I went to Best Buy to purchase some SACDs and after searching for the special section containing sacds and xrcds without success, I asked the salesman where they were. He informed me that they were all removed since dual disc is now the rage. WOW!
For over five years I have listened to claims of the death of SACD. During this same time I have continued to build my SACD library and modify my Sony SCD-1.
The impending death looks further away today than any time in the past five years. For those who continue to predict it's failure, most who have not even heard SACD's I am sorry. You have missed five wonderful years of music!
I personally do not care, as I've modified my SACD player, I continue to receive better performance from both SACD and redbook playback. So I can not see how I've done anything but gained in my system enjoyment.
Others can continue writing obituaries about various formats, I'm too busy listening to my system.
ok....jazz and classical releases(with sacd) are less than 10% 0f all music sales. the quarterly release schedule for sacd is around 250(the lion's share from sony. cd and dvd is around 8000 titles per quarter. the playstation 3's compatibility will extend not only to sacd but hddvd as well. of the nearly 3500 sacd releases, nearly 1/3 are or will be slated for extinction. one more thing....releases dont equate to sales. if you talking sales increases over last year, vinyl is the fastest growing material format(the numbers are microscopic). sales in the industry overall are still down, a trend that hasn't stopped. remember, sony just sold their music company to bmg(a company that loves to work assetts without overspending. buy music 'regardless of the format', or soon there will be only one major label. the more formats, the better, but the internet is where the easy money comes from. and big companies love easy money.
I love this thread - it's title is about SACD being dead, but reading the posts on this thread is very encouraging. Jaybo provides some entertainment with his numbers that he won't back up with any source (sorry jaybo but if I don't have evidence, I don't blindly trust the numbers given - not saying you are dishonest but still will need some proof). And everyone else is giving good examples how SACD is more alive than I realized.
dig into NARM for numbers. national association of recording merchandisers......membership has its rewards...not really.....but it does give me a bird's eye view (of the reality) of the music business for over 25 years
JAYBO.....do yourself a favor and listen to SACD thru the cary 306 sacd player.I understand what you're saying ...but if you heard how good sacd can be.You would understand why we support this format so strongly.
I find it ironic that I discovered this thread as the new 2006 catalogs from "Acoustic Sound" and "Music Direct" both have arrived in the past two weeks. Wonderful to see how much is direct DSD recorded by so many labels.
Yes the Vinyl selection looks strong too, but I am so excited putting my Christmas list together. Over the past five years I have patiently waited for SACD to grow, and ever so slowly it has.
SACD will never be "the" new format, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs have their eyes on that. These two are going to take the sonic quality of music down another notch or two, which makes the small quantity high quality disks even that much more in demand by the Audiophiles. We are willing to pay $35 for a 180 gram vinyl pressing or $25 for boutique labels and SACD.
My guess is redbook cd will die before SACD and DVD-A. Once Apple and Microsoft finish there new ventures there will be no need for music from the store. It will all be internet downloads, except for us, the Audiophile market. This is where the labels who care about quality recording and production will stay and SACD will be one of their preferred formats. It does sound better, and it's a step forward, be it a smaller step than I was hoping for.
If vinyl, SACD, DVD-A die, we audiophiles will die too. Given the fact that any 24 hour period here at Audiogon has over 500 new listings, I don't see that happening. So if you do care about quality recordings, you best support the efforts "our" labels are making to get recorded music better.
If you don't care about sonic quality, then why not leave this site and go to the Microsoft chat rooms...
Jadem6, your post appears to be based upon what you own rather than facts. That's OK, as long as you recognize it.
"If vinyl, SACD, DVD-A die, we audiophiles will die too."
Says whom? Formats come and go. Minidisc and Elcaset are two. The death of vinyl has been greatly exaggerated (apologies to Mark Twain), but SACD and DVD-A are less certain. Redbook is here to stay even though sales have slowed a bit.
Acoustic Sounds, Music Direct and others offer most SACDs available, but you don't read about what they can't get. Did you know Sony cancelled their music SACDs several months ago?
I am strongly committed to sound quality and long term music satisfaction. It's not cut and dried the way one might think as far as formats are concerned, and if you think it is, you are missing out.
If vinyl, SACD, DVD-A die, we audiophiles will die too. (...) So if you do care about quality recordings, you best support the efforts "our" labels are making to get recorded music better
Well put, JD, in a very direct and down to earth way, too. It's actually a very serious possibility that I for one had comfortably paid only lip service to. I believe we should give serious consideration to supporting ASAP these labels.
I agree with the point you are making. We audiophiles all have different priorities but have one common thread - we build our systems around the best playback format(s) available. I doubt anyone on this forum has built their system around 8-track, cassette, MP3, etc. We have chosen formats that have, theoretically at least, the BEST performance available. Unfortunately, recordings are of various quality no matter the medium. On question though, you state "Sony cancelled their SACDs several months ago". Where did you get this information?
I just read this today:
"Sony Music Sets 5 Titles for 5.1 Surround Sound Super Audio CD Release Sony Music has set release dates for five of their albums on Hybrid Multichannel Super Audio CD. The upcoming 5.1 Surround Sound SACDs include titles by artists including Duran Duran, John Legend, Yo-Yo Ma and the move soundtrack albums from The Legend of Zorro and The Phantom of the Opera. There are also rumors that two additional albums featuring Switchfoot and John Mayer may also be destined for the 5.1 Surround Sound SACD treatment as well.
Mining The 5.1 Dual Disc Catalog One of the interesting things about the Sony Music announcement is that the upcoming Surround Sound Super Audio CDs is that they are in large part drawn from the company's Dual Disc catalog. High Fidelity Review readers probably recall that the first set of Sony Music Dual Discs with 5.1 Dolby Digital tracks came from albums that had mixes originally done for 5.1 Surround Sound SACD release.
Now the tables appear to be turned as this group of 5.1 Surround Sound releases had their start on Dual Disc in 5.1 Dolby Digital format. With their appearance on Hybrid Multichannel Suepr Audio CD, the albums will now be available in high resolution auduo as well.
December SACD Titles from Sony Music Starting off the releases will be Duran Duran's recent album Astronaut and R&B singer John Legend's album entitled Get Lifted. This marks the Super Audio CD debut of both artists.
As noted above, both albums were originally issued as Dual Discs as well as on Stereo CD. They are due out as Hybrid Multichannel Super Audio CDs on December 20th.
Duran Duran - Astronaut (Epic EH 76175)
John Legend - Get Lifted (Columbia CH 76181)
January Brings 3 Sony Classical SACDs On January 3rd, Sony Classical will add three more Hybrid Multichannel Super Audio CDs to the mix. They will include Yo-Yo Ma Plays The Music of Ennio Morricone and the movie soundtracks to The Legend of Zorro and The Phantom of the Opera.
Yo-Yo Ma has been featured on several Super AUdio CDs from Sony Classical in the past including the albums Solo and Silk Road Journeys - both of which were recorded in the Direct Stream Digital (DSD) format. Morricone's music has also appeared earlier on two Super Audio CDs issued in Europe - his movie soundtrack to the movie The Mission (Virgin Records SACDV-2402) and Focus, an album of Morricone's music featuring Morricone and Portugese singer Dulce Pontes (Universal/Focus 980829-3). Focus was recorded in DSD and has been given high marks by many audiophiles in Europe.
Yo-Yo Ma plays Ennio Morricone - Yo-Yo Ma (Sony Classical SH 76225)
The Legend of Zorro Soundtrack - James Horner (Sony Classical SH 76226)
The Phantom of the Opera - Original Movie Soundtrack (Sony Classical SH 76662)
Two More SACDs Planned? In addition to these 5 Hybrid Multichannel SACD titles, rumors on the Internet suggest that more may be on the way. The MusicTap.Net web site says that 5.1 Surround Sound SACDs of John Mayer's Room for Squares and Switchfoot's The Beautiful Letdown are also coming. There's no confirmation of these two titles from Sony Music to date. But we'll keep an eye out for more news in that regard.
Now Available for Pre-Order All 5 of these Sony Music Hybrid Multichannel SACDs are now available for pre-order on the Sony Music Store web site. The Duran Duran 5.1 Surround Sound SACD is also available for pre-order on the Amazon.Com and CD Universe web sites. As the release date draws closer, I suspect we will see them featured by other web sites that carry Super Audio CDs as well."
I was simply ignoring Essentialaudio because his comments made no sense to me. I assume he thinks I'm listening to music, so ????????????? Yes I did comment on SACD, that is the reason for this thread, all the other he comments on?????????
If he means I'm not listening to MP3, cassettes, real to real, 8 track... then he is right.
No matter, his comments were so far off topic, they meant nothing to me. Maybe he's upset because I haven't bought a cassette deck from his "audio" store.
The 2 unconfirmed Sony SACD titles carry catalog numbers that indicates SACD, however they're listed as CD at Sony's webstore.
Currently, as of 12/01/2005, sa-cd.net lists 3,414 SACD titles released worldwide. Looks like the number of titles released will cross over the 3,500 mark by year's end. A number of months ago, sa-cd.net stopped listing new titles from the Hong Kong/China/Taiwan region, but this is one of the most active regions in terms of SACD releases. These releases are now listed on Sony's European superaudio-cd.com website. We are actually now very close to 3,450 titles.
IMHO, it's always been about the software available. They just never stepped up to the plate to support the format in terms of releasing titles that most people can relate to. I have stayed on the sidelines for awhile now because there's just so few titles I would be interested in owning. I've been an audiophile for alot of years (I'm 47) and over those years, I haven't meet alot of people who are into high-end audio equipment. Of the ones I have met and know, none of us would be interested in Duran Duran, Yo-Yo Ma plays Ennio Morricone, The Legend of Zorro soundtrack or The Phantom of the Opera soundtrack. I wouldn't buy one release Treyhoss mentions. For goodness sake who are they marketing to? There is a very limited audience to start with and then they release titles that only an ever smaller audience would like, it's no wonder it's not going anywhere. The price of equipment has come down in an effort to appeal to a broader audience, but really, I don't know any 20-30 year olds who would run out and buy Yo-Yo Ma plays Ennio Morricone, The Legend of Zorro soundtrack or The Phantom of the Opera soundtrack. Just my two cents.
I don't know ifit's dying or not....titles in play aren't generally my cup of tea...haven't ever had a dealer demo that made me think this was a better format than regular cd. Sony is the General Motors of audio.
speaking strictly for myself, I have not lost my enthusiasm for the format, or the past two years increases in released titles. I did however grow very tired of trying to share my enthusiasm. There are some people who tried it and heard nothing, for those I question the resolving abilities of the system they heard it on. There are many who have never tried it and yet share their negative opinions. There are yet others who have found the format betters the redbook by a marked degree, not to mention the fact that we also can play redbook on our machines. Those without the ability to play SACD are missing the format, those of us who are enjoying SACD also enjoy redbook. So please explain what I'm missing...
IMO you are not missing anything I agree with you and share your enthusiasm for SACD. What amazes me is these same people who are negative about SACD will promote tweak after tweak trying to get the absolute most out of their systems. When they have something that can improve their listening pleasure such as SACD they denounce it. I suspect that some or most of these people probably hate SACD because they hate SONY and will not promote anything that SONY does.
a format's superiority is no assurance of success. the sound of sacd is great, its just that bmg has bought sony music, and there is no way they are going to invest in sacd. they could care less about the fidelity difference. if you check the new avails you will see things are drying up already.
Sony and GM are the giants in their markets and continually try to dictate to the market rather than catering to the market...GM=gas hog SUV's,Sony=BetaMax, SACD,Encrypted CD's etc...Only their size seems to keep them going.
Mike, I am forced to agree with you. My SACD list is mostly comprised of the genre that includes Pink Floyd, Elton John, Sheryl Crow, Allman Brothers, The Who, etc. I am eargerly awaiting to hear RUSH on SACD and - hopefully - the long rumored Moody Blues "classic 7" releases!! For every one SACD released in the genre I listed above, there are 50 (it seems) SACD releases of Classical and Jazz - Not that I have a problem with that but it's not the type music I listen to regularly. I too wish that more Rock/Pop music would be released in a high-rez format and in that respect both SACD and DVDA has done a lousy job! In the greater context of this thread however, I place my chips on SACD. I view the coming high-def video format war between DVD-HD and Blu-Ray as a repeat of the DVDA vs. SACD format war. From what I have read, Blu-Ray has the edge coming out of the chute. I can't believe that Sony won't try and incoporate SACD and/or DSD in this next generation of High-def DVD players. If that happens I expect to see SACD around for many more years than DVD-A. Ironically, it will be some sort of ultra-high capacity storage device (think a high-rez iPod) that will kill off both formats in the end. Just think the computer companies wii come up with a better audio record/playback system than the audio companies!!! - Tony
Sorry...you are right .There is no SACD available via broadband or satellite....however the music that is available VIA broadband,cablebox,mpeg3 and computer can be run thru the DAC on the CARY.The abiltiy to source it with sacd,hdcd,cd and non software sources makes it a good choice for managing all the various digital sources available today....add a decent analog frontend and you have all the formats covered.
Jaybo, your point was made and understood three posts ago. What I see being discussed is where the audio industry is going, not what one label is releasing. I doubt anyone would disagree with your view of what is being released, and we all stand perplexed by the decision making.
One point I would make regarding the jazz and classical releases ahead of rock/pop is the quality of recordings. Most of the back library of classical and jazz is recorded direct to tape without over dubbing. The rock era of the 70's was the turning point for the recording industry and for the most part the quality of recording has fallen from there. The multi track recordings I have heard on SACD are worse than in redbook. This is because the SACD format is allowing me to hear more, in this case hear the overdubs and splices.
Most of the new "mass market" music of today is so poorly recorded that I can hardly listen to it on my system. Releasing bad recordings on a hi-rez format would only make the experience worse.
As I see it, the music industry has quit recording for "us" thirty years ago, and as said in discussed above, if the delivery is through computer or satellite in the future the mass market music will be even worse.
It requires labels like Mapleshade, Chesky, Reference Recording, Lost Highway and the like to receive our continued support if we want high quality recordings in the future. If there was enough people demanding quality perhaps some of the better artists would write there next contract with a quality first label. Otherwise, we audiophile types are stuck in the '50's and 60's when the industry cared. Sadly that means jazz and classical or garage rock.
I agree with TVAD - bad rock, etc. recordings are problems in redbook and vinyl too. Before SACD was a thought, I had a hard time finding recording of rock that were well done. There's lots of it out there, but the percentage of quality recordings compared to classical and jazz are minute.
Tvad...Good idea, but why not cut out the middle man, and have orchestras or individuals put up their own stuff, as is happening in the pop music field. For example: the Boston Symphony Orchestra could offer downloads of its live performances for those unable to attend in person.
I bet the fly in the ointment would be the musicians union.
Since orchestras like the SFSO, RCO and LSO issue and own their recordings, there's no reason they cannot offer downloads as the opportunity become financially attractive. In fact, I expect that is inevitable.
First off I must commend everyone on this thread for making an often very controversial topic enjoyable and useful.
Tvad, somehow I do think you and I are not communicating. It appears to be partly on each of our interpretations of what we are reading. This is always the danger of these threads; its easy to misunderstand and therefore not communicate.
On my side, I here you questioning the logic of the SACD releases to date. I agree, I do not understand it either (but I will add a thought on that later). Then I challenged you that they are releasing recordings based on quality of the recording, and you disagreed. You later discussed the marketing is not for the 35+ year old market. Now Im confused. In my mind the SACD marketing is to those people who are looking for the best digital sound available. This most likely would be people who could afford high end audio equipment, thus the 35+ year old market. This might also be a market that is more likely to enjoy the well recorded classical and jazz of the 50s and 60s. So in my mind this is an explanation for the choices they make.
Again Im going to make the point that using SACD to release the poorly recorded mass market music of the 70-present would be illogical in that this playback method would only highlight the flaws of the original recording (master tapes) The only way to improve these recordings is to filter and roll off the problem areas. This would be unacceptable to those looking for the best digital playback possible. So I am confused by your responses.
I then hear you discussing downloading via broad band satellite being some sort of answer. To who???
I made the point that the mass market, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are going to destroy the music industry. I should have been clearer with my thought. This will destroy the high quality, hi-rez audio market. Heres my logic. The original DAC tapes made from either analog source or DSD digital format is the best digital copy available. (First generation) Every time this signal is sent through something, the chance of lessening the quality exists. How good is the clocking in the manufacturing? How is the signal sent to a satellite or uploaded to the internet. What clocking is used? Every generation of digital reproduction will alter the original. It will always be something less, in that it is not logical that we could add to this digital source. We can only degrade this, not improve it.
The mass market and I believe your idea of satellite will only degrade the original recording. If you are using todays technology to play back this degraded signal you are using equipment developed for computers and now home video. I am not aware of a digital source that would match the quality of our high end audio gear. If its on the internet, its run through Billys or Steveys software. I do not believe this is a good thing. If youre using satellite transponders, and expecting the receiver to match the equipment the high end audio user has, I do not believe it.
What you are discussing is the very downside I am discussing. I do not believe this method of music transfer is anything but a step backward, and inherently flawed. If filtering the jitter created by lesser clocking equipment is a solution acceptable to you, then fine. I would guess those who strive for the best possible stereo playback would not find this an acceptable solution. So here we are, I believe SACD is a better format to reproduce the audio signal for my stereo. You believe the mass market uploading to the internet or satellite is better. We are talking about apples and oranges and my expectation for audio reproduction must be quite different than yours.
Now I completely agree the internet and satellite is the method of the future. I see that as a negative, and you seem to see it as a positive. If that is true, I respectfully disagree, and fully support your ambition to find high quality mass market software. I hope your right, but today I do not believe you are. Instead, I am discussing a completely different animal. I am looking to support the non-mass market labels that believe in quality of recording first and quality of delivery first. These labels have endorsed SACD and I applaud them. These may also be the labels that keep the high end audio business alive, and I support them. Today they are releasing some of the best of a massive library of well recorded music. It is clearly marketed to the older, well healed audiophiles. Makes sense, that was the purpose of a new format, at least for the smaller quality labels.
Sonys motivation was something completely different. They hoped to keep there monopoly on royalties they had enjoyed for 25 years with CDs. SACD was there attempt, and I agree they failed big time. It does not however mean the formats future is dead, quite the contrary. From SACD came DSD recording techniques. This format is becoming the recording and storage of original materiel standard. The step from DSD to SACD disks is nothing. The technology is in DSD and I think that is here to stay. In fact this is one possible logic behind the releases to date. There is a large attempt by the audio industry to preserve the original master tapes on file. Many of the oldest ones are deteriorating as are old film (video). In the audio world DSD is the process being used to re-master the original master tapes. So the stuff being re-mastered today is much of the great performances stored in the vault and re-mastered before they are lost forever. SACD is a bi-product of that. Same can be said for film/video. DVD-V is the bi-product. In the video industry they are digitally reworking (adding pixels) to make a brighter more vivid presentation. This is a very dangerous practice, and for our cherished audio, I would like this practice to remain in video only. I want what was recorded, not what some computer geek believes it should have sounded like.
At any rate, the music industry will take mass market to the computer and satellite industry. We will learn to accept rolled off, heavily filtered and compressed audio for our ipods and mp3 players. Out audio will come from space, collected my our dishes and decoded by less than perfect equipment. This is the mass market, and why I claimed that CD will die. There will be no need, and because of this prediction I agree with your comments. Its the high-end/ Audiophile market I was addressing, and for them, those who believe in the best, SACD remains a format beyond CD.
Tvad, good points all. I have nothing left to discuss other than the topic of this thread. The only dispute I have is a clone is not a clone. Digital reproduction is completely reliant on clocking, and the fact that clocking is not a perfect science, every copy be nature is altered.
The very fact that vinyl is available to a fraction of the audiophile community, which is in turn a fraction of the music industry, tells me there will be a digital equivalent to vinyl. I propose this will be SACD, due in part to the fact that much of the master tape library is being re-mastered into the DSD format. It seems logical that the audiophiles will want that information made available as purely as possible, thus SACD.
I just have a hard time seeing Chesky, Mapleshade and the like settling for degradation of the original.
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