Zen, Thanks for the heads up. I like Javier Bardem as an actor.
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To have no stand on politics is political by its very nature. No one sits idly by and observes. We all participate in one way or another. There is no neutral party or affiliation. There's an old adage that goes something like: The greatest trick the devil ever did was to convince folk that he doesn't exist. Taking it one step further, we've all been admonished that politics should never be discussed. What a coup to those who actively conspire against and rob us! Politics is behind everything. It's at the very heart of our nation. We all either participate or simply give in with our heads in the sand. The Greeks had a word to describe those who refused to participate when their turn came up: IDIOTA. All the best, Nonoise |
Csontos, I don't know what you are questioning but your last post was one of the craziest I've read. If your not willing to start with facts the rest is noise. Zen,okay, but in the meantime, how long are you willing to wait for the facts? History waits for someone to write it but it doesn't know who it is until it happensHistory is the factual recording of past events. |
Mrtennis, Stossel provides a unique perspective that you won't often find in today's media. Being a Liberterian, my views are much aligned with Mr. Stossel although I keep an open mind about every issue and try not to let politics influence the outcomes of my thoughts on those issues. Several stories have been written on comparisons of the US history and that of the Roman Empire. The playing field is too inadequate to make any reasonable comparison. The world is much too different. Things happen much faster. Snowden is not and has never been a spy. He was employed as an intelligence contractor and has become a human rights whistleblower, a concerned citizen. Only when his safety was compromised did he flee. If he didn't leave when he did, we never would have heard the name Snowden, he would have been locked up so deep in Guantanamo you would not have heard from him again. I'll rep at an earlier post, Snowden is a hero. I hope he lives to tell the truth. p.s. his odds for living increased greatly when he flew to Hong Kong. |
i watched a tv show last night hosted by john stossel--a libertarian. he had several guests who provided an argument that the us is heading in the direction of the roman empire. i agree with some of the other comments, that the US should avoid foreign entanglements. i think Jefferson and others warned against such endeavors. as to snowden, informing zus citizens about unconstitutional activities of the govt is a good thing. don't know if he leaked any "secret information". as for spying, the US is not alone in such an activity--other countries spy on us, e.g., China, Russia, etc. . |
Good read on that NYTs article and nice to hear what a former Senator from normal times would say and think. 2/3 of Americans polled fell that Snowden is a whistleblower and only 1/4 feel he's a traitor. The government feels that any potential juror will see him as innocent and that he just did his civic duty. Snowden has already given everything he had when in Hong Kong and it's The Guardian that's releasing the stories. Stories that are vetted with the U.S. government before release. Granted, everything is classified in the "double secret probation" category so the Guardian is carefully screening all releases and so far all that's happened is that there's a lot of shamed and embarrassed people out there. Comey testified for the NSA and perjured himself (a felony) before congress and nothing is going to happen to him. Hmmm. If one looks back through history, since the advent of the phone, the Supreme Court has always sided with the government and allowed wiretapping for whatever reason they could come up with. This is nothing new. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/16/1214827/-Why-the-Fourth-Amendment-Sucks-And-Doesn-t-Prevent-Mass-Electronic-Surveillance-A-Factual-History All the best, Nonoise |
Yes, a great read. Just now, on the news, polls show that 2/3 of Americans see Snowden as a whistleblower and only 1/4 as a traitor. They even spoke of the difficulties the government said it would have with a jury who would see him as innocent and doing his civic duty. When you have NSA head Comey perjure himself (a felony) before congress about the extent of surveillance, that is a bell that cannot be unrung. Nothing will happen to him and the public can see that for what it is. Add to that the fact that Snowden had released everything he had when back in Hong Kong and that it's the Guardian newspaper that is releasing the stories. Snowden has nothing more to add to the mix. Every story the Guardian releases is vetted by the U.S government. Granted, they say all info is of the "double secret probation" variety so the Guardian carefully vets the stories before releasing them. No one has been harmed but there is a lot of shame and embarrassment to go around for everyone. I'd like to believe that we, Americans, are mature enough to be told, informed, and advised of what is going on and can make up our own minds. I can handle it, can you? One more thing as long as I'm here. I did a little research and it turns out that the Supreme Court has never held telephone conversations to the same standard as written correspondence, as written in our constitution. As far back as the early teens of last century, the courts have always held that our phone conversations are up for grabs when it concerns the government. Electronic surveillance has always been given broad latitude and when looked at it with a historical context, they're not living up to the spirit of the law but they are legally skirting the boundaries of it. All the best, Nonoise |
Mail from a former US Senator: "Mr. Snowden, Provided you have not leaked information that would put in harms way any intelligence agent, I believe you have done the right thing in exposing what I regard as massive violation of the United States Constitution. Having served in the United States Senate for twelve years as a member of the Foreign Relations Committee, the Armed Services Committee and the Judiciary Committee, I think I have a good grounding to reach my conclusion. I wish you well in your efforts to secure asylum and encourage you to persevere. Kindly acknowledge this message, so that I will know it reached you. Regards, Gordon J. Humphrey Former United States Senator New Hampshire" |
Nick_sr: All of your comments about Canada's contributions are true. I was mainly speaking of the post cold war world. In the face of the Soviet and German threats, all the players pretty much stayed in line. Canada made great contributions and sacrifices in both world wars. The raid at Dieppe helped ensure the success at Normandy. I did notice that you mentioned the Iraqi war and the WMDs. That's picking and choosing. They didn't KNOW about the WMDs before the war. Cheers |
First let me say, that my disclosure of my citizenship was merely to make it evident that I had much different viewpoint than most of the participants in the discussion, nothing more nothing less. Now @rok2id, what, really? Canadians, and others, like our 'friends in the EU' who live and prosper behind the shield provided by the American taxpayer, thru the might of the US military, should consider this, when commenting on American policy. The Canadians fought alongside the US in Afghanistan as well as many other conflicts. Granted we did not support you in Iraq, but then again you never did find the Saddam's infamous WMDs, so I think it is only fair and just that the US taxpayer pick up the bill for that one. Now I may not have been alive during WWii but I have enough of a history education to know that the war was one in no small part thanks to the brave and valiant efforts of the Canadian army. Please remember Canada is 1/10 the size of the US in terms of population, I think we have contributed our fair share for preserving and maintaining our Mutual freedom. We continue to contribute more than our share not only militarily but also in musicians, actors, producers and great audio companies, not to mention Tim Horton's coffee (which IMO really stinks) and last but not least Hockey players. |
I have mixed feelings about a political thread like this being on Audiogon, but I have to admit I’ve enjoyed reading every one of the comments posted here. I also enjoyed reading the NY Times editorial that was published soon after the Snowden story broke: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/opinion/surveillance-a-threat-to-democracy.html?ref=opinion |
Zenblaster, Yes, absolutely. I just feel it shouldn't be any kind of a barrier when it comes to expressing oneself. The last time I looked this is a free country. Our beliefs extend to everyone on this planet, otherwise, we're just become the biggest gang around with a xenophobic chip on our shoulder. As for Obama's fortune resting on deregulation, I see it as a parallel to what's going on and not a contributing factor. All the best, Nonoise |
****you never have to qualify your thoughts with a preface on your citizenry. Canada, America, whatever, we're all people and we're entitled to our beliefs. :-)******* Canadians, and others, like our 'friends in the EU' who live and prosper behind the shield provided by the American taxpayer, thru the might of the US military, should consider this, when commenting on American policy. I respect him for stating his Nationality. It was the proper thing to do. Cheers |
Nick_sr, Great post and if I may say, you never have to qualify your thoughts with a preface on your citizenry. Canada, America, whatever, we're all people and we're entitled to our beliefs. :-) What you touched on, with the tragedy of the train laden with 50,000 gallons of oil, parallels what I mentioned earlier, namely the result of privatization. Since Reagan and Thatcher, we've been told to hate ourselves through our governments and that the private sector is the solution. Deregulation has led to banking crisis, industrial disasters (remember Texas?), food poisoning, increases in blue collar worker deaths (when they can find a job), outsourcing of jobs, mercenary armies, and intelligence gathering, and look how well it's all turned out. How far do we have to lower the bar before we realize we've been hoodwinked? We have to opt out of the sharing of personal information but back in the '70s it was illegal to even consider it. A piece of paper denoting a company has more rights than the average citizen and none of the criminal liability. When was the last time you heard of a company getting the death sentence, do time in prison, or get a pap smear or colonoscopy? That train company will just get a fine and keep on keeping on. The lions share of intelligence gathering that the CIA and NSA conduct is of the commercial variety, not the citizen variety. Yes, they can and do prevent terrorism and keep the bad guys in check, but they also share our personal info for commercial and marketing purposes and to interfere with our rights. The people who work for the privateers who now do the watching are former NSA and CIA spooks who still have connections. Recently, Coca Cola was at odds with PETA and a former spook offered to go get the government folder on PETA for Coke to use. Great system, huh? All the best, Nonoise |
Dear Nick_sr, Thanks for a well thought out post. I know our EU friends were none to happy with being the target of US espionage. Politicians have been beating the terrorism drum for money and votes back to Bush Sr. Both parties are guilty. The marathon bombing kids are a prime example, to shut down a entire metropolitan area and turn it into a police state for what? More people are killed and injured on the Boston highways every weekend. That was a mob mentality response that pandered to the police state crowd. |
Let me bring a different perspective to this discussion. First off, I am Canadian and thus may see things differently Hey! I was not alive during WWii and my parents were only young children living in separate areas of the world. I have no idea who Anthony Cordesman is as an audio reviewer or political commentator. As for Edward Snowden, who cares its too late the damage, if any, is done. If the secrets he revealed were so important, then the people who should be shot or punished are those that failed to provide the safeguards to prevent a single person from accessing, downloading and leaking the information. What I don't get is all the outrage and surprise about what Snowden leaked. The fact the NSA was spying on people's email and phone calls was public knowledge, there was a report by Frontline in May 2007 "Spying on the home front" exposing this whole operation. Was it the extent of it, the implication of Google, Microsoft or others, maybe. What really get's me is that the Boston bombers were previously flagged by the NSA, the Russians even warned the US about the danger but still they were able to carry out the horrific acts. Billions of you tax dollars are being spent each year, and the rights of US citizens and others are being compromised and in the end you still don't prevent the terror. Now my outrage, a little over a week ago here in a small town in Quebec, a train carrying over fifty tanker of crude oil was left unattended during the night and rolled back 12 km/ 8 miles down a hill into a curve and exploded levelling the town of Lac Megantic, the accident killed 50 people. Nearly everyone in the town lost someone in their family. The exact cause of the event has not yet been determined but it was not terrorism. Similar accidents have occurred and will likely continue to occur throughout out the US, Canada and the world. BP comes to mind as a prime example, with the Deepwater Horizon disaster they killed 11 people and leaked millions of gallons of crude into the Gulf. That was preceded, 5 years earlier, by the Texas City Refinery explosion that killed 15 and injuring 170 people. My point is that on a daily and continuous basis various industries are undertaking high risk operations that put the lives of hundreds or thousands of people at risk. Far less government money and resources are spent minimizing or eliminating these risks. Risks which when compared to the risk of terrorism are far greater. Fighting terror touches an emotional string with voters whereas regulating industry slows the flow of campaign funding. Not to mention that most people can't understand or tangibly assess these risks. That is why after 9/11 it is reported that in the US air travel decreased in favour of automobiles despite that the fact the odds of dying in a car reck are 1:98 vs a plane crash 1:7178 (source USA Today). Let me end with a Popper quote "We are democrats, not because the majority is always right, but because the democratic traditions are the least evil ones of which we know..." |
Today are reasonable expectations of privacy are reduced from the days when our Justices first enunciated the doctrine in the context of Fourth Amendment jurisprudence in 1967--- sad to say. Companies use our cookies to see our purchasing (and who knows what else) preferences, our cellphones are utilizes quite freely by the courts to determine not only the fact of a call but one's location when it was made. This info is of course available to our telephone companies and indeed stored by them for a period of time in the regular course. We hope and trust that they do not abuse it. We go through EZpass, but do not want it utilized for the ulterior purpose of issuing speeding tickets--, your cable company has your viewing preferences down. Your credit card co knows how where and when you purchase things and what your purchasing preferences are. Many businesses have hidden cameras that monitor their streets and parking lots. They are recording our movements. In this context, the disclosure that the US is able to and does collect metadata (and not the content) of many millions of calls made me feel safer than before. The stated purpose for this program was to preserve our ability to retroactively, under the appropriate circumstances, connect the dots on those who are in constant communication with terrorists or terrorist cells and perhaps obtain subpoenas to monitor the calls in the future. This previously undisclosed ability, now compromised, has resulted in a loss of a critical tool in our national defense. We can applaud a number of instances where an unauthorized release of classified information led us to be a freer country with better restraints against bad governmental conduct, e.g--the Pentagon Papers, Watergate. I am not one who believes that whatever the government classifies should remain so just because our government says so. Indeed, I believe there is far too much classified information and much less transparency in government than there should be. Nevertheless, I cannot for the life of me see how, in the context of what we know is known about us by any number of actors today, we can applaud Snowden for undermining a key tool for our national defense under the guise of being a champion of our privacy. He simply had no legal right and, more importantly, no moral right to make these disclosures. |
Anthony Cordesman lived near a business that my best friend from high school owned. He would occasionally drop in the store to shop, talk a little about stereo, and leave some cables that he had finished auditioning or reviewing. I ended up with some really nice inter connects and speaker cables for free! Thank you Tony. As a reviewer, I consider him one of the best! Oh, and my friend is not longer with us, I am sad to say. |
Zenblaster: ******I don't see how you can award the moral high ground to Hirohito, Mussolini and Hitler who were hell bent on world domination through any means necessary.******* Was not speaking of 'moral highground', I was addressing American INTERVENTION and the world's reaction to it. *****We formally declared war on Japan Dec. 8, 1941, the day after they bombed Pearl Harbor. Within days Germany and Italy declared war on the United States as signatories to the Axis Tripartite Pact.******* I guess you forgot about American spport with war materiel for Great Britain and France. Both at war with Germany. I guess you didn't hear of the American Navy's attacks on German Submarines in the North Atlantic. Or the Navy escorting convoys heading for England. Or the American Volunteer Group(flying Tigers) fighting the Japanese in China. Ever hear of the American embargo against Japan concerning oil and scrap metal. ALL of this, and more, happened long before Pearl Harbor. Giving the UK, old US Navy ships etc.... ****I'm assuming that you were alive during ww2 by your last statement so take this with all due respect.****** Actually I was, for some of it. Was not old enough to read. But if you read carefully, you will see that I said, I don't recall READING (now) about protests that would have happened during that time(WWll) Of course, with all respect due you. Cheers . |
07-05-13: Rok2idI'm assuming that you were alive during ww2 by your last statement so take this with all due respect. We formally declared war on Japan Dec. 8, 1941, the day after they bombed Pearl Harbor. Within days Germany and Italy declared war on the United States as signatories to the Axis Tripartite Pact. I don't see how you can award the moral high ground to Hirohito, Mussolini and Hitler who were hell bent on world domination through any means necessary. |
The fact is we all do know the truth and you've been careful enough in your analysis to ward off a heretic's or fanatic's badge. Do some research into the true character and positions of authority of your founding fathers and things will fall into perspective. "Great democratic experiment"? I don't think so. Maybe a few little ones along the way. Interesting read in the paper today by Daniel Ellsberg titled 'Snowden made right call to flee U.S.' |
Someday it will become apparent that all politics are a sideshow and that oligarchs rule. Go back as far as you want and you have oligarchs at the uppermost level calling the shots with politics used as a veneer, replete with flags and bunting. Our great democratic experiment is barely surviving thanks to oligarchy. What our founding fathers started was the greatest attempt at a functioning democracy and for awhile, oligarchs were not really present. It didn't take them long to coalesce and solidify their hold (about a 100 years into this experiment). Their reach is getting worse (stronger). One only has to look at the Tea Party anarchists and the extreme right wing religious anarchists to see just how efficient they are at disabling American democracy dead in its tracks. Germany, Spain, Italy, et al have all gone through this before and we are next on the chopping block. Balkanization has already taken hold and we are adrift in this sea of indecision. It's no wonder the "government" is looking out for itself as it's become a player unto itself, for most part and privatization is a natural outcome as it's just a means to grift off the last and most lucrative entity extant in our democracy. If you take a step back and look at what's going on, we're kind of modeling this after the Soviet example: one big fire sale of what should remain in the commons. That's my take on it and I only mention it after what's been penned prior. I'm not looking for an argument. It's only meant to be another way at looking at it. I still have hopes for turning this all around and the pendulum seems to be finally swinging back the way of a democracy or sorts since for all the time it's been on the right, things have really gone to pot. Academics have theorized that it's a generational phenomena of sorts with offspring of conservatives tending towards liberalism and then back again. Who knows? All the best, Nonoise |
The two greatest examples of sticking our nose where it does not belong, are both World Wars. First we provoke both Japan and Germany, then we help destroy both countries. Killing hundreds of thousands in the process. Mostly civilians!! Neither country ever did anything to 'US', to deserve our agression. Interestingly, I don't recall reading about any European protest at the time. And the Middle East in the worst example of all. We now have have an entire religion hating us. Was not always that way. Why is it that way now? So I agree we should mind our own business, I just have a problem with this picking and choosing. I think Washington told us to stay out of those entanglements. Cheers The world just feels that it has veto power over the use of American power. When we are saving their asses, our intervention is great. Otherwise, yankee go home, until we need you to sacrifice your young and treasure again. We'll call you. |
Check mark Macrojack. 99% of the people on this planet that want us and our next 10 generations to die a long and painful death would not even know we exist if it wasn't for our expansionist, meddling foreign policies. Because we opened our shore to all oppressed people of the world which IS the greatest humanitarian effort in history, that doesn't give us the right to rape, rob, pillage and then set up a straw government (for future r, r, & p) anywhere we please. The politicians might tolerate you, the masses will .., well it's pretty obvious how the People will view us. I apologize for bringing my observations that have nothing to do with the advancement of our hobby to this site. I will try not to let it happen again. |
Zenblaster - It is common knowledge that everyone else hates us because they hate our freedom. Or that's the meme conveyed by the corporate press. I'm more inclined to agree with you in your assertion that they hate us for meddling in their politics and stealing their natural resources. Edward Snowden looks to me like a man of conscience and conviction who risked his life to alert us all of what was coming ---- sort of like Paul Revere. Now the corporate press is focusing on him and glossing over the crimes he revealed..... talk about shooting the messenger. Mr. Cordesman is a diplomat to his core. Even his audio reviews were remarkably diplomatic. Unlike me, he has gone very far in life knowing what not to say. To much of the world, the U.S. is the schoolyard bully who steals their lunch money and makes them live in fear. So I'm not condemning my country but just expressing disappointment about learning that we aren't what schoolroom lessons told us we are. |
Our envious foreign policy has led us to most hated nation on the planet status. The only countries that tolerate the U.S. are on the payroll. It's like the Yankees finishing last every year. Do you think it might be time for a change in direction? 100 years of exploiting the planet through sheer tyranny. The billions of dollars we send in aid gets stuffed in some Saudi kings vault or a straw presidents pocket. Very little gets to the streets. Make no mistake people around the world hate us. Just look at Egypt, we have never been more reviled there. |