Long ago I once heard some Danish band perform fusion somewhat similar to Mahavishnu, though no violin. The guitar player was very good. Of course, it was no Mahavishnu, but it was quite impressive. My point is that if anyone is trying to continue the tradition of Mahavishnu style fusion, or Miles style, it is likely that you will find them in Europe, especially in Norway and Denmark. Both McLaughlin and fusion era Davis were always more admired in Europe and Japan.
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@ maxnewid: decided to take your advice on The School Of The Arts and have been enjoying the hell out of it the past few days, Thanks! I'm a fusion fan and have always Loved Dixie Dreggs, R2F, Ponty, DiMeola, Corea, et al....but, hey, inna, what can you say...Mahavishnu was always Mahavishnu - nothin' else like 'em!....but then, given all their individual firepower, how could there be, right?? Maybe the band that would best define the 'supergroup of fusion'. |
Correction. " Pasha's Love " composition was written by Trilok Gurtu not by John. This is not the best take, I only have the best take on VHS tape, but still quite good. The bass player is weak. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e5Fu_tCjK8 |
I was also lucky to have been able to catch the Mahavishnu Orchestra in a small club the 1st time I saw them, unbelievable! I saw them again in larger venues (2X) and while they always delivered, it never compared to that 1st nightclub show! When I think back for a minute, the club was My Father's Place in Roslyn, NY. I also caught Return to Forever there as well as Larry Coryell's Eleventh House, not to mention Jaco Pastorious small band! I lived close by so I was fortunate to have caught a lot of great music there (one especially memorable night was when I went to see Paul Winter's Consort and an unknown Bruce Springsteen & the E St. Band were 2nd billing!). When Billy Cobham premiered his Crosswinds band (according to the liner notes in his fantastic compilation; Rudiments), the very 1st gigs they had were at My Father's Place. I went 3 nights in a row!!! Us fanboys would gather around the stage at the end of a set, Billy would toss his used, frayed (from all the rimshots!) wooden drumsticks to us. I managed to get TWO from different nights!;) A book I'd very strongly recommend to anyone interested in Fusion is Power, Passion, & Beauty - The Story of the Legendary Mahavishnu Orchestra (the greatest band that ever was) by Walter Kolosky. Very well researched and written, beyond telling the definitive history of the MO, it also is a narrative about the roots of Fusion Jazz, and paints a general picture of the Jazz world at a pivotal point in its history, it's a great read! "....a most enjoyable read. Walter knows more about the MO than I do and I was the bass player!" - Rick Laird |
I'm going to have to check out "Visions" again--it didn't grab me at the time the way "Inner Mounting Flame" and "Birds of Fire" did. I didn't care much for the live album except for one great track by Jan Hammer: "Sister Andrea." I do like all the live versions of the material from the first two albums that can be found and I wish I had bought the box set that includes the older material from the same performances that gave us "Between Nothingness and Eternity." I doubt Columbia will ever release that material as a single CD even though the box set is out of print. The used price is double what it used to cost new! Anyway, I absolutely loved this band and I'm glad I caught the original group twice. I just don't think there's anything that quite measures up to the excitement and the spooky, almost telepathic, communication they had. |
I only listen to four fusion era albums - Bitches Brew and Pangaea by Miles Davis, and Inner Mounting Flame and Visions Of The Emerald Beyond by Mahavishnu Orchestra. I also listen to some compositions from other albums, not many. I have a Nakamichi 682ZX deck and make compilations. As I mentioned, tunes like Birds of Fire, Sanctuary, Inner Worlds, New York on my Mind, a few others. Life Divine with Santana is excellent too. |
Pryso, you were very lucky to see them live and perform their best. I read a number of interviews with McLaughlin. After a certain point in time the first Mahavishnu toured all over the world too much. They had to play the same tunes sometimes every other day or even more often, were very tired of everything including each other, virtually had no time to rehears, little time for life outside stage and studio. The characters were also not really compatible, Goodman and Hammer had their own ambitions and challenged John all the time. No wonder, the band didn't last. The second Mahavishnu was different, John himself called it true Mahavishnu Orchestra. Perhaps, but still only one great album - the Visions. |
inna, no good ideas regarding your original question. In fact, I now find little to no interest in some of the fusion I enjoyed back in the '70s. Still, MO stands up to the test of time. I just wanted to share that in spite of a few other comments here, seeing MO live was one of the very best concerts I ever attended. It was early in their career (so included Goodman) at a small club in San Diego called Funky Quarters. My date and I had a table (cabaret seating) up front with close views of all the band. It was one of those special moments when everyone was just on. The energy and interplay between each of them was just magical. Lines were traded back and forth and challenged all evening. And Cobham was simply a coiled spring that seemed to drive the intensity of their music more as they worked through their set. I only wish now I had been able to find a recording with that intensity and creativity. For me the closest thing to early MO may be some of the later, instrumental Zappa, but that is not really the same. Anyway, it is fun to see so many who still appreciate McLaughlin and company. |
I think Oz has all the technique he needs to do what he does. McLaughlin has long been my fave electric guy but as far as the last 20 years go I like Oz. I appreciate the musicanship of all those other cats but his music reaches me and theirs does not. Same with George Harrison--hardly virtuosic but IMO he always did the right thing in the allotted space. I realize other people have their favorites and may not care for mine. I've been around the diMeola faction at a concert of "the trio" and I've seen people who thought Eric Johnson put on a clinic jamming with Oz Noy. They could not believe that I or anyone else could have found Oz more musically satisfying than Eric. |
Inna, Oz can kick in the afterburners when needed. Most of the time it's not needed. There are many virtuosic guitar players, some mentioned here, with incredible technical facility but whose music leaves me totally unsatisfied. I've seen Oz about 5 times in a trio setting. I've seen Al D. with Return to Forever and with Paco and John. I was very impressed with Al's handling of the guitar, but I'll take Oz any day. I've never thought it was all about the speed but rather the composition, arranging and where applicable, improvisation. There are no absolutes in these things, it's largely subjective. DIfferent strokes. |
Another great fusion band from the 70*s/80*s nobody has mentioned was Pierre Moerlen*s Gong. Great stinging guitar solos by Allan Holdsworth mixed with jazzy sax and xylophone riffs backed by Moerlens fluid drumming. Best albums: Shamal, Expresso ( aka known as Gazeuse ), Time is the Key and Downwind. Have them all on lp don*t know if cd copy is available. Someone else mentioned Brand X WITH Phil Collins which I also endorse . Sounds similar to Return to Forever with Dimeola. Also recommend the original and later version of Tony Williams Lifetime. The later version featured Allan Holdsworth and Williams powerhouse drumming. |
Give badbadnotgood a listen. Boogie #69 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV8TKHaT7X4 Velvet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx_O1wlhAgk |
So, speaking of talent, and only talent not how it unfolded, in my view the best two men with electric guitar are John McLaughlin and Yngwie Malmsteen. With acoustic guitar - John McLaughlin and Paco de Lucia. Malmsteen could've become much more than he did. So could Shawn Lane whos technique was quite incredible but the rest of him was not. |
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Not exactly McLaughlin but on a totally different level than Zappa. Would someone bring Paganini back, please, I got nothing to listen to ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6R5wb9iY6I |
Enjoying your thread. Not new, more of a root, but a direction to go if not already a fan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CtbhMMTqjc Maybe newer Mike Stern, or Allen Holdsworth, but as has been mentioned, Mahavishnu Orchestra was a very unique band, in a unique time. Try some of the Chad Wackerman recordings. |
Not Mahavishnu but almost an orchestra. Quite good, isn't it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADwfyxpriAM |
This is from his second Shakti group. That mandolin bothers me a little, but John is great. Sound quality is not good. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVdgNXXbm_k |
Coltrane's influence is clear. John himself said that the two biggest influences for him were Miles Davis and John Coltrane, he also liked Charles Mingus. I am familiar with all McLaughlin's official releases of that time and couple of bootlegs. In my perception di Meola has more elegance than fire. McLaughlin has both, Paco de Lucia mostly fire but he was a flamenco guitarist. Some of McLaughlin/de Lucia concerts in the 80s were simply spectacular, di Meola was not needed. I only listen to Inner Mounting Flame and Visions on a regular basis, along with Miles's Bitches Brew where McLaughlin played quite well already. All other Mahavishnu releases are much weaker, though the composition " Sanctuary" from Birds of Fire album is great and "John's Song" from Trident Sessions is pretty good. " Inner Worlds I&II" from Inner Worlds okay, "Birds of Fire" from Birds of Fire okay too. |
Nice post, ethiessen1. I think it should be added that the second group, with Ponty, had none of the original members except John. With mostly different material and sometimes with strings and horns in tow, it was an entirely different animal IMO. Great stuff, but for the most part nothing like the first group. Inna, Mclaughlin's pre-Mahavishnu acoustic release "My Goal's Beyond" is a milestone in realm of modern guitar recordings. It changed the direction of jazz guitar as much as the original Mahavishnu Orch. set the stage for all the fusion bands, good and bad, that followed. |
The extended soloing Cream and Mahavishnu featured that some posters above have decried comes from John Coltrane’s "sheets of sound" style of lengthy soloing that explored the tune being played to the point where you could hardly find any connection to the original melody at all. Yet, many times, the playing did manage to come back to the song itself, but there have been occasions where, particularly under the guise of "free jazz," it sounded like there was more self indulgent noise than actual music being played. Ymmv. Studio recordings of the Mahavishnu Orchestra were obviously structured with shorter pieces and no long solos. The Inner Mounting Flame, Birds Of Fire and Lost Trident Sessions are the 3 played by the original group, with Apocalypse and Visions of the Emerald Beyond by the second one, featuring Jean-Luc Ponty in place of Jerry Goodman. The original ensemble also released a live album, Between Nothingness and Eternity, with a second disc of it being released by Columbia as part of a 2011 Mahavishnu Complete Columbia Albums Collection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavishnu_Orchestra:_The_Complete_Columbia_Albums_Collection If you've not heard all of these, you should, although Apocalypse is by far the weakest of the bunch. Advice for similar sounding music would lead to hearing the post MO recorded output of Messrs Goodman, Cobham and Hammer as well as to The Dregs (once known as the Dixie Dregs), whom Goodman played with as well. There are many musicians out there with the skills the band had back in the day, but few have the emotion and fire-Al Dimeola being a prime example. |
Lots of great recommendations here! While not same-for-same as Mahavishnu but generally jazz-fusion, look into Snarky Puppy! If you are attracted to the musical fusion of different styles and cultures and stellar musicianship, please find them on YouTube and go from there...hold on to your seat! Enjoy! |
I saw Jeff Beck after McLaughlin and the Mahavishnu Orchestra opened the show and I was blown away! I was there to see Jeff Beck and he was great but
John McLaughlin
just stood there in all white and blew everyone away! Blow by Blow was a great album but I was about worn out after the opening of John McLaughlin
and the
Mahavishnu Orchestra fusion! Wow!! Al Di Meola is great and how about Leo Kottke I have never heard anyone play like these guy's? And if you want to listen to some Blues how about Buddy Guy and Luther Allison if you want to hear some great guitar!! All the young players chase the masters and try to improve the sound good luck with that! The 70's still rule when it comes to the super groups of any generation period. |
psag---I feel the same way about Cream live. I saw them twice, and they played the recorded opening version of many of their songs, then went into really extended improvisational take-offs. The problem was that, unlike really good Jazz ensembles, wherein when one player is soloing the rest of the ensemble (particularly the rhythm section) plays in a supportive fashion, with Cream Eric, Jack, and Ginger would often all be "soloing" at the same time, walking all over each other. What a mess! Eric realized the error of his musical direction, he says, when he heard Music From Big Pink by The Band (which contains the finest ensemble playing I have yet to hear, in ANY genre). Eric told Jack and Ginger Cream was over. |
Psag, I will be the first one to agree that many Mahavishnu concerts were very boring. I probably explored the entire youtube looking for those concerts. I'd say, of what I found one in twenty was great, the rest was not worth it. Same with 70s Miles Davis, by the way. Al di Meola is much better on acoustic guitar. His 'Cielo e Terra' mesmerising album is a masterpiece, 'Hearts of the Immigrants' and "Kiss my Axe' are excellent overall. There are exceptions though: Egyptian Danza from 'Casino' and Gods' Dinner Music from 'Splendido Hotel' and a few others are excellent with him playing electric guitar. |
The shorter, tightly composed pieces by the M.O. were often quite good, but the long wailing solos and jams were often boring and indulgent to my ear. I found early Al DiMeola to be more focused and tasteful. It was the age of the rock n roll dinosaurs, and M.O. should take their share of the blame. On the other hand, we can thank fusion and the like for some of the fine musical genres that were born as a reaction to it. |
Try Steven Wilson. His latest album Hand.Cannot.Erase might be something that you'll like. His albums Grace for Drowning and Raven that refused to sing are also superb. Check out the song Drive Home on Raven. Wait for the guitar solo. If your system can produce deep base all of Wilson's albums have it. |
Yeah, McLaughlin has no rivals. Back in the 70s he could have assembled one hundred somewhat different Mahavishnu Orchestras and they all would've been excellent or great. But frankly, to be very impolite, what he has been playing for so many years, with rare exceptions with Shakti, makes no sense and sounds like a screaming of a lonely soul lost in the increasingly incomprehensible wilderness. Even the tone of his supercustom guitars is wrong, I can hear it thru youtube. Not to mention that his bandmates can't play a single note the way it is supposed to be played. Terrible, just terrible. I think, John needs some electroshock therapy. After that either he will start playing what I believe he is still capable of playing or will be gone as a musician altogether. For me either would do but former would definitely be preferred. |
I think The Mahavishnu Orchestra had/has no rivals. The instrumentation alone makes them completely unique. The band had a power, an energy and an impact that can't be duplicated.
However,
there are fusion elements in the band's works that most fusion bands have. If you like the soaring energy and the blazing musical speed you might like some of the later King Crimson music (THRAK, THRaKaTTaK, ProjecKts). |
I love Fusion! Ever since the old days of listening to Hendrix/Cream/Traffic and the like releasing extended instrumental jams, Fusion seemed like the natural next step in electric instrumental music. The thing is, while there are many, many musicians with equal chops and intensity, the Mahavishnu Orchestra was lightning in a bottle, not to be replicated or duplicated, EVER! That said, Fusion has never completely vanished, and while often maligned, there's always lines waiting to get in at shows and thankfully, to this day, there's still great Fusion being created and released. - Simon Phillips (drums) has recorded a number of great solo Fusion records but has recorded 3 with his band Protocol (2 & 3 are favorites!) https://youtu.be/2-MWuqD2_RA - Gary Willis (bass) is a founding member of one of the greatest 'unknown' Fusion bands ever; Tribal Tech! He's released a number of sterling Fusionfests but his latest; Larger Than Life, featuring the white-hot Fusion drummer of the moment; Gergo Borlai, is IMO one of the greatest Fusion recordings of the 21st century! https://youtu.be/e5NyqFiSfrM I could truly go on & on but....Nothing solidifies the ongoing popularity of Fusion more than the fact that Al DiMeola's currently on tour (Electric Tour - Elegant Gypsy meets the Romantic Warrior).As is Chick Corea who's recently reformed his Elektric Band for his 75th birthday(!) and started touring this month. And last but certainly not least is a long rumored supergroup finally performing this month and preparing to tour - Carlos Santana/Wayne Shorter/Herbie Hancock/Marcus Miller/ & Cindy Blackman Santana! Yeah, we're still flying our Fusion freakflag high!;) |