I am very familiar with ARC and PrimaLuna equipment and own both. ARC is absolutely top of the line equipment PrimaLuna is good budget equipment. From reading about Ayon… they sound to be a top notch company. For repairs and the like they have an address in Scottsdale Arizona, but they are an Austrian company. The ARC factory is in Minnesota.
Clearly Ayon and ARC are both top tier companies. ARC will have much greater recognition in the US, it has fantastic service and repairs much of their stuff decades old, offers upgrades.
I would listen to both and see which one you like better. They are both top tier companies. I would definitely give the nod to ARC if it is nearly a tie in the sound you want. I own all ARC gear… so, that is where I am coming from.
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I am familiar with primaluna and Ayon. I have an Ayon amp now, I would say the sound of ayon is clean, defined, and crisp with great soundstage. I would put it a level above Primaluna.
Jerry
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I am a PrimaLuna owner for 3 1/2 years. You did not state how much money you wanted to spend. I have used tube amplification for decades and the ease of use provided by prima Luna is truly incredible. ARC is a top-notch brand with terrific resale value and sound quality. ARC will definitely provide a more refined musical presentation than prima Luna, which is very good. It satisfies me and I have had much more expensive tubed amplification in the past. Ayon I am not familiar with except they like chrome in their designs which really is offputting to me.
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@ghdprentice thank you very much for very direct answer- very helpful.
I’d like to learn more about ARC. Is there a link that I could learn about their previous history models and price in year 2010-ish? Or perhaps, you could help with a recommendation for my Sonus Faber Elipsa SE, 91dB?
My local dealer recommended the current model ARC Ref 80. Very beautiful unit. Thanks again.
@carlsbad Very direct answer as well and thank you.
May I ask what Ayon model and how long do you have it? And for what speakers?
Do you think Ayon Spirit ($6k) can drive my speakers listed above?
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I have the Ayon Spark Delta which is a 35wpc SET with dual 6c33Cs. My speakers are 96dB and it is way more than I need, in fact I'm currently listening to a 6 wpc SET instead. I think both the Spirit and the Spark Delta would be plenty to drive your speakers. I might be convinced to sell the Ayon so PM me if you're interested.
Jerry
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ARC or Ayon in my book, others do rate but are you going separates or integrated?
Would look at Unison Research and LTA also.
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@juanmanuelfangioii I prefer a stereo tube amp and not an integrated because I already have Jeff Rowland integrated Continuum S2 and love it to death. I just need a tube amp to switch back and forth for diff sound.
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Cool and both make wonderful tube amps.
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'For these Sonus Faber’s you need an amp that can almost double it’s wattage from 8ohm to 4ohm to 2ohm (eg: 100w 200w 400w) And that means amps that deliver hefty current. No tube/ Mosfet/Class D amp for these. You need big amp/s that have "bi-polar (bjt)" output stages this type of amp will do these speaker justice. As right through the bass and upper bass they are 2.5ohm, and at the low bass with 4ohms and -50degrees phase angle load (EPG), this can look like 1.5ohms to the amp.
Just a snippet from the Stereophile test results on these speakers.
"With an impedance magnitude that drops to 2.5 ohms throughout the upper bass (fig.1). There is also a punishing combination of 4 ohms magnitude and –50 ° electrical phase angle at 70Hz that will suck gobs of current from the amplifier."
http://www.stereophile.com/content/sonus-faber-cremona-elipsa-loudspeaker-measurements#bD5u0G5x4C8Jcr1R.97
Stereophile in the review above used Mark Levinson No.33, Boulder 860 and the Parasound JC1’s these are all bi-polar (bjt) output amps.'
Post written by Georgehifi few years back
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OP,
Sonus Faber, Audio Research, and Transparent interconnects are a known synergistic combination. I got there by stumbling upward over fifty years of pursuing the high end. My most consistent preamp was Audio Research. The recommendation of a Ref 80 amp is good… I currently have REF 160m mono blocks and a Reference 160m… driving my Sonus Faber Amati Traditional in triode mode… so 70 wpc. I occasionally switch out of the triode mode to double the wattage… while the difference in sound is not obvious, I switch back in a couple minutes.
But order of business is their preamps. The ARC preamps are world class, highly detailed, but warm and organic… not tubie, but with great midrange bloom. The amazing thing is the musicality with preservation of details and soundstage. I really recommend the Reference series 5 and higher. I owned a Ref 5SE for many years. I would look on line for used ARC preamps.
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www.arcdb.ws
Is a virtually complete database/catalog of all the Audio Research products.
It is not a product of the company, but an ARC fan who obviously is crazy about products.
Regards,
barts
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I've been using a Prima Luna Dialogue Premium HP for three years. The sound is different to me than what I had been used to in traditional vintage tubes. There is no high end roll off, no emphasized mid bass bloom, rather a consistent presentation through the whole spectrum. I've read that this is the modern tube sound that all manufacturers are going for but my experience is only 1970s Dyneco and Jolida before Prima Luna. After a lengthy burn in period I love it. I was using g Tekton Lore speakers but recently switched back to my old Thiel 1.5s. Very happy with the switch as the midrange is much better. But going to add a Rel sub soon. So from a synergy standpoint I can recommend Prima Luna Dialogue Premium HP at 75 watts into Thiel 1.5, larger Thiel might require more power. Speaker cables are Nordost Red Dawn. Cables are as relevant as what they connect.
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Hey @ghdprentice could you tell me a little bit more about the detail differences from ARC to Primaluna? I run Primaluna separates and I've been eyeing ARC preamps and assumed that my Dialogue Premium is on par with the ARC LS28 and improvements would have to be at the REF level? Any insights or life experience going from PL to Arc? So many people try to sell them as "close" but I don't buy it.
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While NO company has 100% great products, yet over the years (1970-2022) they have been in business, ARC has had more "wins" than most companies have had ever.
Interesting to see that their first break-through pre-amp from mid-1970’s (SP-3A1) STILL commands huge prices. I sold it when it went from $595 to $695 to $795 and could never keep them in stock. Today, on ebay, etc., they go for over $3000 and they are over 45 years old!!
Another flagship back then, the two-chassis SP-10, is still considered one of the best ever! Their new stuff is also wonderful if you can afford it.
BUT, you have to listen IN YOUR ROOM to whatever you pick and make sure it fits YOUR system. Personally, I would buy ARC EVERY TIME, but you need to know a couple of things:
1. They had some duds with their solid state stuff
2. There are some items they can no longer service. You should call them and see before you make a final decision. Their service is legendary, if expensive, but as in most things in life, you tend to get what you pay for.
Best of luck to you, and should you go with ARC electronics, have your dealer hook up a pair of Magneplaner speakers in your room and see how that combo grabs you.
Cheers!
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Having owned an ARC VT-130 for years, I recently acquired a PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Integrated. Both are wonderful devices with only slightly different and subtle (emotional) sonic differences (to my ear) which can be tweaked based on tube choice among others. Those above who discredit one because of price point should be ignored…depending on your priorities, of course. It should not be a contest to see who can spend the most. Buy what you enjoy…I suspect you’d love any of the brands you mentioned. All will reproduce recorded music beautifully.
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In military ranks:
ARC is ranked as Marshall
Ayon is ranked as General
PrimaLuna as Major
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and VAC is Supreme Commander?
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@j-wall
Primaluna gets the big stuff right. The overall tonal balance, level of detail and bass. ARC goes beyond this. It gets the sound fully fleshed out and refines all aspects. Details like cymbals become unmistakable brass instead of just sounding like the treble of cymbals. Voices take on the full lush nuances of the real artists. Bells completely change with ARC, being rendered stunningly realistically… the richness and depth can be startling. Bass notes and sounds are more multi varied and differentiated… less single thump. The background… noice floor lowers… a big deal… allowing you to fall deeper into the music. While PrimaLuna is musical… ARC takes it to a much more compelling level of emotional connection.
ARC produces fine scientific like instruments letting you discover nuances you never knew existed in the music. Over time, I continually learn more and more about how good they are.
ARC has a company sound that has been refined generation after generation with a goal of musical reproduction. As @richopp points out, they occasionally made a misstep, but overall they have marched relentlessly towards reproducing the full experience of music. The newer and most costly succeed to the greatest extent… but buying as high up the ladder. But any of them will buy you into the experience.
My audio guy gave me a book, “Making the Music Glow”, by Ken Kessler on the history of Audio Research after I bought my final piece of ARC Reference gear. It tells the story of a vision of music from it’s origin. Reading the book, I really got it. It was never about money… it was about a vision to create an believable musical experience in the home.
An ARC preamp will work great with your amp. No question. You will get an upgrade. But it will likely make you wonder what would happen if you switch to a good ARC amp. And that will get an enormous upgrade. The combination is incredible. Over f the decades, nearly by accident I ended up with all ARC gear… the synergy is incredible. For a chang I can’t conceive of changing… well maybe just upgrading as new models become available.
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Of the three, Audio Research would be my pick as best of the group.
I have owned the best of Audio Research and they would not be my first pick in the overall market
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John (nasaman) audio research all the way.
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Primaluna EVO 400 and Premiun Dialogue HP are in same league as Quicksilver V4 and Mono 120. All point to point wired and better value and reliability than ARC. Owned/Own all three.... Amps not integrated amp. VonSchweikert and Totem Speakers. Audible Illusions and First Sound Pre-amps. Just my opinion.. have Fun!
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I really like AR latest looks.
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Two years ago I upgraded from a Wyred4Sound STI-500 v2 to an Ayon Triton III Gen 4 with KT150s to power my JM Labs Mezzo Utopias. This was a huge upgrade in sound quality and sound stage.
I got to directly compare the Triton with an Audio Research VT80se. While the VT80se had a gorgeous sound, it was beaten (obviously) by the Triton in the power department. The Triton has all the detail, warmth, and loveliness of the ARC with soooooo much more power.
I then added an Audio Research Ref 6 preamp. The soundstage bloomed and became much larger than the actual listening area. The detail was incredible, though the high end could be a bit harsh at times.
The next step was to replace a Wyred4Sound essential music server and DAC 2 DSDse with an Ayon s-10ii signature. This was the upgrade that seemed the most tangible to date. The soundstage extended further in every direction, the bass intensified, detail increased, instruments became more separated, and much of the occasional harshness in the high end was rounded off. Wow. So many wows.
I loved the sound though was forced on the path of wondering how an Ayon Auris ii would affect the sound. Would there be some special kind of brand synergy with 3 components from the same brand?
Two months ago I found a great deal on an Auris ii that had been used at trade show and jumped on it. The changes were not subtle. The soundstage shrunk, seemingly like 15 feet. Though smaller, the sound seemed more dense. The midbass slam went through the roof. Guitars, violins, voices, everything seems more intense. Any harshness in the high end has totally gone away.
I’m only a couple hundred hours into the break-in process and I’m really hoping the soundstage will open up. If the Auris’s soundstage comes anywhere near the Ref 6’s, it will be a clear winner, no contest. If it doesn’t, I don’t know. The Ref 6 soundstage is so special.
I’m pretty sure I’ll hang on to the Ref 6. I wonder if the upgrade from the 6 to the 6se would add the same qualities as the Auris ii while maintaining the soundstage. The person I spoke with at ARC claimed that not only should the upgrade to the se provide that oomph I was looking for, but that it would also show a marked increase in sounstage Big claims. I’ll hopefully find out some day.
Tl;dr - Ayon is superb. So is Audio Research. I have no experience with Prima Luna.
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Guys, how about adding a new Jadis (not old) into a mix ?
How would they stand against ARC as for signature sounding and other criteria that I listed on OP?
I could consider Jadis integrated instead of Jadis stereo amp
Thanks all so very much
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@onemadchemist I haven't heard the Ayon, but I had my Ref 6 upgraded to the SE late last year. My biggest observation was that the soundstage sounds more dense. I don't know how it would compare to the Ayon in that context but it was noticeable for me in my system. I also feel the soundstage expanded even further (well outside my room's boundaries) and, not that I ever had a problem with the noise floor on the regular Ref 6, the '6SE has individual instruments emerging from the blackest background I have ever heard in my system. I'm not wanting for anything more, it's a nice (if temporary) break from the upgrade itch.
FWIW other components are ARC REF as well.
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I have Audio Research, LA audio (no longer in business), Shanling, and Cary Audio. Cary CAD is 60 watts pure class A stereo tube amplifier and I personally like it the best of my tube tube amps. I thought about upgrading to another tube amplifier (Ayon Audio, Allnic Audio, or Atma Sphere) all class A amplifiers, but not sure it's worth the money.
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