Hi. My name is Juan. I'm from Spain. Sorry for my horrible english...
It´s a pleasure to be on the Audiogon community.
Many months searching webs, forums, shows, videos, "expert" opinions, "commercial" opinions, sellers with "interests", sellers "without any interest"... Hi-Fi world is a long trip, a difficult trip with "shine" products and (at least) a five digit price... A jungle for rich men. A paradise for the new economies. Another "economic bubble"....
If you are a person like me, with little knowledge, it´s easy to be scared...
I'm looking to set up a hi-fi system. I'm using Qobuz streaming service (no CD´s and no vinyls).
I like so much ATC. Is one of the few brands that have all my trust. They are a legendary brand but most important, they are a brand that goes "against" the market. They are a brand focussed on the professional market and for them the most important is the sound.
I´m really interested on the SCM150 speakers (tower version). I have exchanged some messages with the technichal department of the brand, but I would like also to hear the expert opinion of the audiogon community.
Some questions. Thanks in advance for all your recommendations:
1) How would you describe ATC sound?? For me, they have the best mid of the market. Some people call this sound as "neutral fidelity". Neutral sounds (instead of warm) it doesn´t to have to be negative. On the contrary, is a virtue to my eyes. But in your opinion, it could be exccesively analytical?? Could cause fatigue??
2) What´s your opinion about ATC bass in general and the SCM150 bass in particular??
3) Active vs passive. Most of the people (it doesn´t surprise me) seem to prefer the active version or active sound. As you know, the SCM150 can go with the P6 amplifier (it doesn´t goes in this case on the loudspeaker box). What´s your opinion about this amplificaction in particular?? What´s your opinion in general about the active version?? It is your personal preference?? (there was a nice thread about this item: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/atc-active-vs-passive). (audiotroy and lonemountain seem to know so much about this brand).
4) If I go with the active version I will need a preamplifier. You will go with Solid State instead or valves (the "particular" sound of valves could be counterrproductive with this speakers that reveal any imperfection and they are also speakers that need power)??
5) I see great combinations with Spectral pre. Some people also recommend Bricasti, Simaudio seems also to suits... I would like a pre that gives some "warm" and musical sound to compensate the neutrality of the ATC. What would be your recommendation?? Please specify brand and model. I want a nice piece at the level of the SCM150.
6) What´s your general opinion about ATC speakers?? It would be one of your first choices??
7) In the comparison with other "professional" brand as JBL Synthesis (K2 model for example) what would be your choice??
8) In the comparison with some JBL vintage models from JBL what would be your choice?? I´m talking specifically about Henrick Sound customs 4344 and 4351 (vertical version of the 4350). Any thought??
9) In the comparison with the new Klipsch Jubilee (I talked with Roy Delgado and they are supposed to be on the market at the end of the year) what would be your recommendation?? Yes, I know that are not yet on the market so no one has been able to hear them but as a horn technology and according to some other models (for example Kilspchorns) what we can expect?? Is Klipsch really at the level of ATC or the JBL´S.
Thanks so much to everyone. Your comments would be very helpful to me.
Hi Juan, welcome. You will get very many different recommendations to your post, so I will focus on answering your questions instead.I have listened to, and auditioned, the SCM 150, modified Klipschorns, and scores of JBLs including their big 3way (9900?), so I can offer anecdotal information.
1) & 6) Subjectively speaking the ATC sound is neutral, with very dynamic peaks, very "fast" sound, and very controlled and not overabundant bass & upper-bass frequencies. It is not harsh ("analytical") and it is detailed. They also can play loud enough to simulate real life conditions. Finally, they do not have a romantic, warm, etc, sound. They are fast and furious; subjectively speaking I don't find them fatiguing, I find them exciting and precise. If I had a large space, which I do not, the 150 would be on my short-list. But then, so would the big Magico, the big Gamut, the big Vivid Audio...
2) My experience is that most ATC models are slightly bash-shy compared to the competition: it is not prominent and it does not go very low. OTOH, the bass you get is very clear & controlled. The 150 is a notable exception: it *DOES* produce bass and in high amplitudes! Overall, the 150s are outstanding speakers which can fool you into thinking you are actually listening to a full Mahlerian orchestra live (or Led Zep live, etc)
3) Years ago I had the actives & later the passives for a short while at home. Passive: I powered these with a 250W / channel Class A amplififier (i.e. a 1.2kW device). The result was good, I could drive them adequately, but more power would always be useful. Given this, and if I did not already have power amps, Active would be my choice for practicality & price (top-quality amps capable of driving the 150 well are priced out of this world). The amps included in the active one were very decent and performed excellently.
4) You need a pre that is hyper detailed and, if possible, wide bandwidth: subjectively, such pres sound "fast" and the 150 are "fast" speakers (ie.e their drive units powerful magnets). So, definitely solid-state unless you can afford a CAT SL1 extreme (tubes) or similar.
5) Spectral is an excellent choice, some of their older models are good and affordable. If you go passive: pre+amp from the likes of Spectral, or Soulution, etc do the job; for a very slightly "warmer" sound, Symphonic Line, BFA, MBL.. etc.... I am only mentioning the ones I'm familiar with, there are many others.
7) Definitely ATC for home use 8) I haven't listened to the Kendrick versions. They are, however, a totally different design, with wide dispersion characteristics, especially in the mids-highs.
9) I have listened to Klipschorns extensively in the past. Compared to the 150 they will sound thin but much more generous in the bass. They produce a huge sound, just like the 150, and they do not need huge amplification -- but they will NOT play well with "3 golden watts".Based on my experience, the Klipschorns, when set-up correctly and modded, are superior for home use to most JBLs (except for the 9900?, or the model below -- even there I'm not sure). Mind you, JBL is not Harman's brand primarily destined to home use; Revel is.
Anyway, a long post, hopefully useful to you. Good luck!
Hi Juan, Before Lone Mountain Audio took over distribution and sales for ATC in the States, I was the ATC dealer in California. And I lived with Anniversary 50s in my 2 channel home system. I also had 5 SCM 100s in a home theater. So, I am intimately familiar with the ATC sound. I had a friend and colleague who was the recording engineer for the Star Trek Movie soundtrack. When I played that disc for him through my Anniversary 50s he said that it was the best he ever heard it! He recorded it at one of the world’s top studios-Skywalker Sound. And my late friend, one of the world’s top mastering engineers, Doug Sax only used ATC SCM 100s in his 2 channel studio and his 5 channel one. As you know, the top recording and mastering studios and most famous concert halls use ATC. The Disney concert hall uses about 15-20 SCM 100s all around the hall. If you want to enjoy accuracy and musicality, ATC is close to the top. Most audiophiles like to play with amplifiers so the perfectly powered ATCs don’t attract. But, about the most difficult challenge in Audio is matching amplifier with speaker. ATC takes this out of the equation. Their built in amps are the perfect match for the excellent drivers of ATC. Please see the link above for used SCM 100s. It mentions that the speakers were tested and certified by ATC in England so these look very good. And I believe that you will be able to buy them for, at least, $10K including shipping from Canada. That is, offer the fellow $8,000. I do not think they will go for $10,000. Regarding your mention of SCM 150, the 150s are a very powerful speaker and they would over power any but a very big room. Be aware of this. And a chance to buy excellent used SCM 1000s should not be missed. The 100s do not produce the bass of the 150s but the are more accurate and do not overpower a room. My strong advise is to buy those 100s in Canada. you will enjoy them a lot!
Hi Juan, Regarding a great preamp for the ATCs, the best I know is the Atma-Sphere MP-1. It is valve output with a solid state power supply. It also has one of the very best phono stages built in if you ever want to go vinyl-which is my strongest suggestion. The MP-1 is also uniquely, absolutely balanced so there is no need for expensive cables which will be long XLRs to the speakers. With other preamps you would have to spend thousands to get the proper cables. I live with the Atma MP-1 and I use $15 cables from Amazon to connect my amps. And Ralph Karsten at Atma is a true gentleman and extremely helpful to make sure your system is as good as it can be. Go to www.Atma-Sphere.com and call Ralph at 651-690-2246. And you can email me at mike@ theGreenCable.com I would be happy to help you get a system you will love for years!
If your preference is "neutral fidelity " and active you should at least give Dutch and Dutch 8c, Kii3, Adam and perhaps Genelec (which are very neutral) a listen.
Oh my god!!!! I´ve been writing a message for an hour and I lost
all the text before posting it. Let´s try it another time (hahaha).
Thanks so much gregm for your message. Really useful. It´s curious
that you talk about other options such as Magico, Gamut or Vivid Audio. Until
recently, I was seriously considering models like the Magico A5, Stenheim
Alumine (3 or 5), Legacy Audio Aeris or Rockport Aviar II. But then, one day, I
read the interview to Gregg Timbers on Positive Feedback. It was really
revealing (see: https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/greg-timbers-jbl/):
Who do you admire as a speaker designer today?
I honestly don't pay much attention to loudspeaker designers any
more. Every now and then I see something that looks cool or refreshing to me,
but mostly everything is a rehash of what has gone before and is so covered
with marketing hype that I just don't care. I am a dynamics guy and very
few loudspeakers take that into consideration, in my opinion.
How has the sound of speakers changed over the years? Many yearn
for the speakers of the past over those of today… what has changed? Distortion,
materials, focus on sound characteristics?
Speakers have generally become smoother, more 3-dimensional and
much smaller. This means that they are less dynamic on the whole and rather toy
like compared to good stuff from the 60s and 70s. Unlike electronics,
miniaturization is not a good thing with loudspeakers. There is no substitute
for size and horsepower. Nothing much has changed with the laws of physics in
the last 100 years so what it takes to make dynamic life-like sound is
unchanged. There have been some advances in magnet materials and a bunch of
progress in adhesives but not much else. The cost of a 70s system in today's
economy would be considered unaffordable and the system would be deemed
unnecessarily huge. The large highly efficient systems of old came at a time
when 15 – 30 watts of power was the norm. Today's stuff would choke on those
amplifiers. Now that power is cheap, size and efficiency has been thrown out
the window because you can always apply more power. Unfortunately, more power
does not make up for lack of efficiency. Today's speakers range between 0.1% to
maybe 0.5% in efficiency. (On a good day) 60s and 70s stuff was more like 1% to
10%. With most of the losses gong to heat, turning up the power on a small
system with small voice coils and poor heat management is definitely not
equivalent to a large high efficient speaker.
It is true that the response of many of the old systems was a bit
ragged and generally less attention was put in the crossover networks because
simplicity generally means higher through-put. However, the big Altec's, JBL's,
Klipsch's and Tannoys of the day would still fair well today with a little modernization
of the enclosures and crossovers.
Today's multi-channel home theater setups let a bunch of small toy
loudspeakers and a sub or two sound pretty big and impressive to the average
Joe. I think speakers have mostly become a commodity and small size and price
are what counts the most now. The few high-end brands left are struggling for
market share in this age of ear buds.
In
summary, “size matters” and physics is physics”. So after that, I focus my
interest on speakers with big woofers (15 and 18 inches) and brands like JBL Synthesis
(model K2 S9900), vintage models (from JBL or Altec), Tannoy, PMC and, of
course, ATC. Legendary brands with models that in some cases seem to be more for
the profesional market, where the design
is not important and the only concern is
THE SOUND. Just the opposite to the “minimalistic” designs that are norm or tendecy nowadays on the high-end market.
I
know that the next question is going to be controversial, but I must do it: Do
you think that “size matters” and new designs are not worthy in terms of sound quality
and capabilities??
As
you can see after reading my posts, I´m not closed to any option (hahaha). What
I´m looking for?? A dynamic sound with a great holographic scene; the sensation
of being part of the music and not only
the sensation of hearing music. Feel that the speakers disappear and you are in
the live concert. I´m open to any suggestion…
Yes,
maybe they are speakers on the high-end very capables but according to the price
of the ATC SCM150, how much you must pay on the high-end to have a “similar”
experience?? I think that a lot more.
Talking
about the Kenrick Sound JBL custom models. Yes, gregm, I´m agree with you that in
comparison with ATC, they are a totally different design. You mention they have
wide dispersion characteristics. It is said that wide dispersion speakers sound
more natural and direct and that the sound is easy to listen too and relaxing
as opposed to the feeling you get with narrow dispersion spekers. What´s your opinion
about this and which design (wide vs narrow) is your personal choice??
Let´s
go now with Klipsch… To me Klipsch is the more controversial brand. People
seems to love it or hate it. It´s a real curious brand. Some audiophiles with
many speakers behind them, said that is an “end game” speaker. They talked
about an oustanding capability to create an holographic scene in a way no other
speaker on the market (including six-figure price speakers) can do. An
inmersive sensation of being in the the live concert. In opposition, other
people think that the sound it´s not pure (no neutral Fidelity) and also the
sound is “nasal” (horn technolgy). Maybe having low profile speakers doesn´t
help the general consideration of their Heritage line. Also “economical” prices
on the top models, in comparison with the high-end market, doesn´t help… I
don´t know. I´m really confused with this brand. I´m agree with ozzy62 that
Klipschorns and Jubilees “are two different animals”, but I have dared to make
this comparison because: the new Jubilees are a mystery until the end of the
year and the only actual model (old Jubilees are not a reference) “comparable”
is the Klipschorn. What we can expect about the new Jubilees?? What´s the
general opinion about Klipsch?? Is on the same league as ATC, JBL or others in
your opinion?? They are “end game” speakers in your opinion??
At
last, thanks mglik for your comment. Very, very interesting everything you said
about your personal (and profesional) experience with ATC. Really useful.
Any
comments, suggestions or recommendations
of these brands and models or others would be appreciated. Thanks so much and sorry for my horrible english. I hope everyone understand me more or less.
As I read your posts, it seems to me that you would prefer an ATC and you are looking for validation and support that this would be a good choice. Perhaps I’m mistaken.I love the ATC signature sound, even though I have not heard the big ones that you are thinking about. I think if that sound suits you, there won’t be one that you like more. It’s difficult for me to imagine someone disliking a big ATC speaker, in fact.
Regarding the listed ASL100s -It is unclear whether since they were originally sold in London, are they 220V or 110V? Also, the seller says that ATC replaced the 'power units' - although it is unclear if that is the amp(s) or speaker/driver units. Agree with the comment that these speakers define the term ruthlessly revealing; for some they will be a little bit "too much truth" and have you running for the exits.
Do
you think that “size matters” and new designs are not worthy in terms of sound quality
and capabilities??
Yes, size matters definitely when you want to have a big sound -- rather than simulate big sound. Case in point: I now have small speakers and they can only produce a thumbnail of a Mahlerian orch -- a good thumbnail, but small nonetheless. The ATC 150 or the Horns offer a more realistic reproduction of the scale of the orchestra. Many new designs are excellent. The problem is they are outrageously expensive. As you note:
according to the price
of the ATC SCM150, how much you must pay on the high-end to have a “similar”
experience?? I think that a lot more.
I agree. The added advantage of ATC is the active model, which is seriously cheaper than buying passive + commensurate amplification!
Vintage, '70s sound is also less focused on high frequency extension (i.e. speed) as contemporary designs -- there was no home theatre back then!
general opinion about Klipsch?? Is on the same league as ATC, JBL or others in
your opinion?? They are “end game” speakers in your opinion??
IMO, the Horns definitely belong in a hi-end category. The sound is very different than a conventional dynamic speaker, even thought they also have conventional drivers, etc. Listening to a live recording thru the Horns can be a moving experience (Janis Joplin, or D Purple live in Japan, for example).
You might also consider a pair of Tannoys -- I was very impressed by the Kingdom Royal. Presumably they are very expensive. Mind you, all of the models you mention are very large and require a large listening room!
You seem to like ATC and that’s a good speaker. They make great drivers and have solid performance but make no mistake they are not a ruthlessly revealing speaker. They have the British sound signature. For me they would need to be EQed the upper end is all over the place if you want revealing look for speakers with a flat response from 500hz -20khz. You still might need to implement a house curve to your taste. The Dutch and Dutch are flat from 100hz - 20klz that’s a neutral speaker. You’re right physics is physics and a lot of power with DSP can get down in the 20hz region with low distortion not violating physics using dual 8 inch drivers. I'm not recommending these speakers they are for comparison I like speakers even more revealing than these.
Hi Juan, As a beginner, your best choice is ATC. And if you want the best ATC, buy the Anniversary model. Their internal amps are all upgraded to Class A which is best SS. And all ATC powered are Tri-amped with dedicated amps for the tweeter, midrange and woofers. To do this with a passive speaker you would need three amps! Yes, ATCs are very accurate but you can listen to them for hour after hour as the pros do. And enjoy them for years. And if you want excellent guidance on everything to do with making your system great, call Ralph. He is well known and highly respected on this Forum. I recently got his MP-1 preamp. I am shocked and delighted by its performance. And matching it with ATC Anniversary will give you a world class system!
I appreciate ATC, but with my Synthesis ownership experience I would not currently be interested in an even more studio monitor type sound. ATC is more coherent than the JBLs, and imo represents dynamics at least as well. What I do not enjoy is the concentrated energy between and just forward of the speakers. It is a little much for me in retrospect. I would characterize ATC as a bit opaque of neutral, which is hard to define. The drivers are thickly coated. The 4367s in contrast are more articulate but more laid back with a more common audiophile type, big soundstage.
I read your post and is exactly my fear with the studio monitor sound, that it can causes fatigue and wouldn’t be pleasant to hear on the long term. What are your actual speakers ohlala?? Warm and intimate sound??
OK Juan, A speaker is only as good as the designer’s voicing and the listener’s ear. You you also need to consider the amplifier. One might say that speaker and amp are the “two hands clapping” in a system. The amplifier match is critical. If I were not going to buy ATC, I would buy Fyne F1-12 and a Luxman 509 integrated amp! I believe the Fyne speaker to be the evolution of the legendary Tannoy Westminster Royal which I lived with and loved for many years. As the Tannoy, the Fynes are easy to drive so the Class A 30 watts of the Luxman will be enough and sweet. The F1-12s are beautiful and designed by the people who previously worked at Tannoy. The Fyne speakers are highly thought of and sound like music. What is your budget??
Interesting thread-always interesting to hear what other perspectives are. I am the US importer and Lone Mountain. I am also the US pro importer distributor and have been for 20+ years. I did not always eork for ATC, I spent years at JBL, was the Dahlquist rep for many years in the midwest and ran a high end shop back in the mid to late 70s during the hey day of Magnapans, DCM Time Windows, KEF 104's and many others. That KEF was the most amazing thing I ever heard. Too bad Ray is out of the business now but he advanced the whole speaker business by himself. Same for a lot of the great English manufacturers who were small engineering houses that "built their own". .A LOT of our current body of work is owed to these inventors and the companies they owned.
From where i sit the speaker business is a manufacturing business and therefore an engineering business. That's why people like JBL, Revel, Magico and of course ATC impress me. They invest a lot of time engineering their way though problems. All of them get the single most important part of playback is the driver, where the energy transforms from electrical to acoustical. A speaker builder not building their own drivers trying to be successful with one hand tied behind their back.
Drivers offer the possibility of lower distortion if you build very good ones. Once the distortion is created in the driver you cant get it out- not DSP, not cabinets, not amplifiers, or preamps. ATC is one of the very very few that still builds their own drivers and parts and focuses on this singular idea: lower distortion means more music. Distortion acts like masking, it covers up details. It may be hardly audible as distortion, but its audible when the details disappear and the timbre starts to sound different than the real event. Give me accuracy and I'll take my chances with bad recordings thank you. Besides, some bad recordings are charming- like super old Elvis masters and old recordings of Aretha Franklin.
I'm not sure where this idea that low distortion studio monitors = harsh. Or mid forward. Or bad sound, It must be related to old monitors that the industry long ago abandoned for critical listening, such as horn based big two ways with crossover points at 800Hz, or giant bad sounding amplifiers like old Crowns. Some of those combinations can be so harsh as to rip your head off. Honestly NO ONE credible uses them as a sole reference anymore. All that really good sounding stuff that we call high end recordings was done on a very very good system. Its scary that some people think those recordings like Fleetwood Mac or Steely Dan where an accident or something. No, a lot of people spent months or even longer building those recordings piece by piece and making them as perfect as humanly possible. Actually these recording engineers have the same passion for audio that audiophiles do, they live for it.
From my way of thinking a speaker that the artists use because they can finally hear it like it is would represent something an audiophile would want. Do we really think that Tom Petty doesn't know what sounds good, or Fleetwood Mac, or Hiromi or Joni Mitchell?
Brad
PS, mglik, love to talk to you about ATC sometime. When we took over, we got zero information from Flat Earth. We literally started from zero.
@millhomes, I love big speakers for the same reason as you suggested. Big speakers present dynamics big and effortless. And I have listened to a lot of ATC, Tannoys & Altecs. Here is one simple thing you need to know.
ATC SCM150 is a big speaker and it needs VERY BIG room or at least a very well treated big room. It has a prodigious bass which takes over the room. In comparison the SCM100 is much more easy to use. It sounds like a monitor and fills a big room "nicely", without overwhelming. And sonically the 100 and 150 are in the same level. The bigness of 150 is just too much. On the contrary the big speakers from Altec, JBL, Tannoys do not overpower the room even though they have big drivers. They can sound intimate in a 250 - 350sqft room, just like SCM100. Careful with 150!
I've tried a number of very good lines stages (ATC, Coda, Herron) with my ATC SCM100ASLT speakers. So far I like the Zesto Audio Leto Ultra II the most.
I too would recommend the active ATC 100 over the 150 unless you have a huge room.
I don't think the preamp needs to be anything specific. One of things I personally love about ATC actives is they sound very different with different inputs. A tube preamp will make them sound very warm and "tube-like". If you want an all tube sounding system, you use all tubes in front of the ATC actives and YEP- there is that tube system sound. A very clean solid state preamp makes them sound like straight wires and ultra clean. If you want to hear how different an old SPA3A is versus a new Macintosh, nothing shows you that difference more clearly than a set of ATC actives.
ATC actives are designed to reflect changes in sound in the studio so an engineer can hear what no one else can. This what I thought Audiophiles want as well as they explore their system. The low distortion idea of the ATC actives makes every change easier to hear, including cable, sources, phono cartridges, tonearms, turntable platforms, converters and on and on. This gives the user even MORE possibilities to experiment and continue the hobby than passive systems do.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
