I am sorry so say that most of the Winged C on the open market now is B-Stock tubes and the price has Reach the Level of real NOS tubes....
ARC Ref 5se VS ARC Ref 6
Ok i need some help and opinions. I just auditioned at my home the ARC Ref 6. All i can say is WOW. !!!!!!!!! I was truly blown away with the sound. Everything is truly there . To me there are no short comings. Ok let me start off by saying that originally i was looking for a used ARC Ref 3. Then i started reading on some forums and on here that the 5 was very close to the 3 and the 5se was truly a great sounding unit and upgrade from the 3. I really wanted to audition the 5se at my home but unfortunately he just sold his demo and only had the 6. I really cant afford the 6 right now brand new But after hearing the 6 with my system im wondering if i purchase a 5se would i be disapointed after hearing the 6. Like the 3 vs the 5se i read it was a very big difference , Is the 6 a really big difference in sound ? Should i wait for a used 6? I know that i have read great reviews on the 5se. I just wish i could of heard the 5se also in my system to compare / decide for my self. Any help would be very much appreciated .
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The Winged C 6550 are good, but even better are NOS 6550. I am so Lucky I get my hands on some JAN GE 6550 "welded plates" which I use in my REF5, and this made a big difference in sound quality. The Stock Sovtek is trash… I also use NOS RCA 6550 together with 6H30DR in my REFCD8 With the same result. A big step up. The problem is to find this tubes... |
@jonaiken Some years back I seem to recall a conversation with Uncle Kevin about SED Winged Cs. Kevin said that some SED Winged Cs on the market do not spec all that well. I haven't checked UA's website in a while, but I seem to recall that at least for a while, Uncle Kevin had some quality SED Winged Cs in stock. You'd have to check in with UA to know for sure if they still have stock. Coincidentally, I have about 8 or 10 ARC SED Winged C tubes from an old ARC amp I used town. I am considering sending them to Rodger M for testing. If they have life, I may use them in my ARC front end components as power supply tubes. Matching is not important since they are solos. BIF |
The 6H30P-DR’s can be purchased from the Tubestore (www.tubestore.com) out of Canada and they are currently $299.95 each - I have seen them on eBay cheaper but I rather spend a few extra dollars buying from the Tubestore.... they stand behind what they sell. The Winged C SED 6550C on the other hand are hard to find - I stashed away a dozen a few years back. The only place I see them now is on eBay out of Russia - don’t know the quality but might be worth taking a risk - they have a high rating. Good luck finding them they are worth it. |
@jonaiken, May I know where did you resource your 6H30P-DR from? There are so I completely agree with you on replacing the stock tubes. So far I replaced the stock 6550C in Ref 6 with Winged C SED 6550C and very pleased with the upgrade. The soundstage now bit more relaxed without the bloated bass I experienced with stock 6550WE. |
I started my ARC journey with the Ref 5SE followed by the Ref 6 and now the Ref 10. The Ref 6 is without a doubt the Best Buy of the three - the change from Ref 6 over the 5SE was a significant improvement, while the Ref 10 provides more of what the Ref 6 does well but the change wasn’t as significant as moving up to the Ref 6 from the Ref 5SE. Get a Ref 6 and replace the stock Sovtek Tubes with Reflectors (6H30P-DR) and Winged C SED 6550C’s and you will be close to a stock Ref 10 |
Copied over from another ARC thread: Just traded in my ARC Ref 5SE for a ARC Ref 6 today. Here are my reactions, … FWIW. Is the Ref 6 a better sounding unit than the Ref 5SE? IMO, yes. Here's why. First off, bass is tighter, but not in an exaggerated sense. Just better low end and midrange detail. The sound stage is more open. I get a sense that there's less clutter to the imaging and a more coherent presentation of the musical performance. To my old ears, it is a palpable difference. To die for? No. But to appreciate and enjoy? Yes. That said, do I think the Ref 5SE is a sonic slouch? Absolutely not! Both units share similar ARC house sound characteristics. But the Ref 6 does tease out more detail and a better sense of a uniform sound stage with few gaps. I surmise that the Ref 10 and Ref 40 are of similar genre to the Ref 6, ... just more of the same. Admittedly, I have never heard the Ref 10 or Ref 40, but generously assume (based on member comments) that they are a cut above the Ref 6. As I listen to more source material, I will add more comments if I think worth passing along. Regards, BIF |
I don't expect many to agree with me, but I have always preferred ARC's Power to it's Pre amps, or at least felt them to be better value. I have used the reference 75SE for some years now and never expect to change it. I looked around for some time for a Pre to do it justice, but couldn't really afford the Ref 5, which was available at the time, not the SE. I tried the Ref 3 and yes it was very good, but found I preferred the sound of the Modwright 36.5 and it was cheaper. It seems to match the 75SE very well and again don't plan to change. So if like me, the 5SE and 6 are out of your price range, the Modwright might be worth a listen. |
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Cleeds - I’m not sure what you mean here You are welcome to peruse my virtual system. The answers to your questions are there for sharing. My cards are face up. 8^0 If you still have questions after, I prefer you ask me there. You see the OP TTM has made his decision on this thread, and has no interest in vinyl, phono stages, and tiny, vibrating, resonating, signals. |
ct0517 I have always equated company flagship preamps, you know, the ones that really showcase a company’s talents, to preamps with isolated power supplies and adjustable gain. These features separate the men from the boys, imo.I’m not sure what you mean here. The SP-10, SP-11 and SP-15 were all two-box affairs, and they date to the early -80s. When ARC went to the Reference preamp series, it still used two boxes: One for the line stage, one for the phono. I do see there is room in the REF 10, to put a phono stage. So why did they not do it; I mean if its a quest for the best sonics ?I’m not sure what you mean here. First you argue that a preamp should be two boxes, then you suggest they should squeeze more into each box. IMO, A separate additional box, and more cables to hookup phono when dealing with that tiny vinyl signal is not a good thing ...It’s not a tiny phono signal once it leaves the phono preamp - it’s a line level signal just like any other. And there are advantages to having the phono preamp in a separate box, including being able to site it where it works best, such as close to the turntable. |
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^^^ Panprot19 My personal opinion panprot19; is that if one fails in their attempt to set up a component, especially a popular one, and this component is still in good shape and not in need of a rebuild; well, do not be so hard on yourself. I mean really, this thing weighs 200 lbs, and one needs a dolly to move the box. You could throw more than your back out. Also Mono and Stereo amps both come with their own set of pros and cons. The room itself is the bigger influence. Show us a picture of your room with speakers. For seasoned audiophiles, pictures tell the whole story behind people’s posts and have meaning. Now I know a number of people that made that amp you seem to hate, one of their final ones. Meaning its staying put not going anywhere. Maybe because it weighs so much ? But who owns just one amp anyway ? that can leave you with no music, if it goes down. ********* back to the thread. couple comments that were made The REF 10 is the standard bearer. I have always equated company flagship preamps, you know, the ones that really showcase a company’s talents, to preamps with isolated power supplies and adjustable gain. These features separate the men from the boys, imo. The Ref 10 checks both these two boxes; but why did it take ARC so long to figure it out again after the flagship models of the past that had these features ? A change in people that do the thinking ? I do see there is room in the REF 10, to put a phono stage. So why did they not do it; I mean if its a quest for the best sonics ? IMO, A separate additional box, and more cables to hookup phono when dealing with that tiny vinyl signal is not a good thing; except maybe in business and profits. |
I do not have the ref5 or 6 but I have the ref2, the anniversary, the 38s and the krell fpb 600. Generaly the arc preamps are a much better match to the krells compared to the 38s which is not very good pre anyway. However you also have an even bigger problem in your setup with the amp which is the worst amp produced by krell. To make a big difference to your system I would suggest you buy the cheaper ref3 and spend some money upgrading the krell. I did that with mine and the difference was impressive. I had 128 caps replaced with nichicon gold caps as well as the power supply caps replaced with new ones of the same type. There was a very big improvement in clarity and speed. Ofcourse the sound is not as good as it comes out of the mcx or the krs monos but if you cannot afford them its the next best thing you can do. |
Agree with most of the posts here. Had a 5, uogrded it to a 5SE > wow, much better. Upgraded it to a demo Ref 6. Could not beleave my ears: much better and more gain. Have always used them with the Shunyata Sigma power cord. Advise: wait till you see a used Ref 6 for a good price. (I paid 7k8 and sold the SE for 5k9). Good luck, Jaap Linde (NL) |
When I got my Ref6, I compared it to the new Foundation LS28, as my shop didn't have a Ref5SE on hand. I was actually intending to get the LS28 or find a used Ref5SE, but my dealer, who I've worked with quite a bit, had a Ref6 that a good customer had traded in to upgrade to D'Agostino. The price was (relatively) not too much over the price of the LS28, and there was only about 400 hours on the Ref6. My research at the time indicated that people thought the new LS28 was pretty close in sound quality to the Ref5SE. The LS28 was good, but the Ref6 was immediately noticeable as being better. Everything was more transparent, and there was a definite improvement in the quality of the bass. When I notice a difference so easily after the several minutes it takes to switch out cables, I'm confident that it's not a small improvement. I'm going to offer another observation, though. When the new B&W 800 D3 series came out, I went in to upgrade from my 804 D2's to the new 803 D3. I ended up selecting the also new Wilson Sabrina instead, and have been very happy with them. Last summer, though, my dealer offered me almost what I paid for the Sabrina's to upgrade to the new Yvette. I spent a couple of hours listening to them side by side, through the same gear I'm driving my Sabrinas with at home, and there was no question that the Yvette is a significant step up from the Sabrina. BUT - once taxes were taken in to account, it was still going to be around $13,000 for the upgrade. I spent a few days thinking about it, and realized that I was still very happy with the Sabrina's, and if I weren't listening to them so close together I'd be hard pressed to say how big of a difference there really was. The upshot? I probably would have felt the same if I got the LS28 instead of the Ref6, especially if I could only get the Ref6 at the new price. My recommendation is go with a used Ref5SE, get used to its sound in your system, and figure out if you really want the Ref6 when you come across a used one that's more affordable for you. |
On the plastic remote for my CD7, the battery cover started falling off all the time. Then the weight inside came loose and started banging around. ARC sent me a metal one. My Ref 5se came with a metal remote. I have told ARC many times that they should make one remote that controls everything. I have a row or ARC remotes sitting on my coffee table. I don't think I have ever used the ones for my DAC8 or Ref Phono 2se. |
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Long time ARC customer like others on here. I think you will be happy with the Ref 5SE. Especially if it is within your price range. I owned one for about a year and only switched out the stock power cord for a Transparent cable. I was really happy with it. Then suddenly I was offered a chance on a factory Ref 10 demo unit in black and that was too good to pass up. As mentioned the green board is the popular one to own. |
jmcgrogan2 Thanks for your info. I want to ask you a question. Someone emailed me from here and said i should look for a 5se with the green circuit board and bot the brown. He said the green is the newer and modified with updates. Like the last year of the 5se they used the green and not the brown. What is your opinion on that? |
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jmcgrogan2 . John , Yes i was comparing the ARC 6 to the ML 38s, as that was my only preamp i had been listening to for about a year and a half along with my Krell FPB 600. I too am sure the ARC ref 3 would of also blown away the ML 38s. Originally i was looking for the ARC ref 3 for about $4600 but for about 2 grand more i could get a nice used 5se , I think thats worth it. Now with that said spending another $5500 for the ARC 6 compared to the 5se. As much as i LOVED auditioning the 6 in my rig the last 2 days ,running my Krell FPB 600 and B&W 800 matrix , I dont think i would ever want to upgrade from the 6. Im sure i could live with the 5se until the 6se or 7 comes out and then upgrade to the 6 when the price drops. BTW have you noticed any used ARC 6 listed on AG recently? |
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Hi; I upgraded over the years from an SP9 to SP9MKII to SP11 to REF 3 to REF 5SE to REF 6. Loved the SP9 MK II and with new tubes there was not a jaw dropping difference between that and the REF 3. Compared the REF 3 to a REF 5 and there wasn't enough of a difference to me to justify going to the REF 5. However, in direct comparison between the REF 3 and the REF 5 SE, there was a large difference. Don't get me wrong. To this day, the REF 3 is still one of the best out there. it is very nice indeed. However, the REF 5SE was simply nicer to me. I also did a direct A/B comparison between the REF 5SE and the REF 6 and to me there was not a jaw dropping difference. The REF 6 was slightly better than the REF 5SE. Therefore, it comes down to budget. I was going to keep the REF 5SE, but, I bought it at a very nice price and then learned about the Audio Research trade in-trade up policy at the time and they gave me 75% of MSR for the REF 5SE. They basically gave me more for the REF 5SE than what I paid for it. It made going up to the REF 6 a very good economical decision. No regrets. it is very hard indeed to beat the REF 6. The REF 10 is the standard bearer. But, if you can afford it, you won't regret the REF 6. That said, you also won't regret getting a REF 5SE either. enjoy |
jimgrogan2 Basically you are saying that the 3 compared to the 5 was not much of an improvement and the 5 compared to the 5se was not much an improvement either? I can get a new 6 for 1200. Almost double in price of a used 5se which im looking at about 6500. Would that mean that the 6 would sound twice as good? I have the 6 in my system right now to audition and like i said i was really blown away with the sound . But i cant compare it to the 5se. Thats why im asking you guys ..Im thinking with changing the PC , Fuse dampers and fuse i would be very happy with the 5se for now. lol. And then later on down the road if i really want the 6 the price should drop on the used market and then pick one up. Thanks jim. |