Audio Research Ref 5 and Krell amps

Flex2,

Do you have any observations about the Elrods vs. the Shunyatas?

I was just here where you are: Krell MXC350 monos

purchased a pre-owned AR Ref5. Back to back comparison to the Krell HTS 7.1. Took some listening. The Wilson WP7 have had a hard, bright, edge to the high range. Ref 5 removed that edge. Some music was fatiguing and I could not put my finger on why. the highs now are humm buttery maybe, more musical, more organic less harsh. in any event the sound has improved although back to back was required. Bass however was a very pleasant surprise. The krell was muddy (dare I say that about krell) as compared. the Ref 5 brought a lot more punch and very good low hertz definition. Some tracks on Stanley Clark Bass Days no longer have a muddy thump but now have a very discernible pluck of the bass , not there before. Is the Ref5 a huge change, no, is it worth the dollar upgrade, to me yes ( my wife, no). However I can now listen without the fatigue and that makes it worth the investment to me. I agree with the previous post, a bought a 20 % improvement

Boisehomes, I tried an LS26 with my Krell FPB400cx, running 10T's. It replaced a VTL tube pre at the bottom of the VTL line. It was very disappointing. The mid's were very nice, but the deep low end that 10T's are capable of disappeared. Really anemic. I sold it and got a Krell KCT. The bottom end came back in spades, and it's really smooth, though I'll admit I lost some midrange magic. I'm thinking that a Ref5 might do the trick to get both, but that budget's a little ways off.

Transparent Ref XL MM2 balanced IC and single run speaker wires.

I use Audioquest Sky IC and Everest SC.

Sfstereo and Kennyt, what IC and SC are you guys using with your Krells?

Yes, with the 600e's!

Kenny,

Are you still enjoying the Krell 403e? I picked one up a couple of weeks ago as well. It's a very good sounding amp but it sure puts out lots of heat. It's has smoother and fuller sound than my old FPB 450MCX.

Did you consider replacing the 403e?

Tyler, I posted this thread in another OP, but thought I would repeat it here.

"I am unsure about getting my Ref 5 upgraded. I'm concerned the SE may be way out of balance with the rest of my system. Alternatively, if I was to drop the bucks of an SE upgrdae (whatever it is) into my system, I might do better waiting to change out my PH-7.

"Just not sure?? Also not sure how long ARC will do the SE upgrade. Maybe for the indefinte future??? Maybe not??

"I'm standing pat on my amp. It's too close to the Ref 110 to change it out. If I change out the amp, IMO, it only makes sense to wait for Ref 150s to hit the pre-owned market.

"At this point, IMO, digital "redbook" CD (actual discs) is generally just fair, so I'm not motivated to change out my CD-7 CDP. Think I'd rather get a DAC 8 instead.

Any thoughts??"

Thanks.

BTW, my system description is listed on A'gon.

Thanks Tylercoupe. Nice summary.

Nice system Tyler!

I have mine all run from a Harmony 890 remote so when I want 2-channel I simply ask for that setup and only my two channel gear turns on (except for the EMM Labs which doesn't have remote power on!?!?)

I agree with you that Wilson's are efficient but they really don't act that way! I run mine off 400 WPC Krell Evo 403e and almost went to the 600e's but talked myself out of it, they like power and need an amp stable into less than 2 Ohm loads so needs loads of current.

I bet the ARC 250s work very well with them!

4blue

I bought the Ref 150 in July at the same time as the Sashas and had them in the same system unitl November. The system is a hybrid 2Ch/HT system with Wilsons throughout. I love the 150 and at normal listening levels...I feel its very close to the 250s. The 250s are more defined and controlled in the lower registers...say Charles Mingus plucking the bass has more definition and speed...with just the right amount of reverb... and provide a slightly wider and more transparent soundstage at normal listening levels. Female vocals/violin/sax have a magic in this region on both amps that I have found SS amps just can't compete with. The 150s would play loud, the Sashas are faily efficient...but the 250's maintain composure at higher levels that the 150 can't compete with. At higher levels, the soundstage of the 150s start to compress and the bass articulation does start to muddy just a bit...this is all relative. I would take the 150s over almost any SS amp...and replaced a very good ML335 with them...but the 250s seem to be the best fit for this system. The 150 is moved to my cabin and will be mated with a Ref5SE and Wilson Duettes...I love this combo...it replaced a Ref2mk2 and VS 115...and is perfect for nearfield listening. I listen mainly to jazz and small scale classical.

Kenny,

Enjoy your system...I think our system structures are remarkably similiar. I have a hybrid system similiar to yours which does double duty as HT/2 channel system. I have an Ayre KX-R in between the Classe ST-SSP and the ARC Ref 250s...When the SSP turns on a HT source...the Ayre and 250s trigger on as well with Ayre in passthrough mode...Rest of HT is 2 JL212s, Wilson Center 3 and Surrounds 2 powered by DS450M(C3) and DS225(S2).The HT sounds wonderful using an Ayre DX5.

But when I want to listen to my Naim HDX server/DAC8 or LP12SE/Phono2SE...I just turn on the Ayre and 250s manually...and listen to a reasonably good 2 channel system. All three soucres flow balances through the Ayre

Easy for family to use and satisfies me for critical listening. I think you found a similiar solution with your setup.

here are some pics of how my setup turned out...also shows my study system based on Stax stats and Woo audio energizer...go to my gallery

http://gallery.me.com/npdomino/100048

Ture Dat Tyler!

FWIW I use Transparent Ref XL in my rig, love their cables!

Hi Tylercoupe:
I have Ref 150 and Sashas and am quite happy with the combo. But as you know the Sashas are difficult to drive in the mid- upper bass/low midrange between the impedance and negative phase angle. I'd like more thrust there but at reasonable cost.
When I had WP 7s and tried Ref 110s and 210s. I found, as you did with Ref 150 vs 250, that the lower powered model came close enough that I stuck with the Ref 110s. The biggest differences I found were a greater sense of dimension and ease with Ref 210s. I did not find the dynamics on the 210s to be more than 10% better than the 110s. Have you tried both amps with Sashas? Can you quantify the differences esp in the mid/upper bass?

Cool...it's great to find a component that really works in your system

I will let the SE break-in some and then bring the AE over to compare. I won't be able to replicate your experience as I will use Ref 250 monos for the "cage match" and I think you use a 3 channel Evo. I use Transparent Ultra throughout... But speakers will be the same...Sasha right...wonderful speaker. I expect differences but not dramatic...much like the improvements the 250s provided over the 150...but will report what I hear.

Bottom line is you are happy regardless of whether 5SE is 95 or 99% of AE...all three of these preamps are great. And at this level we discuss relative changes...and the price people are willing to pay for those is highly dependent on individual preference...and there is no right answer...just some answers cost more than others. :)

Tyler,

The difference went far beyond the AE being more neutral. The attack was so much more dynamic it was amazing, I agree I never thought I'd use the word thin to describe the Ref 5 which was my own personal reference for a few years but compared to the AE? Hate to say it but it is!

Smoff

I am not familiar with your speakers or amps so tough to make a call. What I can say is that GNSC makes real improvements and will typically make improvements that ARC could not at it's product design price points. Sadly, Steve and ARC no longer play nicely together so upgrades no longer available. I have a ref 2 mk2 and VS115 both upgraded by GNSC and it is a great combo. I am replacing w/ref150 and 5SE. But the vs115 w/GNSC was good enough to not lose out to the Ref110. And I am not willing to sell these units

I expect the Older Ref amps (210/110) may sound better than your older classics...but if you are enjoying them now...I would not jump to 210...watch and wait for a 150.. If the 120s give you enough power now...that should be perfect amp...the Ref 3 can continue to be control...I imagine your system sounds great now...a little more classic ARC...which isn't bad...enjoy while you wait.

Kenny

I would not ever use the word thin with ARC Ref series. I do agree that a lot of the improvement you hear is due to AE being so neutral that it gets out of the way and just presents the performance...no signature at all. The AE is a great preamp...one of the best. I still believe the changes to the Ref5 SE will take the 5 very close to that level. I will wait and listen to both and then provide my findings. Enjoy your AE....it's a special component.

Tylercoupe,

I don't know I would agree that the Ref 5 is any more than 80% of the 40th AE. I had them both for a while and when swapping back in the Ref 5 the sound compared to the AE was thin (something I never thought I'd say about the Ref 5!) and had far less speed, macro and micro dynamics were no contest, the AE blew away the Ref 5, the background was quieter too. In fact, while the AE definitely has better bass control, that was the one aspect that was least significant in my system.

While I am sure the better value likely lies in the Ref 5 SE (especially as you can't buy and AE anymore!), their is no way it comes that close to the 40th AE!

Hi Tylercoupe. I have a REF3 LE and REF Phono 2 which had been "modded" by Steve Huntley (GNSC) when i got them new from the Dealer. Looking at some of the pictures from the link above shows stunning similarities between my modded units and those in the SE models. The main differences, at first glance, are those teflon coupling caps that i do not have in my 2 units although several Caddock resistors have been installed in key signal path and additional Black Gate caps in the power supply mounted on the side rail the same way ARC has done it.

I'm intrigued about your assessment of the REF 150 and 250's though. I currently have a pair of Classic 120's (circa 1990) also modded by GNSC. As good as they are, I am considering replacing those with the 150 or a pair of 250's.
Truthfully, i would have to take a second mortgage on my house to afford the 250's at $26K but could however manage the 150 or a used pair of 210's with KT120's.
My speakers are Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation.

Happy listening and Happy New Year !!
Sly.

I have access to Ref 40 and just picked up Ref5SE...

When listening to 40 v 5(non SE). I would say the 5 got about 80-85% of the 40...but was weaker primarily in lower register definition and transparency...the 40 just has very little signature. I expect the SE will change this and get closer to 95-98% of 40 for half the cost.

Need my SE to break in but will report in a few months...I don't expect the SE to top 40 but it will be a hifi bargain

FWIW...I think Ref 150 is hifi amp bargain...I have both 150 and 250s...and while 250 is better primarily in low end articulation and at higher volumes...there is a range in which the 150 is almost there for a lot less...and that's a lot of extra $$$$ for music

Doogie,

Obviously I wouldn't! I was just curious what the price difference was and glad I sold my Ref 5 before the SE upgrade came out! I doubt I will ever need another preamp with the 40th AE, it truly SMOKES the Ref 5 and I loved the Ref 5 when I got it!

I A-B'd them and gave the warm up advantage to the Ref 5 (1,200 hours on it and 4 hours playing time to warm up) v the 40th AE (550 hours and 30 minutes warm up) Their was no comparison, the 40th had EVERYTHING better! Micro and macro dynamics as well as a quieter background and better bass control. The shear speed of the 40th AE over the Ref 5 was unbelievable.

Why would you buy the Ref5SE when you already have the Anniversary? ;)

I already have the 40th AE so it had to go anyway.....

The loss from selling the Ref5 may be larger than just topping up for the upgrade, no?

That seems pretty fair, I like that they use the 40th AE faceplate on the SE model (I always disliked the recessed button)

Also makes me glad I just recently sold me Ref 5 before the SE version came out!!!

~13k as compared to ~12k for non-SE version

If the difference in Ref5 SE version is anything like what I am hearing from the Ref phono2 SE...it's the best 1k I've spent.

Kenny,

The price increased by $1k to $13K. I think the increase was reasonable.

~13k as compared to ~12k for non-SE version

If the difference in Ref5 SE version is anything like what I am hearing from the Ref phono2 SE...it's the best 1k I've spent.

What was the cost of the SE version v the standard Ref 5???

My understanding is upgrades will very likely be available...but no official word on price or availability

I received the ref phono 2 SE 3 weeks ago and my Ref 5 SE shows up on Tuesday. When I ordered both about 6 weeks ago...my dealer called me back and said the SE was available...but not officially announced. Seemed like a no brainer.

I also have Ayre KX-R...

The Ayre is paired with Sasha's and Ref 250s...the Phono 2 SE/SME 20/3 is one of the sources in that system along with Naim HDX/ARC DAC8. The Ref5 SE will replace Ref 2 in my cabin...paired with Ref150/Duettes...looking forward to putting in system. ARC has really hit it out of the park this year.

I think there is a big demand for the parts so ARC is probably juggling demand for new orders vs factory refits (which probably includes the buttons and from face plate).

Best to book your order in.

In my case, my dealer just made too hard an offer to resist swapping for a new unit ;)

Doggiehowser and Sfstereo, just e mailed a local ARC dealer in Philly land. He confirmed that ARC is indeed releasing a new Ref 5 SE version. The announcement could come out at any time. He did not know whether the legacy Ref- 5 could be upgraded. He said (1) the front changed - round buttons instead of square button, insides -- (2) more muscular power supply -- new verticle mounted board with additional 8-12 power caps; and (3) teflon coupler caps.

The dealer said that he has not heard the new 5 SE yet for himself, but reported that the buzz in dealerland is get ready for something special.

Does anyone know if the legacy 5s can be factory upgraded? I don't care about the cosmetic changes to the front panel and round button part, just the guts.

Kenny,

You are correct. There is no way all the parts from 40AE can fit into a single chassis. The SE has similar Teflon caps used in the AE and has an additional board with lots of electrolytic caps.

I have not heard the AE but the SE won't top the AE. I think it just slightly narrows the gap between the ref5 and the AE.

Here's a link

http://artsexcellence-audioresearch.blogspot.com/2011/12/audio-research-reference-5-se.html

Dealers are taking orders.

Kenny, the website shows a Reference Power 250 amp but clicking on it leads you to a totally different product ;)

And there's no mention of the 250 anywhere and that's been in audio shows and also available for sale for a few months now.

There is also no mention of the Phono Reference 2 SE but that's in Absolute Sound website already.

I guess the website just isn't as up to date. I only found out about it from my local dealer who's getting just a few new units in after Christmas and he gave me the option to trade my old 5 for the new 5SE with a top up instead of shipping it back to ARC (that requires appointment and shipping back to US and I live in the Far East).

I think you have to make an appointment to get it done.

List price is 1k above the non SE model

I am very confused about this SE version you are talking about, first off, owning the 40th AE I can tell you that almost no part from the power supply of the 40th AE would or could fit into the single chassis Ref 5 (I just solid mine BTW)

ARC has nothing about this on their site and a goo ogle search reveals nothing, where did you buy this????

Sfstereo, where can I learn more about the Ref 5 SE. This is the first I heard about it. Is the upgrade done by ARC??

Ritmo,

The Ref5SE is a Ref 5 with power supply upgrades using parts from the 40th Anniverasy preamp. There are also a few cosmetic changes.

Ref 5 SE?

Well Merry Christmas to you Sfstereo! Wait until you have ~650 hours on it, that seems to be where it fully settles in and then the Ref 5 sounds amazing!

I got my Christmas gift a few day early. Yes, my ARC REF 5SE had finally arrived. It has only a few hours but it sounds fantastic. It has all the advantages of SS - deep bass, extended highs and very low background noise but it also has great mids/vocals and deep soundstage of tubes.

I have compared it to a borrowed Ayre KXR preamp and to my surprise, I preferred the REF 5. That is saying a lot considering how good the KXR is. The REF 5 will sound even better as it accumulates more hours.

First thing out of the box, call VPi and review with Mike or Harry you problem and path forward plann to so. If they advised you that combine impedance is too low, thereby putting too heavy a load on the pre, they may give you some practical solutions. In my case, I reached out to To Tutay, who in turn built me a custom impedance buggers.

Bifwynne how do you remedy this? I will be running a pair of subs for sure?

Boisehomes, just checked the specs on the LS 26. Seems like most (maybe all) ARC preamps and line stages (including the LS 26) should not have their main outputs loaded with less than 20K Ohms. If you load both output mains, the formula for computing combined impedance is L1 x L2/(L1 + L2). So, e.g., if Main 1 is used for an amp with an input impedance of 300K Ohms and Main 2 is used for a self powered subwoofer with an input impedance of 20K Ohms, the combined impedance would be 18.75K Ohms -- too low.

Thanks Bifwynne. I have not thought about overload! If I have any problems I will send you an email!

Troy

Boisehomes, congradulations on the LS26 and best of luck with it. Not quite sure how you intend to load its main outputs, but please check my posts on this issue. In my case, I loaded my Ref 3 main output #1 with my ARC VS-115 and main #2 with my self powered sub. The rest of the story is in my posts. If you "overload" the LS26, you may experience best roll-off as well as other sonic degradations. If you think this is an issue, send me an e mail and I will explain how to solve it.

Cheers