARC Ref 3 (even with Vandy 5A), but I'm guessing the Ref5 is better since I loved the sound at the show.
just to throw some more mud in the water. I decided to purchase a slightly used Ref 3 over a Ref 5 after a head to head comparison in my home system (Ref 210s, Vandersteen 5As, Ref Phono, Oracle turntable, etc.). I was previously using a Ref 2 Mk 1 so the step to a Ref 3 was quite revolutionary (with my latest system). note: the Ref 2 MkI mated really well with my older VT-100 MkII of the same era and has convinced my that importance of system synergy in that context... Perhaps that initial impression was enough to convince me that the Ref 3 was good enough. I did hear a "smoother" top end with the Ref 5 on some recordings, but by and large the differences were not significant enough for me to purchase the Ref 5 at this time. I do want to audition the Ref Phono2 at some time, which many have told me provides a more significant performance jump over the Ref Phono (as compared to a Ref 5 / Ref 3). In the end, it comes down to personal preference as many have said and what value one places on what one hears in their particular system.
the comparison was very interesting and was done in a blind text method, the only difference being switching out pre-amps, this was done in my own set-up and I had five other individuals to assist over a four day time period and then we all met on the last day listened again.
We all agree that there are differences between them, after listing we discussed what we heard and did we feel they were substantial, jaw dropping, a nite and day difference, enough to justify the upgrade difference financially?
When we refer to this specific upgrade, we are referring to the out of pocket money currently, what a Ref3 is fetching now on the market along with buying a Ref5 for and doing the comparison as we did.
I believe it will just come down to a personal preference but non of us felt it was.
Looking at what a Ref3 is fetching now a days and then looking at the additional out of pocket money to move to a Ref5 the Ref3 is a real sweet deal, if the cost difference was closer say under $2K then that would assist making it a lot easier to justify, at least for me so if anyone can assist send me a personal message. I will say three out of the five who heard them in my set-up did not feel so and said they would be looking else where possibly the Ref Phono2 instead suggesting better to put your monies there. The other two preferred my MBL 6010D pre so go figure and that's what makes this hobby so interesting.
In the end we all got to have some laughs, share some stories, drink and eat, I got some more music pce names so it was all good.
Well, I had a chance to do an A/B comparison between the ARC Ref. 3, (which my friend has had in his system for over a year), and the ARC Ref. 5, (which a friend of his lent to him, as he was going to sell it, as the synergy between the Ref. 5 and his system was just not there apparently). My friend's system is pretty neutral, being neither warm sounding or analytical. (It is the best system I have ever heard, and the one I try to emulate with my own system.) I should also point out that he used balanced cables, (Jena Labs Pathfinders), for the inputs, and Nordost Valhalla cables for the speakers.
We listened to various music, from rock (including the new 45 rpm version of Tull's Aqualung, which is fantastic, if you have not heard it yet), to folk, (Kingston Trio), to jazz, (Webster's Soulville), to Classical (various pieces, but mostly violin concertos, which was the majority of what we listened to). We listened to this via his complete Brinkmann analog setup, (EMT cartridge, 10.5 arm and balance table). We did not listen to any digital, (either CD or SACD), as we both prefer the sound of analog.
Well, to be short and sweet, the Ref. 3 is very close to the Ref. 5 to my ears. (My friend agrees, but he felt there was more of a difference than I did, I think. Enough that he is probably going to buy the Ref. 5 from his friend, and sell his Ref. 3.) I could hear that there was a bit deeper and quicker bass response from the Ref. 5. This was fairly noticeable, but it was not a huge difference. I think if we had not done a direct A/B comparison, (i.e. if I had heard it one day and then the other the next day), I might not have picked up on it. That was the biggest difference, IMHO. (And for my friend that was enough in itself, because he feels his system is just slightly bass shy. I disagree, but it's his system, so what do I know?!)
In addition, there were some other minor differences, such as the initial impact of piano keys being just slightly faster on the Ref. 5. I also noticed that there was a bit more ambiance from the Ref. 5, (i.e. room echoes from the concert hall). But IMHO, these were very small differences.
I should also point out that the Ref. 5 does benefit, (albeit very slightly), from being placed upon a inert shelf. My friend has a Gran Prix Monaco shelving system. However, he has only one Carbon Fiber shelf, (the rest are acrylic). When the Ref. 3 was in its usual spot on this carbon fiber shelf, it sounded much closer to the Ref. 5 than when it was on the acrylic shelf and the Ref. 5 was on the carbon fiber shelf. (Yeah, go figure that it would make that much of a difference, huh?! But it did.)
So, if you were to ask me, is it worth the additional cost to upgrade from the Ref. 3 to the Ref. 5? I would say "No". My reasoning is that I am broke, and the additional cost is beyond my reach. (The price of a used Ref. 3 is about $5K, and the price of a used Ref. 5 is about $7K, or about 40% more.) The Ref. 3 is a very fine preamp, and much better than its predecessors the Ref. 1 and Ref. 2, and it is within spitting distance of the Ref. 5. I would be very happy to have the Ref. 3 in my system. And, if I were not broke, I would gladly buy my friend's Ref. 3, if, and/or when, he sells it.
But if you ask my friend, he would say "Yes", it is worth it. His reasoning is that it does indeed make a positive difference, and therefore, it is worth it. And given his system, I can easily see his logic, and would agree with it. Since his friend bought it used here on Audiogon, the cost to upgrade will probably be somewhere between $1,500-$2,000, which while a significant sum of money, does provide for a definite improvement, albeit a small one. And given his incredible system, improvements are inherently small, and truly expensive, so to normally get that much improvement, that sum of money is money well spent.
Anyway, those are my two cents worth, so take from it what you will.
. I have no interest in auditioning the Ref5. If I hear it and like it, I won't be able to sleep until I get one. So, I'll save myself the stress and sleep and stick with the Ref3. I'm still thrilled with and in love with the Ref3. .
say I want to tube roll the stock 6550c tube. I have a Tung Sol 6550, is it okay if I drop that in? I just want to make sure because I don't know what 6550c means in comparison to 6550. Also, there hasn't been any post, buzz or reviews on this preamp lately. Any owner impressions to add?
Compared to my old Ref 3 it has tighter bass and plays complex demanding passages more cleanly. I guess I would call it more " precise". To me it was worth it but some might prefer the Ref 3's darker character. - Jim
Kclone - I assume you mean original US-made Tung Sol 6550s, which run fine in ARC power supplies. I also think they sound better there than current Russian tubes do. The original Tung Sol puts out a bit less power than a 6550A or 6550C (35 watts as opposed to 42, I believe), but I don't think there is much question that they were the best sounding 6550's ever made.
yeah, I have the American version. I originally bought them for extra tube for a Cayin KT 88 (was using 6550s in place of the 88s). Okay, then I will drop the Tung Sol in the ARC REF 5. Thanks for the helpful response.
I too am a happy owner of the Ref 3 preamp, but I also intend to wait for the Ref 7 preamp which will undoubtedly be audibly superior to the not-yet-released Ref 6 preamp. :)
could you tell me if we can burn the REF 5 without turning on the REF 110 in order to have the 600 hours on counter and improuve the best sound the REF 5 can do ?
Simply turn on the ref 5, connect a source and play music, the ref 110 does not have to be on. I have been told that each source input has a break-in period, so I would start with the source input you most often critically listen to.
I am totally enjoying my REF 5 and at 700 hrs, the sound is magical.
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