April 2017 review of the Paradigm Persona 9H A home run for Paradigm!
I have been following all the contested threads about the new Paradigm Persona line of speakers and it seems that many people are having difficulties in believing that Paradigm, a company well respected for value loudspeakers could produce a product that can rival the best exotic loudspeakers on the market.
The review came out today in the Absolute Sound April 2017 issue and what my ears have told me is true, is true. John Atkinson, compared the Pardigm 9H $35k to the Magico S7MK 2 $58k and found that Personas to be in the same class as these highly thought of prestigious loudspeakers. I think I read on one of the threads that a Magico owner was saying that wasn't possible!
I am not an expert, on loudspeakers, I do know what sounds real to me, and when I heard these speakers my jaw hit the floor. Stunning realism. I could almost reach out and touch the Beatles, and Miles Davis. Huge sound stage, totally transparent, and smooth, with dynamite bass.
At this point I am torn between the Legacy Audio Signatures and The Paradigm Persona 3F which shares the same driver technology of the 9H but costs $10k, I am lucky to be working with a dealer that represents both of these awesome lines of loudspeakers.
It seems to me that many audiophiles need to open their minds and stop being so brand loyal to the point of obsession, and start looking at the sound, and only the sound. I know for me as a professional photographer, I have gone back and forth between Canon and Nikons, and I love them both but am wedded to neither. Why in the audio world do people have such furvor over what they buy with the belief that their product and only their product is the best? In the camera world it seems much more fluid with people changing camera brands without ever starting a written riot if someone dares to bring up another brand or question their choice.
I really wanted to buy the 7f last year after going thru several well regarded speakers and in my conversations with the dealer and the steep bass rolloff below 80 hz from other ‘full range’ models he refused to sell me the 7f and said I needed the 9h for my room..
not having bottomless pockets and slightly fearful of losing even more money getting the components right I went another direction. My question is did he recommend the 9h because of arc? The 7f in their showroom has more than enough bass and the thought of adding 4 more 700 watt 8 1/2” woofers sounds like overkill considering how great they are without them. I want to say designed dsp speakers are no comparison to adding dsp room correction to passive speakers.
A long time ago I owned Thiel 2.3's for less than a year, then was seduced into getting the 3.6's by a generous trade-up policy and the quest for more bass. Biggest single hi-fi mistake I've ever made (and I've made several). The 3.6's drove me into the arms of single-ended, class A 300B's combined with ProAcs. Never heard the 3.7's but after the 3.6's never really had any desire to do so.
There is so much more that goes into a component other than specs or similar design. It's all about execution of design. Different boxes and ways to dissipate energy, cone and full speaker driver materials and design. Internal components, crossovers etc..
I personally didn't like Jim's speakers as they too were fatiguing to me. Great guy though and a true pioneer.
It's Paradigms first foray into the higher end. I feel Vandersteen's 'high end' line starts at Treo.
It's different strokes as I've always posted on most any thread I post. I don't put down the 9H's as much as saying they are tipped up on the top end and fatiguing to my ears. There are many who post and many who don't who feel the same way. I know many of their dealers and a bunch have said they sell them because they sell well in the lower lines. They are in business and have customers who like different sounds.
Plenty of folks don't listen to the Vandersteen's. I'm not even saying they should. Folks do however need to trust their own ears end not listen to the sale's pitches online or at the dealer. Most don't. They let themselves get told how to hear and what to listen for and of course there are great demo's for showing off one's speakers (or chose any component). That's not even peeking behind the curtain. it's been the norm since I started in the hobby in the late 60's.
There are quite few review sites that compare the products under review with other similar items. My favorite site is the very popular Soundstage.com. I like almost all the reviewers writing there and they also answer email.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/ also does comparisons within a price range. Even Stereophile in the recent Bartok DAC was comparing it with a Mytek.
I get the feeling that there are certain PUNTERS for brands on A’gon. What I hear and what people say on here about certain products do not match.
Here are a couple of sites that pan products. Heck even Stereophile did that to the Bryston 7B-SST amp (Fremer) and yet Bryston still goes back to Stereophile.
I ain't too audio technical, but the Thiel and Vandersteen have the 1st order cross over and they have the sloped profile (for time alignment?). I do not keep track of these specs but there is commentary here on A'gon about the similarities in the design. Like I said above they do not sound the same and I prefer the Thiel.
@ctsooner is entirely correct. Imagine the attitude most companies would take to the reviewer who panned their product, and to the mag that published it. Are they going to be queuing up to lend other $$$ units for them to review? Likewise other companies, when a reviewer gets a reputation for publishing unfavorable commentary, how many companies are going to risk a review from that person? Reviewers, mags and companies are locked in a symbiotic relationship, wherein the companies provide, rent-free, long-term expensive loaners. How are they going to feel when that gets repaid in a certain way?
BTW, that's why many (not all) reviewers also shy away from comparative reviews. Even if they like product A and B, if they say A is better, what does that do to B's sales? There's only a certain number of punters in the market for that item, and this kind of review can literally sink a product, and occasionally a company.
Paradigm exemplifies a certain "modern" sound apparently aimed for by not a few current speaker companies, large and small, and which has little to do with the long-term, non-fatiguing enjoyment of music.
Finally, even if those models by Thiel and Vandersteen are similar in design (are they?), I greatly doubt they sound anything like the same.
What is interesting for me on these A'Gon threads is that the Vandersteen threads usually have the same participants and other speaker threads tend to have a variety of participants. This thread for example has people who like the Personas and others who dislike them.
I have heard various Vandersteen's demoed by the big man himself, maybe 4 or 5 times and I have never had the urge to buy them. Different strokes or maybe they are mid-fi.
If I did not unexpectedly get rammed with a huge tax payment last week I would have bought a used year old Thiel 3.7 over a Vandersteen Treo CT that I recently heard. These 2 lines are supposed to be similar in design though I find they sound different. Again is one mid-fi or different strokes?
Guys, reviewers for major mags are never going to pan a product. IT's not politically correct and if they did, designers wouldn't want to share their gear. I love reading reviews and mags etc, but never to chose what to purchase. I'd rather listen adn figure that out myself. It's probably why I don't own what the main stream tells everyone what's best (I guess Vandersteen's are popular, but not as popular as Magico, B&W, Wilson etc..)
As for Paradigm being mid fi, I would agree with that also. Much of the mid fi has brighter highs in order to be 'heard' and sold in stores. Much of the high end is also a bit bright to MY ears too and I think it's the same reason. They want to stand out in the store. I liken it to turning up the OLED TV's on the floor of box stores as bright as possible so they stand out in the florescent lighting. If that's what folks wants and call high end, that's fine as that's what they want. It's not a negative, but so many who like that seem to feel they have to justify it or say it's not so.
The discussion on the will never change. It's a design decision.
PS good reviews can be bought by companies just for advertising in their magazine. And you can see paradigm ads everywhere.Notice monitor audio doesn't splash ads everywhere to get good reviews.
I and many others have heard the PreSonus speakers and we've all said that they sound very bright forward and edgy because of that beryllium Tweeter and beryllium mid-range. they're not an all-out assault on anything high-end paradigm has always been a mid fi speaker company they're trying to get into the high-end not very successfully though when dealers of paradigm persona are saying there bright and edgy got to be saying something doesn't it. Great for home theatre not so much for music not very neutral and natural-sounding.
That’s mainly due to the directivity differences between the speakers, so obviously they will sound different. On-axis FR is almost identical, with the main difference being there’s an additional bump in the 500-1000Hz range in the Personas, which will give an additional slight "honk" to the sound signature.
Paradigm Personas have almost an identical frequency response to Bowers & Wilkens 7 and 8 series. It shouldn’t be rocket science to figure out what they were going for. It’s only odd because Paradigm’s last generation series were extremely neutral so it's definitely a change in philosophy for them.
I read this review and while its a great review there’s a huge amount of space devoted to oblique statements referencing a need for speaker manufacturers to include tweeter level controls al la Revel to tilt the top end up or down 3 db. And actually I will say the Revel control on the back of the Salon2s functions very well in that regard. So I think its a good statement to make independent of the review but there were quite a view veiled statements referencing the slightly hot tonal balance on the Personas. The speakers are incredible true I agree but I do wonder why Paradigm voiced them this way. They measure in room (at least in my room) the same way they measure in the couple of reviews out there where measurements were taken. Of course its true that we don’t listen to measurements and I will say that they don’t sound as tilted up on the top end as the graph indicates. Still...you wonder why couldn’t that large lump centered around 10K be engineered out of this otherwise spectacular highly resolving speaker? And yes, so many of our rooms are a bit over damped or under damped and even with room treatment while we can try to address that it actually WOULD be nice if more speakers would come with a tweeter level control similar to what Revel/Harman/Samsung puts on the (overrated to me) Salon 2s.
A minor correction quoting Sanders: "I don't understand why don't every one uses large mid range drivers (large electrostatic panel accomplishes this), active crossovers (I forgot few things he mentioned here :( ) and room correction, it is just physics".
Also want to state that I am long time Paradigm Studio 40v3 user.
Pound to pound Paradigm Persona 9H will be similar to Legacy Aeris at 50% of the price. Both are serious about room correction but you also get a DAC and preamp for free, again at little more than 50% of price. Aeris has both a 4" Tweeter with 1" super Tweeter. Good engineering and some custom correction is need to make all the drivers sing at the same time in a given room so good to know both consider room correction seriously (Legacy does correction in more than one dimension, if I understand right).
But yes price does not matter if you think Persona sounds way better than any other speaker. But at $35K+ there just just so many options.
I personally liked Sanders system around ~$17k at RMAF 2018 for the price and what I can hear in the room. It just did not pass the WAF factor and also the limited sweet sport worries (frankly I always sit in the sweet spot so I don't care:), don't all speakers have limited sweet spot? anyways?. ). What Sanders said in person stuck in my brain, he said something like this "I don't understand why every one use large mid range drivers, active crossovers and room correction, it is just physics".
So yeah there is no magic or audiophool voodoo!, there are only trade offs and applying good science (called engineering). Bill @ Legacy is cut from the same cloth I think, so are many engineers who strive to build good speakers.
At anything above $10k I (personally me) would have a good return policy in place, just in case if you not fully convinced yet. Just do some extensive A/B testing if you can, like using same/matching electronics and doing simple things like SPL match before playing same tracks etc. And listen to what you like. Room and room correction can play a very big role, just be aware of it.
Just don't listen to anyones opinion(reviews) about Paradigm or other speakers. Listen for yourself and focus on controlled experiment(s) the best you can and make up your mind without bias and be happy with your decision.
Pass are excellent amps. As for using digital or analog to EQ, I'm in the camp of analog still being much better. I've personally heard some of the top brands that use DSP in one form or another and I don't like it. I do hear the difference and it changes the sound and ruins coherency. I'm not the only one who feels that way. I've spoken to dealers, manufactures as well as reviewers who also feel that digital EQ still isn't where it needs to be. Kind of like the way it's taken digital formats to sound close to vinyl.
I moved up from Treo's to Quatro's due to wanting the bass EQ. I have noticed a huge difference in my room with the EQ.
I personally (I've done this) go audition the speakers you like and go with them. When I audition, I totally tune out the salesperson. I ask them not to speak during my auditioning and to give me the remote. Too often they will play with the volume during the audition. I've seen that at MANY dealers and it pisses me off.
You seem to have a really nice rig going. I love the Aesthetix pre amps. Just a great value in tubes. I owned their phono stage when I was able to play vinyl.
My feelings on the Persona's haven't changed. I've auditioned them at many stores now and they have always sounded the same to my ears. They, like other Paradigm's are tipped up on top. I own a pair as I"ve said many times. They lack coherency. Every dealer always says 'you haven't heard them in my store and my set up is the best". I went to Dave's and they sounded that same to me as they have elsewhere. Folks can always say things aren't set up properly for whatever reason they want, but in the end, I've found that gear has a sound signature no matter the set up. Many folks love a highly dynamic speaker like Wilson or the Paradigm's and that's awesome. I say go get them and enjoy your music as that's the only thing that matters anyways.
If you love the Paradigm's, then go for it and enjoy them, but make sure you listen to others in your range. JMHO
I am interested in the Paradigm Persona 9H and am just wondering if anyone has any feelings about how they would mate with Pass on the power amp duties and Aesthetix on preamp duties (the rest of the system is a Direcstream, a microrendu and a nice vinyl rig). I’m thinking if anything the Persona’s sound like they would be a little clinical so maybe the Pass on the top end would warm them up a bit but obviously they don’t need that much power (its an x150.8 presently driving Thiel 2.4s.) Obviously I LIKE a slightly clinical highly detailed sound since I've been living with the Thiels about about 10 years. I like the idea of bass frequencies which you can room correct the same way I like the feature on Vandersteens but on the Paradigm you're dealing with DSP rather than analog eq. Thoughts?
Old time audiophile here. IMHO there are many excellent speakers available for all kinds of tastes. I personally would not buy Paradigm speakers in the price range being discussed in this thread. A lot of guys that can afford a $35k speaker wouldn’t even consider them regardless of sound quality due to prior marketing position. I’m making no personal judgement but have bought and sold too much audio gear to be comfortable trying to resell them at some point. Just an opinion and nothing more.
One things also stands out to me. Often when any of us talks about how great our gear is, we will talk about how great a reviewer thinks they are. Personally, I've known many reviewers over the years and some I respect and like. Even if my tastes are different than theirs, I get to know HOW they listen and can sift through that to figure out what my thoughts may be on the product.
What I like about the personal audio folks is that their reviewers will say what they paid for the product or if it was given to them for free or at a steep discount. That said of all the guys I know (many) who review there, they are as honest as the day is long. They will point out where the compromises were made by a dealer. They point out good and bad and let you make your choices based on that.
That used to be the way things were in the 70's. The Absolute Sound never had to run ads. You just paid and got a neat little 'magazine' every other month or so I think it was. Then all of a sudden other 'hi end' magazines came in and there were ads taken. You couldn't find really negative reviews at that point. Also, brands that didn't buy ads in various mags wouldn't get reviewed much of the time. Some reviewers care about the hobby as well as the customers. Fremer comes to mind as do a few others.
One of the reviewers, Tom Gillet used to drive me nuts. He's a creative writers, but he also is the Audio Cheapskate, Sam Tellig (Gillet spelled backwards). I laughed when he left Stereophile a couple of years ago and went public about how advertisers would pay for ads and they could get good reviews. Again, not ALL reviewers are like that, but this is why you never see a bad review in that magazine or any of it's online sites. Heck the ad manager of Stereophile is/was Atkinson's wife.
Again, some folks I personally like and respect, buy all too many I don't, but that's just me. Reading this thread made me think about that.
This is why it's so important to go audition at a few places an figure out your flavor. What do you like? Dont' let a dealer talk during the audition constantly. Listen and trust your own ears. Afterwards, you can invite the dealer in and get their thoughts. Listen with them and have them point out all the things they love about the product and why you should buy it. Just keep in mind that you are the one who has to listen to it daily, lol. I'm sure everyone already knows all of this, but it never hurts to read it again.
Not that that list put the argument at rest but when Audiophile compiled a list of 25 best speaker of all time Paradigm signature 8s were #7 and the list actually has all the usual suspects of exotics, and thats again the older signature Paradigms not Personas. Magico and Focal brag about having Beryllium tweeters and the persona has its mid range built of that material let alone the tiny tweeter. The high end audio sales people usual line when ask for picking a favorite among two or three comparable speakers is " they are two different speakers". You don’t get an straight answer not just because there may not be one, but because they don’t want to. When money is not an issue, you WANT to pay more, for bragging rights alone sometimes. If you already have spent money enough to buy a new Porsche, on a pair of speakers, you are never gonna admit that a mid level brands speakers are better than your exotics. You can hide the truth but you cant kill it. Lies, well you know how that work. Will post my review after getting my new Personas, after not being satisfied with the detailed audition new B&W D3s and many other "high end" (Audio Note, anyone) products. Currently have Martin Logan and Paradigm signatures in a Dolby Atmos set up and yes B&W 800s used to be my dream speakers and I was reviewing Focal Sopras and Revel Ultimas ( undoubtedly worthy choices ) too but these new Personas came as a game changer.
Troy , you are a good guy and no dummy . I sold Audio in early 70’s for one of the biggest dealers in USA. For example, he was biggest Sansui dealer in the world . He also sold TV and picked some thing new on the market, Apple Computers . I knew audio was over when a yuppy couple asked me what computer should they buy for their 5 year-old .And they cost a LOT in those days .
The huge audio sales of the 60’s and 70"s were a function of what was" cool’ at the time. it was never about the music itself . I doubt if 10% of the American public see music as something really important in their life and maybe 2% could not live without it . In the 30’s and 40’s I grew up in, radio was it , some form of jazz was the national binding material because there was nothing else. Still it was essentially social in nature .People had no problem in 50’s switching from big-band to garbage, in a years time it was gone from the airwaves becuse this IS a mass society, not a community . Acoustic music fans are old, a rock concert is a social event not a musical event , if it were the latter the audience would NEVER stand up and wave their hands in unison , reminds me of a Nazi rally . People lack thoughts of their own, the void is filled by ones manufactured for them by others .. And they don’t even know it .
Thanks Shubert. I unfortunately have to agree with you.
If you look at the other side of technology, every year many people will ditch their 1 year old Iphone or Android at $600-800 or more a pop and replace it with the new improved models.
If you add it up many people spend $5k and more for their phones not including the $100-200 a month to use them.
Or how many kids have $5-10k spent on video games.
We are doing a piss poor job of getting new blood in the industry.
Ctsooner, I am happy to see we do agree on that. You also seem like a passionate guy who loves his gear and after reading some of your threads I agree with some of what you say.
There are some terrific dealers out there, and some where the people are nice but their setups are just okay and others where the sound is just plain lousy. The point I was making when you mentioned hearing the Personas at another dealer was how their setup and matching equipment was totally different then ours, and perhaps you would have a different take on the speakers after hearing our setup, I also said maybe not.
Personal taste is just that, personal. I am also not saying that the Personas are the greatest speakers on the world.
What I have said is that the speakers can and do compare with many of the best products out there and in some ways transparency and holography may outperform some of the other brands in those areas.
You have also seen how we were attacked by a certain member for saying that.
Several members who heard the other contenders agree with us and subsequently bought the Persona speakers.
Personally I don't care if someone likes a different product than what I am representing, what I want is for someone who is considering making a purchase find a dealer hopefully a good one and get a demo of these products and be open to exploring something new which may be better and perhaps be even a better value.
What I said in one of the other threads, was after finding the T+A gear which was compared to the crazy expensive CH Precision gear, by the TAS you would think that some of the members would have expressed interest in finding out where they could hear that product.
To date just one guy is going to hear the T+A stuff after reading our posts, and for the record that guy is in CA for we are not benefiting.
If that was me, and someone told me there was an amp for $19k expensive but somewhat doable, that compared to $120k of very respected and very expensive Swiss gear, I know I would have been on the phone the next day to find out who in the country sold that product.
Can you imagine how dull the industry would be if no one championed these new and sometimes better products?
To wit if you have been following these threads you will see some of the remarkably incendiary comments directed at me and the product.
It is this small mindedness, and brand snobbery that gets my goat.
Since I have been going to the Audio Doctor shop since the late nineties they have had a number of great sounding reference speakers, Dave moves into and out of brands in the pursuit of the best possible products, and I am sure if he could find a line that represents better sound quality, engineering and fair pricing he would add that line as well.
I know it seems that I am pushing hard, you would push hard, in the face of being attacked by a certain member, that doesn't like the store owner, because he dared to "sell to him at a show and that same guy is pissed at me because I invaded a Wilson thread."
As per invading that thread, I made one comment on how the Personas would work well in his small room and save the guy $20k and I got lambasted for that, that lead to a lengthy exchange to support my position and to support my friend.
What is refreshing to see is how we have gotten support from a number of people here who are understanding our position.
There is a tremendous amount of negativity and brand elitism shown on these threads.
People shouldn't care what brand of gear they are using it is the sound that should matter, with that being said, what we are being guilty of I have seen other members spouting the same rhetoric about the products that they endorse, over and over again.
i look forward to meeting you at the shop someday and we can finally play some music together.
Troy, I understand your point. Yes, Matt loves the Davinci as well he should. We each know how the other hears and speak often as you know. He has great things to say about you guys. I know that who ever his sales guy is went out of his way for him. Yes, any piece of gear will sound different in any system. Set up is critical as is the room. I"ve always said that. Your set up may be the best and I'ms sure you have spent a ton of money on the set up based on what you have posted. I'm not fighting with you or saying that the speaker isn't great. Yes, I love the Vandersteen sound when set up properly and not so much when it's not. I do know that I've always liked them in any of the rooms I"ve heard them so far and that's a lot of rooms. I was like that with Avalon back in the day, but couldn't afford them at the time. I'm picky as heck. If I have to add that much stuff to my listening room to make the speakers sound like I want them to, then I'm out. That's not a cut as many who can afford a 30k plus speaker can afford to redo their rooms. I don't have dedicated room, so the Paradigms just aren't for me. Again, not a cut at all.
I was pulled into this thread without knowing about it or wanting to know about it, so I have expressed my views. Will I come down to listen to your gear in your shop? If I have the time of course I will. The next stop in Jersey for me is Matt's and then to a reviewers home (can't turn down invites to hear gear that I may never get to hear). I love your passion for your store and your products, but to be frank (not trying to be a jerk), it just seems like you are pushing too hard. The number one point you make we TOTALLY agree on is that folks need a good dealer who they trust. They then need to LISTEN and not sit and talk during an audition (when I do this I really after the fact that the system never drew me into the music, so I talk). Then they need to trust their own ears and make the decisions they make. Again, I"m not trying to put anything you have or do down as I don't want to be that guy, even though it's hard sometimes when writing opinions. Thanks Troy.
As per any of the bigger makers making anything they want that isn't true, the first issue is intent, the second is engineering prowess, and the third is having the budget to spend the money on R&D, just because a company is large doesn't mean they will go to the elaborate steps that Paradigm did to produce the Persona series which cost $4million dollars in R&D funds.
Sony is a very large company way larger then Paradigm, and their reference speakers were rather tame in terms of pushing technology and they were also around $30k a pair!
The Paradigms Persona series will play whatever you want through them they are superb speakers that are totally neutral. They will ultimately sound like whatever you use with them.
Do they sound good for rock, yes they do as the speakers play loud with out compression, however, we play Jazz and classical on ours and they sound great no matter what is depends way more on the gear you are using and the music you are playing on them.
The speakers have tremendous resolution so garbage in garbage out.
Paradigm's loudspeakers have always been able to play loud and have been known for good bass and clean top end.
I would say that the lower end Prestige series is more like what you describe but not the Personas.
As per grabbing the wall street money, the Persona series starts at $7k a pair so that is what we would say affordable for a lot of music lovers who don't work on wall street.
Paradigms were always voiced for rock , a wise market strategy. Any of these bigger makers can make anything they want, Paradigm just wanted to get some of the Wall St bubble money while the getting was good .
Dear Gabmetz, Thank you and you get it. Incidently I agree with you, we had the $120k Kharmas in our shop, as well as the Polymer Research MKX-s quite amazing speakers by the way, we also sell the Kef Blades.
Ctsooner just because you heard them at Bernies in Newington, doesn't mean anything, it means you don't like what you heard at Bernies, it doesn't mean you won't be amazed at hearing our setup or maybe not amazed but you may find that our setup is one of the most realistic systems you will ever hear and that is without first order slope speakers or you still may not like the speakers as much as your beloved Vandys.
What I said in another post was the boss, Dave drove out to another dealer to hear the speakers and was not impressed with their setup, but he heard their potential so he took the leap of faith and ordered a set.
Everyone's setup room and gear are different, our room is 26 by 20 with a 10 foot ceiling, I stopped in to that dealer you spoke of many years ago to check out their Magico setup and I don't think they had one large sound room in their entire facility, many dealers don't.
We are using $50k worth of T+A electronics, a Light Harmonic Davinci, $35k, a Baetis Music Computer, $15k and all Enklein cables prices vary, our room features Shakti Holographs, Acoustic System Resonators, Echo Buster Pannels and Stein Harmonizers to name a few of things we are doing to make the speakers perform optimally.
We got a demo of the Isoacoustics Gaia and they were amazing and made a huge improvment.
So you have to understand my point which I have made many times before each dealers setup is different we tried a lot of good electronics including Conrad Johnson, Devialet, Electrocompaniet, Thrax, Chord before we found the T+A gear was better then all the rest.
I don't know Bernie and I am not saying he is getting the same sound better or worse then we are getting, I recommend that you finally come here and meet with Dave and myself and hear our reference system for yourself.
Your friend in NJ just purchased a Light Harmonic Davinci based on one of our setups in his home, we don't move into new lines casually, we test and listen and test.
We did compare the Davinci to EMM Labs DA2, the Berkly Reference 2 and a DCS Rossini, and in our demo system the Davinci was much more musically satisfying.
I agree that we all hear differently and like different speakers and amps etc... That's a given. I too have heard tons of the speakers spoken about on the boards and personally have my favorites (not only Vandersteen's as some think, lol). I was one of the first in the US to hear the 9H's (at Bernie's in Newington). They weren't burned in as it was the first stop of their US tour. I then heard them again a few other times now as many are starting to carry them.
They are nice, but for ME don't compete with a few of the speakers I like that cost a bit less, so they wouldn't be a starter. I have heard them burned in and set up properly in a good room etc... When folks ask me what speakers they should go listen to, they are on my list as there will be some who love the sound of them. I'd own them over some of the big name speakers that are in this range and above, but there I PERSONALLY don't see them as punching above their price range. Again, that's my personal view and there are many who feel that way. Conversely, I've spoken to a few who love them and may purchase them. I guess that's why I like the net as I can speak with others offline about our hobby and it helps me keep an open mind on components.
We all are passionate over some specific brands. Some, because they sell them and make a living at it. That doesn't mean they don't truly love what they are selling. I am one of those who doesn't listen to sales folks IRT how anything sounds. Never have and that's why I go listen to as much gear as I can. That doesn't mean I won't start with what a dealer will say, but I can't tell you how many folks I see in stores being led around like lemmings by a sales person in auditions.
With that said, it doesn't matter as long as people are happy with their decisions, but based on the used market, I don't think that's happening as much as it should, but that's just my opinion. I'm glad sales guys are on the board posting. Heck, I have learned a few things about my Ayre QX5/20 by a sales guy in Chicago and I've never met him. I've shared things with him that he didn't know and hopefully he's been able to use that info to help others when guiding them to purchases.
I think when sales people post on threads like this with strong opinions on what they are selling, there will be a large contingent who are skeptical and will call them out depending on how they purse their responses. I do know of a few dealers who use shills to help them sell and it's too bad. Some of us post about favorite dealers we know and use. I post often about Rutan in NJ, but I love Mike at Suncoast in Sarasota and I have done business with Ralph at Take 5 in New Haven since opened in 78. I love Bruce at Stereo Unlimited in SD and few can set up a system like Joe Heusi in Houston. There are many more I like and respect and will send folks to for auditions. Only two of the ones I mention even post on boards and when they do, there usually isn't a firestorm like this thread has become. Just an observation and neither negative nor positive.
Wow... I don't even know where to begin. Why can't everyone accept the fact that there are different speakers for everyone. There is no such thing as an end all be all speaker. What's even more comical is people bashing speakers they have never even owned or based on brand name alone. I've been in the audio industry for 18 years and I've heard every speaker imaginable. Paradigm makes a damn good speaker and the persona is a statement piece that DOES compete favorably to speakers in a much high price bracket. Attacking people because they believe in them such as Audiotroy is kinda crazy. He just sounds like a passionate sales guy who actually believes in what he sells. I respect that. I haven't read one of his responses where he hasn't invited someone to just listen to them and judge for themselves. I've owned Rockports, magicos, focal, revel etc but guess what I have in my listening room? A brand new pair of Persona 9Hs. Why? Because they sound better to me! Sound is so subjective. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. I've never heard a speaker at 35k that sounded better to me. As a matter of fact I've never heard a speaker under 100k I've liked better. I've heard them all... that's my opinion. I don't care what logo they have on them and why should I. We buy speakers for their sound not their logo. Most companies logos are meaningless anyway (klipsh, definitive tech, polk) to name a few all started as good speakers that sold their soul and now are mass market junk that are no longer engineered and voiced by true audio guys (Sandy gross, Matthew polk, Paul Klipsch). All these personal attacks on people voicing their opinions and displaying their passions need to stop. We are all adults and should be able to discuss grown man toys without the non-sense.
I really don't want to get into a pissing contest with you, but your response to a simple question, which IMHO is way over the top, is why you are getting dinged by numerous posters.
one of the keys to dialog between people of differing points of view is that each listen to the other. We all know your point of view regarding the Paradigms--you have repeated it without much change in many of your responses. I heard it loud and clear, so please no more.
However you seem to not hear the way you are pushing this point of view is upsetting many, or if you do hear their message, you seem not to care how repeating yourself will influence how they react to you.
Also, Cordesman is listed as a senior writer, not Editor in Chief.
The reviewer is the editor in chief. The review was an unquestioned rave and the speakers the 9H was compared to were the almost twice the price Magicos and the Legacy Aeris about $10k less.
We are a Legacy dealer, and will be getting our display pair of Aerius later in the Year, We have heard them at shows.
The 9H is a much more holographic loudspeaker with greater clarity then the Aerius, if you are looking for a gigantic sound with a warmer midrange the Aerius are very hard to beat.
As per why the Personas weren't yet in the top 10 who knows, except,that the top ten may have a lot to do with how many other reviewers have heard the same speakers with the Persona series being so new it is doubtful that many other reviewers have spent the time with the product that Mr. Cordesman has.
The Personas were in the Editors choice issue.
So who knows what politics or policies these guys follow.
If by your questioning why they aren't in the issue as something is wrong with the product I can assure you the Persona series is starting to get raves reviews on all who hear them, they like all reference speakers will be subject to personal opinion and taste and because the speakers have such tremendous resolution will be more dependent on system matching then more recessed speakers or ones without this level of resolution.
The same argument can be said for those guys who love Raal Ribbon tweeters or JM Labs products or B&W Diamond series, whenever you have a speaker which had remarkably extended treble the speakers can sound terrific or bright depending on system matching.
Our Legacy Signature setup for example is super musical not quite the same degree of treble clarity but instead a huge, warm, layered sound with just a bit less detail then the Persona sound which is why they sound so appealing to so many people.
So again, it all comes down to personal taste and system matching.
The Persona series are remarkable in so many ways and will continue to challenge the status quo for now and for many years in the future.
So I finally got around to reading the review in their free (sponsored) recommended speakers for 2017. While the review was good, I couldn’t help but notice that the Paradigms did not make the "Top Pick" list for speakers > $10k. In fact a number of the speakers listed haven’t been even been reviewed in several years and my .02 is a lot of the same ones recurring year after year on the list. More to the point, I wonder if the reviewer is a lone voice regarding the Paradigms among the editorial staff.
Ctsooner, I didn't say it isn't possible to make a good speaker using a first order slope, I said many engineers won't due to the multitude of problems inherent in a first order design as per expensive, it is is also expensive and in some ways more to build a steeper slope as you will need to spend more money on a more elaborate crossover with more elements.
Any good engineer will work on phase related issues by tweaking their crossover slopes and by building in compensation networks, so you can electrically delay the summed output of the drivers to create a wave launch which will be close to being in perfect phase even by using a steeper slopes, and as I mentioned there has been a ton of great speakers that are not time and phase aligned or are time aligned but not phase aligned. So great sound is much more than just building a time and phase aligned design.
Our camp, of Paradigm Personas lovers, including Tpinto, which is now an owner of these magnificent speakers, is trying to raise awareness of how fantastic these speakers are and you said you heard them before, but not at our shop, so you may have a different opinion when you hear them at our shop. It took us weeks to get them sounding right, not to mention having the right matching equipment, I have no idea where you heard them and the competency of that store's setup, so why don't you come here and judge for yourself?
When Dave heard them at their first North American tour, he did not like them, either. We discussed this matter at length, our choice to bring them in was that he felt they had potential to sound good, this particular dealer only had mid priced electronics and cables, and did not clearly have the correct gear to present the speakers properly.
In all of my posts, I never said that the speakers weren't anything other then a contender and may do things as well or in some ways better than the other sacred cow brands.
When I related our experience in actually having some very exotic and expensive brands and products in comparison to the Personas's the thread broke up in a tit for tat between myself and another member on the Wilson forum who is not getting that this is how we test and how we know in our experience just how good the Personas are did we test them vs everything no but we have been around the block.
What I was trying to do, was not to hijack that thread but to point out to the OP that there was an alternative that he should check out, that he might like and would work well in his room and cost less than an Alexia.
So that is "selling" it seems to me that is about helping a guy to consider an option he wasn't thinking about. The only way that would have been selling if the poster was in our territory and visited our shop and then purchased a pair from us. I don't think that really happens much here as this is a big country, and Paradigm has dealers in the other states.
By that same token all of you Vandy guys should have also chimed in on that same post, and let that man also know that he should consider the Vandy 5A as they also have room eq and boundary compensation,and they cost the same as the Sashas.
It may be their size and shape that made the Vandys not desirable to the guy who bought the Sashas or it could be the sound or a zillion other reasons.
The fact are in and I agree with Tpinto, the new Persona Line represents some incredible engineering at affordable price points and should be auditioned by anyone looking at high performance speakers.
I know of no other brand to offer such advanced driver technology for a set of speakers which start at $7k a pair and that is just one of the reasons the Paradigms should be a must audition product, whether or not someone likes them better than brand x is up to the listener.
My invitation stands if you want to meet me, our new friends Kuppe and Fixbin1, and Dave you are more then welcome and come to the shop and actually hear our setups, and to judge for yourself.
Who knows you might actually like what you hear.
As per selling on Ctstooner, I see your name everywhere clearly proselytizing the merits of Vandersteen and Ayre, either way you could be considered in the same way zealotry is selling, I would also think that from anyone seeing your posts.
You will also note that in any of my posts I have made it clear that I don't think Paradigms, ATC, or any other of the many lines of products the store sells are better, than any other brand, I said we prefer them and they may compete and in some ways may be better than brand X, while you clearly seem to state that like the great Peter Montecreif, all else is boat anchors, meaning that only Vandersteens are accurate and musical in in some way is a better speaker than brand X, Vandersteens, are very fine speakers, some people love them and purchase them , while many other people do not, they are not better than any other brand of speaker you may think so and that is your reality and your choice, the entire industry is made up of people who embrace Focal, Wilson, Magico, Monitor Audio, Spendor, and many other brands there are over 300 brands of speakers out there.
People are on those "supposed" quality brands for a reason. That is, those brands have stood the test of time, are of quality build and have won accolades from reviewers and most important of the consumers who buy them. I'm not looking down on the Persona's as I have not yet heard them. The Persona's deserve a audition, not pedestal placement. I think you will get a better assessment of Paradigm''s new baby when it has grown up in a while. Then some years down the road you will know where they stand with the masses....
Glad you are happy with your purchase, but honestly, there is no best in class. Only best for whomever owns them. That's the reality. Looks too are subjective also. That's reality.
As I posted on a Paradigm forum on another board, they are nice speakers. I have heard them enough times to make a good judgment for MYSELF. I'm glad they got a nice review, but just like reviews for Vandersteen's (my market winner) they are from reviewers in their system and should be taken that way. It's a great start to a search, but a great review does not really 'validate' any component. We all want our own buyers validation though and it comes out in many peoples post, including mine. That's human nature and isn't changing anytime soon.
BTW Troy, you really need to go back and read your post about first order crossovers. A few of the things you say are true of them, but they can be done properly, it's just that it's so hard and very expensive to do. Vandersteen, Avalon and a few others over the years have done a great job and not that the tech can support it even better, you can get some great speakers using it.
Sell on as that's how your posts come across. Sorry, but they really do and they don't have to. There are many dealers who are on these boards and they aren't selling like you seem to do (off the board I've spoken with others who feel the same way I do, but they don't post and before you ask, only a couple own Vandersteen's or Ayre or Basis or any other gear that I love. I actually told one to go to the local store here to audition the 9h's as he's in this price range.).
Overall it's the best effort by Paradigm and if it wasn't for Vandersteen's, I'd have brought a pair home to see how it worked in my room even though my wife hates how they look (she want's zero drivers to ever show), but it's still kind of my room, lol.
Wow! I purchased the Persona 9H speakers and their's nothing pretentious here. On the contrary, people best get off the supposed quality names of Magico, Focal, Rockports, and legacysetc. They might want to pay attention to what Paridymn accomplished. They are certainly the new bench mark for their price segment, and possibly those other brands that simply can't out perform the Persona's. Either the retailer isn't carrying this incredible line of speakers, and bias to their brands or margins. Paridymn hit a home run, and not only in performance, but aesthetics. They have bragging rights and vanity is synonymous too. They will own this market segment, and steal from the higher priced segments. Hey, I'm just a music lover, my validion and accolades come from simply being a consumer. Do yourself a favor and listen to the 9H floor speakers. Honestly, a real work of art. I also purchased their bookshelves for rears......real music to my ears. The entire system including the center channel makes for a magnificent soundstage.
To go back to the original question, I also read the review of the new Paradigm speaker. I have read many reviews written by Anthony Cordesman over the years I respect him very much. Having said that, just listen to your own ears and get the speakers that you like the best, and for a price that it is worth it to you. Then, be happy!
I think the point of the thread was to let people know that the review on the Persona's has validated what many people who have heard these speakers setup correctly already know. Paradigm has arrived in the uber speaker club and should be considered by anyone shopping for great speakers.
As per a time and phase aligned speaker being the only right speaker is poppy cock, There are many engineers that will not build first order crossovers due to the intrinsic demands that they make on the drivers employing overlapping frequencies, and the power handling demands placed on the drivers which then limit dynamics and causing greater distortion at higher spls, due to the greater bandwidth necessitated by these designs causing increased heating of the voice coils which adds distortion, add lobbing effects lat the pass band, and these kinds of designs also have serious trade offs to offset the advantages in just preserving time coherency.
However, not all listeners are sensitive to time related effects and a rooms interaction with a set of speakers in terms of setting overall diffraction and reverberation times, usually create more adverse time related distortions than if a speaker better tracks a microphone because the wave launch of the drivers is all in phase, vs not being in phase in the first place.
In the annuls of audio you have had great speakers with all different types of crossover designs:
The legendary JSE infinite slope, the famous Spica TC 50 which combined a first order and fourth order crossover slope, The Infinity IRS, The Infinity RS 1B whiich employed I think third order and second order slopes. the Quad ESL, and ESL 63, The Wilson Watt Puppy, and many, many more.
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