Anyone here with Magico A3 driven by Bel Canto Ref600's?
Contemplating the A3's and would like to know if the REF600M will drive them properly. Currently using Martin Logan Montis and these aren't a great indication of what these amps can and will do.
Magicos are not overrated, what you heard was obviously not set up right or matched to the appropriate gear, the Magico S5 we have on our floor are stunning sounding, and one of best speakers I have ever heard regardless of cost.
Tgun, I reckon I amm2 years late into the discussion. i own the Bel Canto Ref 600 driving MBL Speakers and they certainly can drive them as good or better than any of the Class A/B amplifiers I have heard.
I have paired the speakers with a well known European Class A integrated as well as push pull 100 w tube amplifiers . These Bel Cantos do not sound unlike the other older ones..I am quite sensitive to high frequency pitch and once ran away fm a hi Fi shop which was running a class d amp.. but that was 15 years ago. The Ref 600’s do not have this problem.They are extremely musical and they do benefit from the addition of a tube pre amp, which is also the case with most solid state amplifiers.
The coda have a huge soundstage depends on how you are feeding the amps preamp and dac affect soundstaging wr go bricasti m3 direct to coda sounds exceptional
I have a question for Audio Troy can the Coda No 8 stereo amp image as good as ref 600 monos. Steven be Stone said they were exceptional at this same as Pass 150.5! Btw I'm a sucker for holographic imaging!😆
To add some fuel to the fire here. I don't have the Magico speakers but I do own the Theta Prometheus class D monos and also have, First Watt J2 and F6 and Pass 30.8 also have the Decware Zen triode tube amp. I feed mine directly from a DCS Rossini DAC/clock. I've had many an amp and no way does the Class D get stomped all over as Audio Troy says. I agree that they might sound a touch drier than the others but still I am always a little surprised how good they do when I put them back in the system. I have been going back and forth with these amps for months also switching in and out some different speakers. For me it kind of depends on the music and the volume as to what I prefer. I understand the though behind not wanting space heaters in the room, that is what drew me to class D. If that is a high priority then Class D is pretty good. I had a Coda TS400 and a Krell Duo 300 and I'd take the Theta Class D over either of those amps on sonics alone. I have a friend who has some Bel Canto Ref 600 amps that sound very good and smooth at his system as well. If I was choosing amps on sound alone I probably wouldn't go class D but if heat and power consumption was in any way important I would choose them and never look back. They do sound good and as AudioTroy says you can flavor their sound with upstream gear.
tgun5 - despite the frustration you had to go thru, this thread provided many good insights. I am a bel canto ref 1000M MkII owner and am considering upgrading as I buy a Magico S5 MkII pair. It will be useful to hear your current views on the A3/600m combo if you still have that setup. i may go to Black EX level, but will appreciate any advice. Also would add that the Ef 1000m Mk II are fantastic, i have truly enjoyed them all these years. i think a lot of ppl dissing class D amps have no real experience and are ignorant.
I am using the Bel Canto ref 600s to drive MBL speakers . These are fantastic amplifiers and way better than the earlier versions of Class D amps. a tube pre helps. I have tried various solid state amps with these speakers.. I reckon that the combo will beat most class AB amps and even push pull tube amps.
Follow-up on the combination. I've surpassed 300 hours on the Magico's and the Bel Canto's drive them spectacularly. The bass is well controlled, defined, and tight. These speakers really highlight the capabilities of these amps, rather than the opposite as some have suggested. Couldn't be happier!
Reading this thread while listening to "Famous Blue Raincoat" by Jennifer Warnes with Bel Canto Ref 600Ms and Talon Khorus X, VTL 7.5 pre. Mccormack deluxe universal player. Sounds great. 3D soundstage, detailed. The Bel Cantos replaced tube 450s. The tubed amps sounded different than the Bel Cantos. I loved those tubed amps. I also love the BCs. Was worried because of Class D phobia, but found that the VTL 7.5 with CBS CHYRO 12Au7s sounds incredible.
I don’t think that AudioTroy are as terrible as some on here are claiming, as we all know, strident opinions are commonplace on audiogon. Though I can’t help hearing in my head two guys speaking in unison every time I read their posts. It sounds like one entity. Just slightly creepy.
My impression is that it would depend on your musical preference. I have Magico S1's and used to run it on a class D amp. It was great for rock or pop music but was wanting for classical. In particular, richness and delicacy of violins were absent in the setup with class D. Now I pair the Magico's with Jadis I50 tube amp and this setup brings a richness to the music. Violins are better but still not what I hope it to be. I have heard the A3's paired with Jadis I88 and I think the sound is more detailed but thinner that with the S1s.
Devialet and Magico is not my taste either because it is better for rock and less for classical.
So, what kind of music do you listen to and what kind of sound do you want to get from your system?
It's sad that there are so many small dealers/sellers here that hi-jack threads for their own purpose. Other than a few constructive answers, I'm really sorry to have started another discussion on Audiogon.
I have many Hi-Fi friends and industry acquaintances who refuse to post or answer posts here - primarily because of these narcissistic audiophiles.. It's a shame because all of them could bring vast experience to the forums.
I've been here since 2000 and have only posted 130 times. It's because most conversations go sideways and get ugly like this one. I don't particularly like to argue or defend my position when asking for help. For this reason it will probably be another few years before I post again.
Nice 😎another hot discussion around class D amps 🍿🍿🍿 btw, after reading so many reviews of Magico speakers, went to hear them for the first time in 2016( don’t remember the model number but it was a big one) and become totally disappointed, IMHO totally overrated!
We have a room fulll of amplifiers and have yet to find an amplifier that breaks the addage that you get what you pay for.
Could be but it would be high end armageddon for sure were a dealer to find that.
Most people want value. Having been to various high end audio shows and shops over the years, I’d say that gets harder to establish with certainty with many more costly products. YMMV.
Class D and Magico - no thanks. I recently had the A3s here and they sung as much as every component ahead of it allowed. They were absolutely beautiful with a Diablo 300 - a synergy I'd match against just about anything I've heard including several rungs up the Magico lineup. Have had Magico S3s with Devialet briefly and they were horrible. Literally ear bleeding sterile fast and powerful horrible. Don't have experience with the Bel Canto amp so take it FWIW but just wanted to share that experience. Bel Canto is a great name so I don't know, but if it was anything like what I heard on my S3s, the friend who brought the Devialet over sold it literally that week.
Back to the topic, Stereophile rates the Bel Canto REF600M as Class A with $$$, meaning they are an excellent buy. They have an iron grip on bass, and smooth and silky midrange and top end.
I promised I wouldn't post again but you finally have won me
over! Your arguments are compelling and this is a compilation of what I heard
from all of your posts:
Ok, I'm ready to concede. I'm selling my whole system and
will be buying everything you recommend to replace it. Things are indeed
looking up! Thanks for your help.
I really feel for you man. You asked for help and got an endless, condescending, arrogant, unwanted diatribe. This retailer will not back down even when ask to. Out of the 38 responses, he represents approximately 1/3 of them....unbelievable! My advice is to delete this thread and start a new one. In the new thread heading I would also include 'NO RETAILER COMMENTS PLEASE'. If he continues to invade your thread you might get admin to step in and help....Good luck.
Tigen, Sorry to disappoint, you but we are not trying to sell you anything!
First you state that you have your own opinions and then you throw out to the floor as it will with your questions to see what other people think of the pairing of the Magico A3 with the Bel Cantos.
Either you have your opinions and convictions, or you don’t.
To which we replied the only way you will know if the combo would sound good would be for YOU to try it for yourself, which is pretty sound advice.
Come on man if you owned a store for 15 years you would automatically know that the only way to reliablly predict the outcome of a pairing of a set of speakers and an amplifier is to try that combination and also know that once you have paired amp with speakers you might also need to change cables, or source components or both to create the sound you are looking for.
We told you that unless the other person has the exact same pairing of components and your taste the reply other than "sure it sounds good" is meaningless.
Also as noted the rave review on these amplifier basically stated that a pair of other amplifiers and an older Pass Labs amplifier outperformed this amplifier in certain areas we would guess than that bass control, and dynamics mean much less to you as the reviewer certainly prefered his other amplifiers in these areas.
Then we mentioned a few examples of non Class D amplifers that would give someone fantastic results that were not gigantic space heater amplifiers.
The T+A 2500R is a very compact 140 watt integrated and it runs cool and sound amazing. The Coda .8 runs warm and sounds amazing, even the Anthem STR runs pretty cool and sounds really good, no the Krell 175XD doesn't run that cool but does sound really, really good.
We then said unless it is size, power for dollar or lack of heat why would anyone choose such an amplifier?
As per your friend guess what is wasn’t us, we have not talked with anyone with a Calypso preamp nor do we generally call random audiogon people.
We might ask someone why thy were sellng a product if it is something we think is really good to understand their reasoning and experience considering we no longer sell Plinus and we don’t sell the Calypso preamp therefore why would we call this person?
Also we have had a tremendous amount of experience with Ncore, Hypex, Ice, and other Class D amplifiers.
Good luck Tigen and let us know just how magical the A3 sound with a set of Class D amplifiers.
Again ....still spewing your crap about class D. Let me make it as clear as possible. This ain't about class D or you opinions. It's your need to continue an argument that has long since been over. It's your need to take a simple question and turn it into "I've got a better solution for you" I told you in unequivocal terms that I don't care. I love the amps.
I've got a friend that recently put an ad on audigon selling his Calypso preamp. He received a call from a guy in New Jersey identifying himself as a dealer. He just called to tell my buddy that his opinion was that he should be selling his Plinius amp rather than the Calypso. I would bet money it was you.
My friend was taken back by the whole thing. "Who would have the audacity to do such a thing?" He said.
And this is my point. Don't enter conversations just to just to sell your agenda or show how intelligent you are. I find your posts belittling.
This really is the last post I will make on the subject. Feel free, however, to waste more time trying to sell me an amp.
Marklarsen and Tugen5 please have your class D, rules party.
One thing was fascinating that in the very review we found prasing the amps the reviewer also found a whole bunch of areas where a conventional amplifier was far better sounding that was in terms of bass slam and punch.
Again, unless you need the size and light weight, and low heat generation of these types of amplifiers or great amounts of power per dollar, why wouldn’t you just use the tired and true amplifier design of a conventional class A/B amplifier which to most people still sounds the most musical?
It is not that the Ref 600 are so much less expensive they are still $5k a pair and that puts you close to some of the best sounding conventional Class A/B amplifers out there.
For edification we have tested Auralic Hypex amplifiers, Merrill Veritas, Nad M10, Devialet, Nuforce and Nuprime amplifiers, Mytek and a few others.
The only truly magical sounding Class D was the original Nuforce Ref 9 Se V3, the new Nuprime ST 10 is very nice but still sounds too much like an amplifier, the very inexpensive STA 9 from Nuprime sounds great for a $700 amplifer but we are willing to forgive what that amplifier doesn’t do because we are expecting different things from a $700 amplifier vs a much more expensive one.
We haven’t tested the lastest Nuprime reference amplifier but the word on the stree is that one does sound very good.
Most Class D lacks the magic in the midrange whcih draws you in to the performance, what you get is clean, clear power and generally good bass and dynamics.
The Pascal amp modules do tend to sound warm but still lack the articulation and presense of a good conventional Class A/B amplifier.
Go listen to a Coda, a Krell, a Naim, a Pass, and go see if you are still in the class D camp.
Here is the real question if it wasn’t for the light weight, compact size and low heat, and high power for low cost, would most of the guys who switch to Class D still be using them?
Tgun you are using a tube preamp and a dsd based dac your results are going to be different than others using these amps with different gear also Martin Logans are shelved in the extreme top end.
We are delighed you love your gear many people have different experiences.
From the same review
REF600M did not produce the same amount of dynamic punch or bass slam as my freshly refurbished Pass Labs X150.3.
Gee if the Pass x150 sounds as good in the same areas, but beats the Ref 600 in dynamic punch and slam, and costs nearly the same which is the better choice?
Unless you really dont have the space or need the extra power, what is the appeal again with these Class D amplifiers?
We will put a 250 watt Coda .8 amp vs any Class D amp.
We have tested many Class D amplifiers Hypex, Ncore, Ice, Pascal havent heard one yet that made us want to jump ship. Each one has some flaw.
I will admit that I was angry a few posts back and apologize for that.
Thanks to those who have posted relevant and interesting posts since. I agree that it's unlikely someone here will have the combination - I just gave it a shot. We all know how difficult it is to hear product these days with stores being so far apart (or non-existent).
My disappointment lies in how some here use their agenda to answer posts. The very first response I received was to tell me my amps weren't sonically adequate among other issues. NOT the information I asked for. Then, I have to read sentence upon sentence about the vast knowledge he has. Blah blah blah blah.......
I can guarantee everyone here that the Bel Canto Ref600m is ANYTHING BUT dry and mechanical sounding.
To answer your direct question, yes the REF600 will drive the Magico A3, but I agree with Audio Troy's assessment regarding the dry sounding nature of the REF600 which may become more evident with the hyper detailed Magico.
To answer your question audiotroy, all of them apparently hear better. It is not necessarily hearing, but in your case, bias founded in financial self-interest. For $5K, and I have owned them, the REF600M are terrific, award-winning amps at a great price. So we all disagree with your opinion.
Mark Larsen sorry to disagree but look at a few other reviews on this amp.
Another reviewer prefered an Anthem M1 which is an okay sounding amp at best
Nor did we recommend any amp in our previous posts we did say the Anthem STR was similarily priced and is 400 watts and that amp might sound better.
From the Absolute Sound review
Its mid- and low-bass response was not as vibrant and impactful as several of my reference power amplifiers. While not soft or overly fluffy in a tubey way, the REF600M did not produce the same amount of dynamic punch or bass slam as either the April Music Eximus S1 (used in bridged mode as dual mono amplifiers) or my freshly refurbished Pass Labs X150.3.
Gee a Coda .8 a 250 watt 12 watts Class A a krell 175xd or an Anthem Str 400 watt Class A/B want to see which amplifier would really make those A3 sound great all of these amplifiers are not that much more expensive.
The REF600M was Absolute Sound’s 2017 product of the year. It is NCore based, not ICE based. It has a magical midrange and smooth top end. Did any of the amps audiotroy recommend earn any similar recognition?
tgun5, Wouldn't surprise me if no one has used that combination before.
I recall hearing two pairs of Magico S3s at an audio show in two practically identical hotel rooms a scenario I've experienced a few times before with other highly regarded speakers. What was so incredible about the Magico's opposed to the other speakers in the same scenario, was how different they sound using similar quality electronics. The amplifiers were both double downing high current amplifiers.
Personally, I'd pay for retail just to be able to put the retailer through the hoops of satisfying me. I'm guessing nglazer is on to the general direction.
To also chime in on your original question, I would classify the Magico A3 speakers as a moderately difficult load to drive. The specs on the Ref600M (600W into 4 ohms, 27A peak, 2 ohm minimum) indicate it should be capable of driving the A3 just fine. I have not heard the pair myself though.
We currently have the Magico A3's paired with a Bryston 4B3.
Whoa! Can we return to civility here? Opinions are just that -- opinions -- no need for personal insults. On to the question. I have Magico A3's, which I drive with a Krell FPB 300 cx, a Class A amp. Have not heard the Bel Canto Ref 600's, but years ago had a Bel Canto Class D power amp but did not find the sound natural at all; it was cold and "steely." I cannot comment on current (no pun intended) Class D amps, other than to say I have never heard one that sounded natural or musical. I love the A3's and the Krell works perfectly with them -- more than enough juice and a slight touch of warmth. I suspect similar amps like Pass also would work well. Neal
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