On using a SUT with an MM or MI cartridge, generally the answer is no. The one exception is for a low output MI that also has a low internal impedance, which I think describes the Sussuro.
Another “How to choose an arm” question
I currently have a Sota Saphire running an SAEC We317 arm (221mm spindle to pivot and 12 mm overhang).
That is running a Garrott Bros p77i, but I have been looking at some LOMC cartridges, as well as SoundSmith LO-MI, AT ART, etc.
How is one supposed to determine their current arm is good or not?
It sounds fine and I would think that the knife edge design is not prone to a lot of wear.
However it was recommend that I upgrade the arm… But how would I know “to what”, and how would I know if the upgrade is worthwhile?
I was looking at some DD tables to have a more expanded choice of arms that can be mounted, as the Sota is a bit restrictive in that regard. That is still on the cards as a possibility… however assuming that the Sota is a keeper, then how do I determine the arm’s adequacy, being “fit for purpose”?
67 responses Add your response
I have 49 dB of gain available, and the SS sheet on that cart says recommended gain=58-64 dB. There is also a SUT with 11 dB of gain which would bump me to 60dB…
Good info on awaiting the ECLIPSE... and more waiting is OK.
The Sussurro was apparently Schroder inspired. |
@holmz , I have a brand new Cosmos. I would wait on the Eclipse upgrade. When they unified the two components onto one chassis they chose a complicated switching algorithm that is not working well. The turntable runs fine but when you turn it on it has a tendency to switch speeds so you have to tap the button again to get back to 33. I am on my second unit now and it is better but nowhere near perfect. Personally I think they need to change the design and add a forth switch separating the on/off function from the speed change function. They'll get it figured out eventually. As you suggest it would be much more efficient to just get a new cartridge. A low compliance Soundsmith would work great. The Sussurro mkII is the sweet spot in that part of the line. This is a much superior cartridge to any of the Hanas. It is very neutral and tracks great. The Reeds will require modifying the plinth. It also might be too heavy but I am not sure. This also goes for the Tri Planar. If you like the Tri Planar you really should have a good look at the Schroder CB. The CB simple as it looks is IMHO a better arm. It is every bit as adjustable, has better bearings, and magnetic anti skate and damping that works fabulously well. |
That site also links to a database, but the SAEC WE317 is not listed. I says in the details that it is a high mass arm.
Thanks @bkeske I am trying to figure out whether my are is good quality to begin with. I think it is, or it is good enough. But I have no way of knowing… and don/t really know the effective mass.
Thanks @effischer I’ll ask Christian about the V suspension.
@mijostyn I didn;t know you had a Sota.
I would prefer to avoid the Origin Live based upon my good friend;s experience… (Difficult to set up, wired wrong, and customer service)
My friend ended up with the Kuzma 4.9
I would be wiling to modify the plinth to take a TriPlanner - If (and only If) it offered me some substantially better sound than the SAEC WE317. Maybe that is solely in terms of resonance?
I am not adverse to running a low compliance cartridge. The Garrott Bros p77i is working well. I have had my eye on the Hana ML and some of the SoundSmith ones. So if the SAEC arm is good, but only with a low compliance cartridge, then I think it is more cost effective to hunt for the cartridge that fits the arm’s effective mass??
Christian and I (and Donna) have been in discussion for 1/2 year and the units are coming up to production soonish. I borrowed the good doctor’s stethoscope yesterday to listen to whether the bearings were making sound… It was absolutely “dead” sounding.
@rauliruegas I am guess that the reed would be the 9.5” with the 223mm mounting radius? |
Another long-term Sapphire owner here, and I'm not sure why @rauliruegas is universally down on uni-pivot tonearms. My Graham Phantom is certainly an ideal match for my rig and has been bullet-proof reliable as well as easily repeatable for VTA on-the-fly adjustments. The 9" Supreme version I selected was a drop-in retrofit with a new Sota composite arm board. Set-up was a snap, too. I also took advantage of Sota's Series V suspension and bearing/platter upgrade at the same time and couldn't be happier with the overall package. It's everything I expected in my upgrade from my old Magnepan Unitrac and more versatile by a wide margin. Hope this helps you in your search and happy listening! |
@rauliruegas , That is true, it is surface mounts and could be mounted on anything you can get to the right distance. Why on gods green earth would you ever consider an external arm pod? The tonearm and the platter have to be rigidly mounted on the same very stiff non resonant structure. Where am I wrong about the SEAC? Is it lighter than I think it is? It looks like a boat anchor. But, I do not know the exact spec so in reality you are right. HOWEVER, the arms I mentioned are a lot lighter and more flexible. (notice, I said nothing about sound) I know you like the SME V so don't screw this up.
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@mijostyn , got it but the Reed could work for the second tonearm that needs an external arm pod.
R. |
https://sotaturntables.com/services/updates-upgrades/
and the Eclipse upgrade that mijostyn posted. mijostyn for what you posted you have very low knowledge level on the SAEC tonearm quality performance. Of course that if the 317 colorations is what the op likes then is up to him. R. |
@rauliruegas , Raul, I do not think the Reeds will fit on a Sota. Arms with VTA towers push the horizontal bearing to the out side edge of the tonearm well and the counter weight hits the outside edge before the arm gets to the run out groove. You would have to cut the plinth away for it to work. |
The Origin Live 'Illustrious' is a Tonearm I was demonstrated recently with a Sumiko Pearwood on a Garrad 401 in a light weight Plinth design. I know the Garrard sound well, when it is mounted onto a Massey Plinth. The marriage of all devices that have produced the assembly was for me extremely impressive, and I would like to think it had surpassed my old set up, as I do not recollect such a satisfying extraction from a recording that was enjoyed to this level, especially when additional ancillaries were utilized. The owner of the 401 assembly recently sold their SME 20/12 and SME V Tonearm and was keen to receive a assessment from the local group of the new TT Set Up. The Link is one I showed you previously, there is quite a bit of reading in this thread to discuss Tonearms and the choices that some have made for themselves. I have referenced the Origin Live Brand a few times within this thread, and one user referred to, did not select it as their choice for a Tonearm, following it being used in demonstrations alongside other Models used as comparisons. It just goes to show how a unique preference that a user is sensitive to, or the mounting method selected and preparation of the mounting methods might prove to be critical in influencing a decision being made for a purchase. It does seem that the ears do the final talking when it comes to making such a decision. A lengthier description of the set up used on the demonstration of the 401 can be found in the link. I am a promoter of getting out and experiencing equipment, the lessons that can be learned from the shortest of excursions, can be instrumental in changing thoughts and philosophies on certain strongly held beliefs.
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@holmz , You are getting some really great advice here. As a long term Sota user I would like to add some thoughts. There are several great arms out there that fit the Sota perfectly. As Lew suggests it is always better to stay on the light side as you can always add mass but taking it away can be tough. Your Sota suspension is tuned for a specific tonearm mass. Depending on the age of your table it can be done by adding/subtracting lead shot from a well or using a specifically weighted tonearm board. Once you buy the arm you want to use, weight the arm itself with all the parts attached. Do not weight the cable. Then call Donna at Sota with your Sota's serial number and the tonearm weight. She will supply you with the correct arm board. Tonearms that I know work beautifully on the Sapphire and are of top notch design are the Kuzma 4 Point 9, the Origin Live arms, the Rega arms, the Audiomods arm , SME arms and the Schroder CB. There are very few cartridges out there that can not be made to work in any of these arms. IMHO the three best arms are the SME V, the Kuzma 4 Point9 and the Schroder CB. These three hit all design points I want to see in an arm. There are others out there like the Tri Planar which are great arms but will not fit the Sapphire without modifying the plinth. Would upgrading the arm be worthwhile? I think so, particularly if you go with one of the three arms I mentioned. You will certainly be able to use more cartridges in the medium compliance range. Your SEAC arm is going to work best with something like a Koetsu, cartridges in the lowest compliance group. One more point is that you can upgrade your Sota to the Eclipse drive system, the magnetic bearing, and even a vacuum system. Very few tables can take you that far. |
@holmz - Since the RB3000 was recomemnded I would also suggest taking a look at the Audomods Arms I've had a the old Classis Series 3 with the Micometer VTA for about 11 years and have no thoughts of changing it. The new Series 6 has many improvements Jeff at Audiomods will answer any questions you have about his arms. He can also make mounting plates to suite your turntable in many cases His arms are superb, finely crafted and provide exceptional performance to any turntable He can also recommend cartridges that match his arms perfectly Hope that helps - Steve |
Dear @holmz : Look for no unipivot designs, no matters what. Even that you like stay away of knife bearing designs. Read carefully the tonearm manufacturer site information, is very important. Look for well damped tonearms. Medium mass is fine. Reading reviews from TAS or STPH could help too. Now, even that your cartridges or any cartridge can be well matched about the resonance frequency ideal range same cartridges in different tonearm sounds a little different. Each tonearms it self vibrates/resonates different and are damped in different way but any good choice that you decide will performs really good. Today there are only a few tonearms that you could say: this is a bad tonearm. There are many tonearm manufacturerers. Each one of us tonearm opinions come from our first hand experiences through our room/system that never is near the one you own, so be very carefully here and if you have near tonearm retailers then go to listen it and the same is you have audio friends near your place and I hope you already definied very specific targets for your system that can match it according your MUSIC/sound priorities You need this kind of reference and when listening to other systems or even in yours you need to know exactly what to look for in LP tracks to really know you are near your targets:
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Well, you already ’hit’ on it really. I also have a SOTA (and yes, IMO, it’s a keeper) with A knife edge Jelco S850 MKII, and a Soundsmith MIMC cart. I’ve been toying with the idea of going MC with a Benz cart. I know some don’t like removable head shells, but I like mine, as I can swap in my mono cart, or another, or a MM/MI to MC easily, without the need for two arms. I also would love two arms, but I’m not getting rid of my SOTA. The Soundsmith and Benz, both being low compliance carts, work well with the Jelco 850 which is right around 13-14g effective mass. A higher compliance cart probably would not work as well. Both my Soundsmith carts are a compliance of 10. Most Benz are 15 that I am looking at. Thus, if you are looking at a very light effective mass arm (5-8g as example) your cart selection will be limited to higher compliance carts (20-28+/-g). On the other hand, if you are looking at medium to high mass arms, you will be limited to lower to medium compliance carts (10-22+/-). There are many who simply love low mass arms, and I get it per the carts they desire. Now, this is simply ’in general’. Weight of the cart, etc. also comes into play. Here is a good site which you can input many variables to see if a particular arm and cart will be acceptable together: http://www.mh-audio.nl/Calculators/RF.html My view is from a relative ’newby’ getting back into vinyl over the last few years. I’m sure others will have views with more years being active in vinyl. I had put my rig away over 25 years ago before getting back into it recently. Just get a good quality arm regardless. Don’t skimp here if looking for something new. |
