Are audiophiles still out of their minds?

^^^ It's Jim Carrey. Your ignorance is excused pennsy.

No knowledge to be garnered on a cable thread, might as well add some levity. ;^)

Jmcgrogan2: the student of Jim Cary! Your philosophy matches your IQ! Do you offer knowledge or smartass remarks!!

geoffkait3,570 posts06-12-2016 10:35am
Ergo, the claim that some legendary designs don’t believe in audiophile cables proves that there are no audible differences among cables is the VERY DEFINITION of an Appeal to Authority. Frustrating, ain’t it?It looks convincing only on the surface. But it fails to prove or even provide evidence of anythung. Any more than the argument that some blind test somewhere, who knows where, or the very threat of controlled blind tests, proves that there are no differences among cables. Hel-loo! For one thing some folks have axes to grind. So their opinions are unreliable. Besides, as I said previously, not all legendary designers think alike. For example John Curl DOES believe in audiophile cables. Ditto Lloyd Walker of Walker Audio, Lamm, von Schweikert. there’s a bunch. Trust me.

This reminds me of the old quip by Mark Twain (if I recall correctly) about "lies, damned lies, and statistics." People with an agenda take perfectly sound analytic protocols like DBL's and regression and distort the results for a living.  Ignoring basic test parameters like degrees-of-freedom and statistical significance not only creates incorrect conclusions but gives the protocol itself a very bad name.

Al,

That is pretty funny. I too am an engineer but have spent a lot of time over the years with some brilliant litigators as well . I feel a comfort level with your approach to reason. It is quite socratic. When you approach from all angles you leave no escape hatch for the unreasonable.
 
I also have DOD experience having manufactured parts on the F16 and electrical system components for pretty much everything in the US Army that moves--the M1 Abrams, Bradley, Humvee etc.  Maybe we can blame them for our approach to such matters. :)

Pretty much agree with your last post Geoff.

Which leaves us with jl35's wise post

fortunately we each get to listen to cables and other products and buy the ones we want to buy...

because, the only person we have to please is ourselves.  

Al's post above on cables, should automatically be placed at the beginning of all cables discussions...it is a thoroughly excellent summation of all relevant points...

Thank you, Wattsperchannel.  I appreciate your post, as well as its tone, and of course I see nothing disrespectful in it.

I would speculate you are an engineer or have played one in a former life; but that is just a guess. I suppose a litigator could be an option as well.

Your speculation is remarkably on the money.  I am an EE (now retired) with extensive experience designing and managing design of defense electronics.  I am also a licensed attorney and patent attorney, although I haven't practiced as such.

Best regards,
-- Al

Al,

I hope you take no disrespect from this but when I read your posts (like the two below), I feel I am reading my own thoughts but expressed in a more refined manner. Your logic is typically spot-on, sequentially developed and cogent, yet complete. (I would speculate you are an engineer or have played one in a former life; but that is just a guess. I suppose a litigator could be an option as well.)

I see very little room for a thoughtful person to argue any of your observations in the second post.  The only minor quibble I have would be the use of the term "over-priced" in paragraphs (4) and (5) which has the potential to leave a negative connotation based on a subjective measure (namely value). Certainly some wires have different "price-to-performance ratios," but given you have done such a intelligent job of compiling a list of objective observations void of subjective noise (i.e., crafted in a manner that disavows contention), I might have said it differently. None-the-less, very well done.

So when the content of your second post is juxtaposed with the understanding that the definition of "value" is entirely personal, in my opinion it becomes quite clear that people using purchase decisions (be they of cables or otherwise) as a weapons do so for reasons completely unrelated to audio.

almarg6,448 posts06-12-2016 10:13am

Geoffkait 6-11-2016 6:04 pm EDT
Lots of notable people don’t believe in things like high end cables, or say wire directionality or aftermarket fuses or fuse directionality and other things that have been around like forever. But that in itself doesn’t mean they’re not true. That’s what we in the biz refer to as an Appeal to Authority, which as you probably know is a logical fallacy.

While there are those who would consider an Appeal to Authority to be a logical fallacy, as I see it such an appeal is not at all illogical. Rather, it is simply less than conclusive, to SOME degree. The degree to which it is less than conclusive, and the persuasiveness of the appeal, comes down to a matter of judgment, taking into account the credibility and relevant background of the particular authority, the persuasiveness of conflicting evidence that may be available, the nature of the particular subject, and perhaps other factors. And as always, the judgments of different individuals will frequently differ.

Regards,
-- Al

almarg6,448 posts03-15-2016 2:30pmCan everyone agree on most or all of the following, and then perhaps this less than constructive discussion can be concluded:

1)Wires sound different, to a greater or lesser degree depending not only on the wire but on the technical characteristics of what they are connecting, their lengths, the AC voltage and noise characteristics at the particular location in the case of power cords (at least), the system, the room, the recording, and the listener.

2)For many reasons, including synergy with the aforementioned variables, the correlation between cable price and cable performance is significantly less than 1.0 (i.e., significantly less than perfect).

3)Based in part on a substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has accumulated over the years, the correlation between cable price and cable performance is significantly greater than 0.0 (i.e., significantly greater than none).

4)It seems evident that some cables are overpriced, one reason among several being that their prices are determined in part based on what the market will bear. And it seems evident that SOME segment of the market assumes a higher degree of correlation between cable price and cable performance than is actually the case, and that segment of the market will therefore pay higher prices to achieve results that may (with sufficient experimentation) be achievable at lower prices in their particular cases.

5)Additional reasons that cables may in many cases be overpriced relative to the benefit they are likely to provide (I’m quoting from myself in the following thread from a couple of years ago; and pardon the redundancy with some of the points mentioned above): 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/small-cable-companies-making-preposterous-claims

(a)As seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles, cable performance is highly system dependent.

(b)From a technical standpoint, it can be expected that cable performance will vary significantly depending on the technical characteristics of the components that are being connected, such as impedances. Even to the point of a comparison between two cables yielding exactly opposite results depending on what they are connecting. In past threads, such as this one, I have cited examples of situations in which exactly that can be expected to occur. [See especially both of the paragraphs in my post in that thread dated 12-15-2012 which begin with "one interesting example"].

(c)It seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles that cable performance cannot be either fully explained or fully predicted based on generally recognized science. It follows from that, however, that the cable designers have no way to accurately predict the point of demarcation between optimization of a given cable parameter or design characteristic and what may be overkill of that parameter or design characteristic, which will accomplish nothing in most or all applications. Therefore it can be expected that what is likely to be a significant driver of the cost of many very expensive cables is overkill of some or all of their design parameters and characteristics, which will accomplish nothing in most or all applications.

6)It can be expected that if SOME audiophiles whose cable experience has focused disproportionately on the higher part of the price spectrum were to give equal opportunity to a variety of cables at lower price points, and experiment with such cables as extensively as they do with higher priced cables, there is a significant chance that they may be able to achieve performance comparable to what they have achieved at those higher price points at significantly lower price points. A substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere supports that conclusion, for example the threads about vintage Western Electric wires.

7)It can be expected that if SOME audiophiles whose cable experience has focused disproportionately or entirely on the lower part of the price spectrum were to focus on the higher part of the price spectrum they might in some cases, depending in part on their equipment, be surprised at how good the results are. A substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere supports that conclusion 

8)Some audiophiles care more than others about achieving the last 5 or 10 or 20% of the performance their components are capable of. Some are satisfied with 80% and just want to listen to music. Both approaches are equally valid.

9)Assertions that wire is just wire are erroneous, and that belief should not be promulgated.

10)Assertions that more expensive necessarily = better are also erroneous, and that belief should not be promulgated, by implication or otherwise.

11)Just as not all audible differences are measurable, not all measurable differences are audible. I say that in connection with measurable differences that are presented in some marketing literature.

12)An assertion that spending more on cables rather than less increases the **probability** of achieving optimal results is arguably correct, but pronouncements to that effect are not gospel. And opinions to the contrary, if presented in a respectful manner, can and should be discussed in a respectful manner.

Regards,
-- Al

there seems to be a lot of concern that wealthy audiophiles not be duped...

and there is the bias of wanting the cheaper products to sound better so that we will not have to buy or be tempted to buy the more expensive product...when a friend brings over an expensive cable or tweak I always hope I don't like it...

mitch2
1,257 posts
06-12-2016 12:42pm
Geoffkait: "I figured it wouldn’t be too long before blind testing raised its ugly head.
"ugly head?"

to which mitch2 replied,

"Geeze Geoff, you can be more creative than pulling that page from your well-worn playbook.

What I don’t understand is how you and others can support the miraculous effects of cables, fuses, wire direction and other minutia, by saying the differences can obviously be heard, but then discount a method that provides listeners the opportunity to judge what sounds best based on the differences they hear, in the absence of other sensory and social influences. When challenged, many say the DBT method is not perfect but then neither is dropping some expensive item, or the "latest and greatest" version of something, into your system and heralding the positive effects without considering cognitive bias, golden halo effects, social reality and other psychological phenomena that could have a larger effect on influencing listeners than the potential drawbacks to DBT."

Please Re-read what I wrote and try not to put words in my mouth. I didn’t discount blind tests. I actually have no problem with blind tests or any other type of tests. But what I’m saying is that naysayers don’t actually DO any blind tests themselves nor do they have any evidence that anyone else has actually done ANY blind tests for cables. Furthermore a blind test or any test is not conclusive of anythung. It’s just a data point. There are so many examples of bad tests, really bad and unscientific tests, that it’s a bit difficult to take seriously anyone who claims that (someone else’s) test proves this or that. And one step further, if the results of a particular test are negative, if differences between cables or whatever are not observed, the results are practically meaningless without context to other tests and can be throw out depending on results of (any) other tests. You know, just like naysayers will claim that the placebo effect or expectation bias MUST be the cause of positive results. ;-)

GK

fortunately we each get to listen to cables and other products and buy the ones we want to buy...

I figured it wouldn’t be too long before blind testing raised its ugly head. 

"ugly head?"
Geeze Geoff, you can be more creative than pulling that page from your well-worn playbook.

What I don't understand is how you and others can support the miraculous effects of cables, fuses, wire direction and other minutia, by saying the differences can obviously be heard, but then discount a method that provides listeners the opportunity to judge what sounds best based on the differences they hear, in the absence of other sensory and social influences.  When challenged, many say the DBT method is not perfect but then neither is dropping some expensive item, or the "latest and greatest" version of something, into your system and heralding the positive effects without considering cognitive bias, golden halo effects, social reality and other psychological phenomena that could have a larger effect on influencing listeners than the potential drawbacks to DBT.

Almarg wrote,

"While there are those who would consider an Appeal to Authority to be a logical fallacy, as I see it such an appeal is not at all illogical. Rather, it is simply less than conclusive, to SOME degree. The degree to which it is less than conclusive, and the persuasiveness of the appeal, comes down to a matter of judgment, taking into account the credibility and relevant background of the particular authority, the persuasiveness of conflicting evidence that may be available, the nature of the particular subject, and perhaps other factors. And as always, the judgments of different individuals will frequently differ."

OK, let’s look at this type of argument more closely, shall we?

APPEAL TO AUTHORITY

Argument from authority, also ad verecundiam and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy.[1]

In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:[3]

A is an authority on a particular topic
A says something about that topic
A is probably correct
Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence,[4][5][6][7] as authorities can come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts.[8]

Forms
General
The argument from authority can take several forms. As a syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:[5][9]

A says P about subject matter S.
A should be trusted about subject matter S.
Therefore, P is correct.
The second premise is not accepted as valid, as it amounts to an unfounded assertion that leads to circular reasoning able to define person or group A into inerrancy on any subject matter.[5][10]

Ergo, the claim that some legendary designs don’t believe in audiophile cables proves that there are no audible differences among cables is the VERY DEFINITION of an Appeal to Authority. Frustrating, ain’t it?It looks convincing only on the surface. But it fails to prove or even provide evidence of anythung. Any more than the argument that some blind test somewhere, who knows where, or the very threat of controlled blind tests, proves that there are no differences among cables. Hel-loo! For one thing some folks have axes to grind. So their opinions are unreliable. Besides, as I said previously, not all legendary designers think alike. For example John Curl DOES believe in audiophile cables. Ditto Lloyd Walker of Walker Audio, Lamm, von Schweikert. there’s a bunch. Trust me.

Cheers,

geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio concepts

Geoffkait 6-11-2016 6:04 pm EDT
Lots of notable people don’t believe in things like high end cables, or say wire directionality or aftermarket fuses or fuse directionality and other things that have been around like forever. But that in itself doesn’t mean they’re not true. That’s what we in the biz refer to as an Appeal to Authority, which as you probably know is a logical fallacy.

While there are those who would consider an Appeal to Authority to be a logical fallacy, as I see it such an appeal is not at all illogical. Rather, it is simply less than conclusive, to SOME degree. The degree to which it is less than conclusive, and the persuasiveness of the appeal, comes down to a matter of judgment, taking into account the credibility and relevant background of the particular authority, the persuasiveness of conflicting evidence that may be available, the nature of the particular subject, and perhaps other factors. And as always, the judgments of different individuals will frequently differ.

Regards,
-- Al

jl35
1,015 posts
06-12-2016 7:45am
"to get back to your original question. I think the people who buy $10k cables are the people who buy $100k amps, $100k digital gear, $100k analog, $100k speakers. my guess is very few $100k cables systems are ever sold. little time to worry about the expenditures of the ultra wealthy..."

Actually, that’s probably true. Dracule1 just happens to be an exception to the rule since he has, according to him, some very expensive equipment. It’s just expensive cables he has heartburn with.

to get back to your original question. I think the people who buy $10k cables are the people who buy $100k amps, $100k digital gear, $100k analog, $100k speakers. my guess is very few $100k cables systems are ever sold. little time to worry about the expenditures of the ultra wealthy...

dracule1 wrote,

"All jokes aside, from what I recall there have been several published blinded AB tests to test differences in sound between cables and even between amps. But as we know, the results are always the same and not in the favor of cable manufacturers. But that’s another whole can of worms."

Surprise, surprise. I figured it wouldn’t be too long before blind testing raised its ugly head. If you recall several published blinded AB tests that showed there are no differences among cables would it be asking too much to provide links to those published tests? I'm not exactly sure why but naysayers frequently claim there are some blind tests out there somewhere, who knows where, that prove that such and such controversial audiophile product is a scam. :-)

Dracule1 also wrote,

"Einstein and his refusal to accept quantum mechanics. You have a point there, but he was right about so many other things like gravity waves, space-time, black holes, photo-electric effect, etc. Who knows in the future some genius will turn quantum mechanics upside down and prove Einstein was right. 😏"

Exactly! Einstein was right about many things but not everything. And because some legendary audio designers made outstanding electronics or speakers doesn’t mean they’re correct on every subject. So using them as proof or even evidence that cables are a scam is an illogical argument.

From a logic standpoint, even if quantum mechanics is turned on it’s head at some far distant time, which is rather unlikely, you know, given that it has survived scrutiny for a hundred years, that would not be evidence or proof that cables are a scam.

cheere,

geoff kait
machina dynamica

Mapman, I agree with you.  We're expressing our opinions, no harm in that.  But I draw the line at back seat third rate psychoanalysis! 😁

Watts, thank you for your online University of Pheonix psychoanalysis. I’m happy you’re crawling back to whatever hippy new age culture you sprang from that compels you to give psycho babble advice to someone you’ve never met. I’m very happy listening to Nora Jones while I write this. And good luck with your journey back to your plane of existence.

Not believing in expensive wires and talking about it does not make someone a bad person.  

Lets talk about the topic and not trash the people.   

People can say and buy whatever they want.  God blees'em.   It's just discussion.  Should be nothing to fear.  

Not only do you not have to prove anything but you don't even have to have a viable explanation of how it works.   It just does and surprise unlike most audio things makes things better no matter what came before it.   It's magic and nothing else does it better.  

Drac,

I agree there is no further point in interacting on this subject as we are not connecting on the important issues. Whether you realize it or not the discussion we attempted to have has little to do with audio or cables.  

You appear to me to be a very unhappy person. Concocting irrational positions to justify an attempt to lift yourself above others will only add to your burden. Look within; focus on the pathology of that which drives your need to behave in such a way. Its the only only way out. Good luck with the journey.

Geoffkait,

"Lots of notable people don’t believe in things like high end cables, or say wire directionality or aftermarket fuses or fuse directionality and other things that have been around like forever. But that in itself doesn’t mean they’re not true."

If their claim isn’t true, don’t you think those who claim it’s true need to prove it? Oh wait, this is high end audio. Sorry for even suggesting that. 🙄

All jokes aside, from what I recall there have been several published blinded AB tests to test differences in sound between cables and even between amps. But as we know, the results are always the same and not in the favor of cable manufacturers. But that’s another whole can of worms.

Einstein and his refusal to accept quantum mechanics. You have a point there, but he was right about so many other things like gravity waves, space-time, black holes, photo-electric effect, etc. Who knows in the future some genius will turn quantum mechanics upside down and prove Einstein was right. 😏

Mitch,

"However, there are well-respected manufacturers who do believe in high end/priced cables being different/better so courses for horses, just like with the folks on this thread."

Some of them also manufacture speakers and recommend their extremely expensive cables for their speakers. Incredibly, some of their cables cost more than their speakers. Go figure.

As as my conversation with one of the legends of audio revealed, many of these well-respected manufactures who "believe" in high priced cables use/promote those cables more for marketing reasons than their inherent value. 

Lots of notable people don’t believe in things like high end cables, or say wire directionality or aftermarket fuses or fuse directionality and other things that have been around like forever. But that in itself doesn’t mean they’re not true. That’s what we in the biz refer to as an Appeal to Authority, which as you probably know is a logical fallacy. You know, kind of like claiming because Einstein didn’t believe in quantum mechanics that quantum mechanics is not real. Besides, there are lots of other notable and legendary designers who DO believe in high end cables. Do you really think all legendary designers think alike?

How long has the cable controversy been around, gee, gotta be 35 years? I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I suspect the cable debate is not going to go away anytime real soon. Well, hopefully, anyway.

geoff kait
machina dramatica
no goats no glory

One notable point. Most of the legendary designers of high end audio like Neson Pass, Bob Carver, Arney Nudell, Peter Walker, etc do or did not use or believe in these fairy dust audiophile cables.

They probably don't believe in "audiophile" fuses either.

However, there are well-respected manufacturers who do believe in high end/priced cables being different/better so courses for horses, just like with the folks on this thread.

One notable point. Most of the legendary designers of high end audio like Neson Pass, Bob Carver, Arney Nudell, Peter Walker, etc do/did not use or believe in these fairy dust audiophile cables. These are legends that cable manufactures who hock megabuck cables would freely give or give at cost their cables just for marketing reasons. I have had long conversations with one of these legends who opened my eyes on what goes behind the scenes in high end audio. There are so many fallacies that audiophiles will believe and defend to this very day.

O_holter, yes there cable manufacturers who are genuinely trying to make great sounding cables at a reasonable cost. I’ve never evaluated JPS. It’s nice to hear they are willing to support customers who bought their cable used. It’s only during the early 1990’s, did we see a slew of cable manufacturers start charging over $1000. Clever marketing, over the top reviews by top mags at the time, and a big dose of support by gullible audiophiles catapulted cable prices to the obscene we see today.

Eatts, we have a difference in opinion. Yet you seem to be unable to grasp this simple concept.

First, you claimed $100k for cabling is considered cheap to some. Now you revised that to $20k. That’s factor of 5 differential. Either way it’s ridiculous, but be consistent in your argument. You claim time is more valuable than the cost differential. To a few that may be true, but I guarantee you that for 99.999999999% of the population, spending $100k for wires for an audio system is incomprehensible. You can use whatever permutation you like to justify your purchase, but you’re coming off like a person born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I guess it’s easy to convince yourself of your delusion when you can afford Soluution electronics with your Raidho D3. I was extremely lucky to come on a great deal on a D2, which I would have never purchased otherwise. So I’m looking from a different perspective than yours.

The fact that you don’t want to reveal what cabling you have in you’re system says a lot. It may have everything to do with why you were compelled to comment. You were offended that I called people who spend tens of thousands on cables suckers. Do you fall into this category? Like I said, everyone who got into high end at one point was a sucker, including myself. No shame in that. And I get the distinct feeling I’ve been in this hobby almost as long as you’ve been alive.

So in the end, we have a difference in opinion. You think it’s justifiable to spend $100k on wire. I don’t. If you think I’m ignorant because of that, then there are a lot more who belive you're ignorant for justifying spending a down payment on a house for audio wire. Yes, it all boils down to value judgement. But your sense of value is so far off from the rest of the population, it’s like arguing with Donald Trump. Hopefully, I was pedantic enough for you to be able to grasp my perspective. I see no point in responding to you after this.

Drac,

If I explain things in a somewhat pedantic fashion; for that I apologize, but I do so in hopes that it will help with your understanding.

I never said mine was the right one. So you are misinterpreting my opinion as fact.

You started the thread and have maintained a derogatory attitude throughout the thread toward people who spend their money in ways with which you disagree. In doing so you don’t just imply but you entirely predicate these suppositions on your view of an ethereal concept like value being the correct one. This is the very basis of your claim. A person can’t call people crazy and/or fools without such claims being founded on a a judgement made by that person.

This really isn’t a very complicated concept. You are an antagonist and thats fine, but at least step up and own it.

You are calling my views on price of cables narrow minded and I’m defacing innocent bystanders.

No, I am calling them meaningless for the reasons I have stated. Allow me to use just one example to make the point as simple as I can: $20,000 cables for some are cheap and DIY cables for those same people are expensive because those people’s time is more valuable than the cost differential. There are a million other permutations of personal circumstances and value judgments that drive an individual’s decision matrix. You are taking your personal matrix and applying it to the masses and then being critical. Thats not very thoughtful or nice.

This concept seams completely lost on you, yet you are the one impugning the intelligence of people making sound financial decisions. Until you can begin to get your head around this perspective (which I fear is unlikely) you will never appreciate how you appear to people.

If you want we can spend time on the numbers cuz it is primarily about math.

Did I call out anyone particular? No.

Ummm, no you did not. I do not understand if you are making a point here. May I ask what this comment has to do the discussions?

While you are on your high horse belittling me and my opinion, look in the mirror?

Goodness, I apologize if I was belittling. My purpose was actually to point out that the premise you were using to do the belittling made no sense. The whole thing is actually kinda funny. You need a paradigm shift. I am just trying to save you from yourself.

Or did I hit a nerve because you have ridiculously priced cables in your system?

Another comment that I have trouble understanding. How do my cables have anything to do with you ripping on people from a position of abject ignorance? I know I am really happy with my cables. Does that help clarify anything for you?

You’re taking this too personally. So take a chill pill, homie.

What have I said that would make you think this has anything to do with me or that I am even a little bit riled up? Intrigued, amused, entertained, I will give you those; but I assure you I am totally chill dude.

So-so - calm down folks.
Yes there is much overpriced cable and yes there is good value to be had too.
Regarding JPS - I had a broken SC3, and they fixed it, for no cost. Even though I had bought it used so they had no obligation to do it. That’s good business sense - in my book.
There are shams I am sure but there are also many people genuinely trying to make better sounding cable.

It seems you’re the one who gets off on a good tussle repeatedly trying to bait me. 😏

Now let me see, who cast out the bait? Who originally posted this toxic thread? I'm simply nibbling on your bait.
I have to say that you are a Master Baiter. Gracias, señor

These anti-cable toxic threads pop up once or twice a month, usually by someone looking for a good argument. ;^)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

jl35,

"Curious as to which cheap cables you felt sounded as good as your Ridge Streets"

It it depends on which set up I’m using. The ridge street speaker cables are fantastic with the ridge street Sason speakers with tube amplification. But in another system with brighter sounding speakers, it can sound tonally a little thin. In cases like these, cheap copper speaker cables from Signal Cable work very well and I prefer it over the ridge streets.

Some the very best ICs I’ve ever had in my system is using the affordable Signal Silver Resolution IC wire (Ag/Cu hybrid) with Furutech RCA plugs with the solderless clamping nut (under $400 retail).  I was surprised how much solder can degrade sound.  I compared this with ridge street Altheia pure silver IC which retailed for over $1000. Surprisingly in my main setup, the Altheia sounded looser in the bass, more rounded and fuller in the mids, and less extrended in the highs like a classic tube gear. Wasn't really a fan of this type of sound.

Power cords from DH labs are on the expensive side, but 5’ Red Wave PC can still be had for $750 retail and sound great in a variety of systems I’ve tried. Very dimensional, extended, dynamic and detailed without sounding strident. You can get used Red Wave for less than half the price, which IMO is very reasonable for what it does. It definitely is better than the much less expensive PC offerings from Signal.

Cable sound is all over the map and doesn't necessarily correlate with price IME. 

Jmcgrogen, "I ask because you come off the same way as those blokes back in the day (1990’s?).
Acting as if you are out trying to save the world, when inside it seems like all you really desire is a good tussle.
You live for the antagonism, it gives you a natural high.
You are reveling in this troll thread.......ahhh good bait!!!"

Save the world by posting my beef about cables? What have you been smoking?
It seems you’re the one who gets off on a good tussle repeatedly trying to bait me. 😏 Time to ignore you. But I'm certain you'll try to get the last word in and try to bait me with endless dribble. Have you're last say and RIP.

Eattsperchannel, I’m not your "dude". I never said mine was the right one. So you are misinterpreting my opinion as fact. All of us are expressing our opinion. You are calling my views on price of cables narrow minded and I’m defacing innocent bystanders. Did I call out anyone particular? No. While you are on your high horse belittling me and my opinion, look in the mirror? Or did I hit a nerve because you have ridiculously priced cables in your system? You're taking this too personally. So take a chill pill, homie.

dracule1 OP894 posts06-10-2016 5:29pmwattsperchannel,

" Certain individuals find $100,000 wires cheap, some do not; where is the profit in belittling one or the other. It all seams so trite, wreaks of jealousy, and ignorance.

Get over it, accept your lot in life and enjoy it for what it is; we only get one. You may find the whole journey a little more enjoyable."

Hmm, and your comment isn’t belittling and a little self serving like you have it all together in life? Your type of attitude feeds into the justification of ludicrously priced wires. It seems you are the one ignorant of the cable industry with its crazy markup and backhanded deals between dealers and manufacturers where the markup can be easily over 10x and customers get ripped off. I know because I have insider friends who deal with cable manufacturers. Find me an individual who thinks $100k wire is cheap. Or are you just pulling that out of your nether region?

Me jealous of $100K cables? I have no choice but to laugh at this nonsense.

The only profit I’m hoping for is to steer some newbie audiophile away from these high priced high end cables, which are complete sham.

Thank you for such an enlightening response. I guess just have to accept my life isn’t perfect like yours.

Dude how about you go back and re-read my words and this time try to think about their meaning. I do not believe you understood what I said. I am sorry if I was not clear.

All of your comments about price are meaningless. You are trying to instill your very simple, very narrow (mis)understanding of the such things on the masses.

Why do you insist on thinking your interpretation of a wholly subjective matter like relative-value is the right one? Maybe spend some time evaluating the pathology of such behavior as opposed to defacing innocent bystanders. Like I said above, you might find the journey a little more enjoyable.

The only profit I’m hoping for is to steer some newbie audiophile away from these high priced high end cables, which are complete sham.

@dracule1 , did you used to post on Audio Review forums decades ago under the moniker eyespy or mtrycrafts?

I ask because you come off the same way as those blokes back in the day (1990's?).
Acting as if you are out trying to save the world, when inside it seems like all you really desire is a good tussle.
You live for the antagonism, it gives you a natural high.
You are reveling in this troll thread.......ahhh good bait!!!

Curious as to which cheap cables you felt sounded as good as your Ridge Streets 

Transparent Ultra XL I meant to say. Yes, I am aware of the great markup in general terms. I also found these expensive cables to sound better than the dozen less expensive ones I compared them to. I wanted to like the cheap ones better. I thought of it as giving myself a loan, enjoying the cables, then getting my money back. That's the great thing about used cables, the price goes down steep and fast, then holds value for years. So encourage those that don't care about the cost to keep buying expensive new cables...

I never said all weren't engineers.  There are cables that are made with proven engineering practice by engineers. Whether they sound good to you or not is a different matter.

"I never worry about the guys who spend a fortune on new cables. if not for them, we couldn’t buy used cables." Well, you have a point there. Let the suckers buy them first, and you reap the benefits later.

"I had Transparent XL and Super MM2 for 8 years, at a $50 total cost after I sold them" So you do know the business model. Crazy markup.

I had Transparent XL and Super MM2 for 8 years, at a $50 total cost after I sold them

actually some of those guys are engineers. and if you buy the cable used, you can sell for very little loss after a few years. is the percentage markup greater the more expensive the cable? I know nothing of the business model. I never worry about the guys who spend a fortune on new cables. if not for them, we couldn't buy used cables.

jl35, even with those "good deals" from direct sale cable manufacturers, they are making a healthy profit, much more than if one were to produce and sell a speaker or amplifier. Why do you think there are so many guys out there making cables from their home? It’s relatively easy to make, requires no degree or competent knowledge in engineering or electronics, and materials are cheap, unless you start buying from those "audiophile" wire producers. I’m not criticizing the small guy producing cable from his home. Usually they’re reasonably priced. I know a guy who made good tube amps. He found out how much markup there was for cables through an associate who made audiophile cables for a living. Now he’s making cables, and his tube amps are history. The markups for $100K cables are insane.

I think that is why there are such good deals from direct sale cable manufacturers. I assumed every one knew the cable markup, like movie popcorn and coke, on a way greater scale. 

wattsperchannel,

" Certain individuals find $100,000 wires cheap, some do not; where is the profit in belittling one or the other. It all seams so trite, wreaks of jealousy, and ignorance.

Get over it, accept your lot in life and enjoy it for what it is; we only get one. You may find the whole journey a little more enjoyable."

Hmm, and your comment isn’t belittling and a little self serving like you have it all together in life? Your type of attitude feeds into the justification of ludicrously priced wires. It seems you are the one ignorant of the cable industry with its crazy markup and backhanded deals between dealers and manufacturers where the markup can be easily over 10x and customers get ripped off. I know because I have insider friends who deal with cable manufacturers. Find me an individual who thinks $100k wire is cheap. Or are you just pulling that out of your nether region?

Me jealous of $100K cables? I have no choice but to laugh at this nonsense.

The only profit I’m hoping for is to steer some newbie audiophile away from these high priced high end cables, which are complete sham.

Thank you for such an enlightening response. I guess just have to accept my life isn’t perfect like yours.

Knowing the brand and being on the lookout meant I got most of these cables reasonably priced, 30-50 pct of new retail.

Jafant
I use Kimber KCAG from my turntable to my phono preamp (Aesthetix Io partial eclipse upgrade)  and then JPS SC3 from the phono preamp to the preamp (Einstein the tube mk2), JPS SC2 from the preamp to the Atma-Sphere MA-1 amps, and JPS SC3 to the Audiokinesis Dream Maker speakers. Works very well.