Can I set the ground rules up front?? I hope so. There are two camps. One who can hear different audible reproduction using aftermarket fuses. The second camp can not justify in theory, or can not hear a difference in fuses. Fine. I respect both camps. Can we hold this discussion to those who can hear an audible difference in fuses?? Can we? If so, what is your choice in aftermarket fuses and describe, please, what you hear.
Is it just me or does the pro audio and the audio industry in general seem to be very slow? Slow to understand the significance of a lot of the things that are obviously high end audio things. But still, you’d think they would be motivated by something or another to look into some of these things. But maybe I’m giving them too much credit. Prolly just ego.
The pbnaudio post that just preceded me is a prime example of what I mean. 😛
wolf_garcia"to profit from "magic tweaks" you really need to engage a cadre of enthusiastic sales people armed with hyperbole to push a product that is immune to objective criticism ("I don't know HOW it works, but it transforms your system and has a 30 day return policy"), and banter about it ad nauseam in a discussion forum to lure otherwise naive, gullible, or insecure audio fans. That's how you do it."
There is an honest way you could achieve incredible fame and fortune based on your beliefs this is especially true if you live in the US! Just get a lawyer and sue you can do this under your countries' RICO statute which I understand is used for just this sort of organized crime and you could also apply and almost certainly be granted Class Action status which would then allow you to collect a share from those many audiophiles who you think have been "fleeced" as you Americans like to say and you would be wealthy beyond you're wildest dreams for the rest of your life! There is no downside for you and there is no risk because in America you can get lawyer's on "contingency" because they will also share in the profits once you expose this hideous, vile and predatory practice on audiophiles and since you are so sure of yourself and you're believes it should be easy and I have offered this opportunity previously to several users and am simply confused that none have followed this path yet they continue to post hear regularly about this gross miscarriage of justice that they call this matter!
@geoffkait maybe pro audio is slower to take on this stuff because they actually, usually, have a basic understanding of how this stuff works. It's harder to get them to believe in magic fairy dust.
To clarify Kaitty’s insider claims, I was wrong...it wasn’t an imaginary conference call, it was an imaginary online thing...Kaitty said: "I was in an online conference two days ago with principals of HiFi Tuning and Synergistic Research and a dealer for both." From the Blue Fuse thread...it wasn’t a 2 day thing...I stand corrected except for the part that this sort of thing among competitors never actually happens in the business world. Also, the reason I don't make up nonsense and market it is simply because that would be unethical and perhaps criminal, neither of which I find particularly appealing.
Hey ... !!! The site you provided is selling a five-pack of fuses for just under nine bucks. What’s up with these profiteering, capitalistic, piggish slugs? Haven’t they heard of "Economic Justice," or "Leveling the Playing Field?" How are "those who work for a living" going to afford fuses at over a dollar a pop?
You can do better, pbnaudio. There have been several members here on these sites who have sworn up and down that great fuses are available for twenty-cents that will do what the after market fuses will do ... and anyone who pays more is an utter fool.
I buy my fuses from Mouser Electronics and only use the ones form reputable manufactures like Little Fuse - and they mostly come in 100 Qty packs - the Amazon ink was to make it more accessible to end users. Pricing by the way is pretty good from Amazon.
Thanks for the fuse link. Hopefully, Wolf_Garcia, slaw and other naysayers will link onto it and make a fortune. Hey, considering the bulk discount if one were to buy a lot of 5000 fuses, paint them blue, then re-market them for $150 a pop, there’s almost a $750,000 profit to be made here. Come on naysayers jump on the snake oil bandwagon. Join the get rich conga line.
Just a smidgen of ethics would hold most people back from actively promoting and helping others make money off of a scam. But obviously you wouldn’t understand what that is.
shadorne"Just a smidgen of ethics would hold most people back from actively promoting and helping others make money off of a scam."
How can you devote such frequent, focussed and relentless energy objecting to these alleged "scams" and racketeers as audiophiles are supposedly fleeced by the thousands yet not take decisive action to end this claimed horrific violation of the most basic consumer laws? Why don't you get yourself a competent attorney who will accept your complaint and action on a contingency basis and sue these fraudsters for once and for all and drive a nail in the coffin of snakeoil! You almost certainly can be granted Class Action status which would yield you upon victory riches that are probably beyond your wildest imagination and if you are already wealthy imagine how you could help others with this newfound pot of wealth! There is no downside for you, no risk and no chance of loss and since you are so sure of yourself and you're closely held convictions it should be easy. You continue to post hear regularly about this gross miscarriage of justice that you call this matter so why not take positive, decisive, formal action rather than continue to just object, complain and accuse?
Is it because you know that the snakeoil that you allege is not snakeoil at all and that you have no proof against it because that it was it appears to be.
Of course a Littelfuse or any other cheap stock fuse will work. But this is not about fuses working. It’s about sound quality. The Littelfuse argument makes about as much sense as saying a boom box works. Sure, a boom box works and you might be able to live with it, but come on!
Who the heck and probably more importantly WHY the heck was this old argument that can never be won by ANYBODY here even if you cast the enormous egos out resurrected? PLEASE give us all a break!
I am going to go play music, with my fuses, warts and all....
"Just a smidgen of ethics would hold most people back from actively promoting and helping others make money off of a scam. But obviously you wouldn’t understand what that is."
Now THAT’S gratitude for ya. Here I am trying to give you an avenue to become a multi-billionaire, and you puke out a personal attack. What’s up with that, shadorne?
By your own admission, there are ten-cent fuses available that sound just as good as the after market fuses. Member "pbnaqudio" has done extensive research scouting out a source for the basic tools ... the fuses and the coloring method ... and you respond with a personal attack? Boy, talk about a non-appreciative individual.
Come on, shadorne ... order the fuses in the 5000 discounted lot, color them purple, put a free ad on Craig’s List ... and let the big bucks roll in.
Was it you who was contemplating using "Total Contact" to tighten your sphincter? Obviously, based upon your last post, which was a personal attack on my ethics as a human being, you have tried the sphincter experiment. How’s it working out for you? Has it improved your social life around the bar scene lately?
Step up to the plate, shadorne. Buy the fuses, color them, run the ads, make billions, or forever be exposed as the phony that you and your inane posts really are.
As the OP, I am truly disappointed. Has Anyone Read The Post? I had hoped this could be a discussion about "This is what I hear if I put Fuse A into Component B." There are enough threads on Audiogon that discuss whether there is any merit to aftermarket fuses, or if they are complete snake oil. GRrrr.
About 9 months ago, I was trying to optimize the performance of an Audio Research Reference 6 preamp which was feeding a D'Agostino S-250 amplifier, a particularly synergistic pairing. I tried both the Synergistic Research Black and Blue fuses in the Ref 6, and found both to improve the system sound. I had even purchased two more aftermarket fuses and intended to do a "fuse shoot-out". But somewhere in there, I bought a VTL TL-7.5 III, which with the right tubes in place, overshadowed the Ref 6, especially in the highs. I sold the Ref 6 and haven't revisited aftermarket fuses since. But put me in the camp that believes fuses can change and improve the sound of a system. I've heard it.
I think the ratio of those who can hear the difference in good aftermarket fuses and those who cannot are about 10,000 to 1.
The REF-6 is an amazing piece. If the VTL is better, it must be super amazing too. Just think how it would sound with an SR Blue fuse in it ... or an Omega E Mat under it.
I'm curious ... you say the VTL is better in the highs. What connotes "better" in your opinion? Is the overall clarity and realism better as well? If so, that's really saying something.
^^^ Couldn't agree more. Same for a few other's who continue stirring the pot with nonsense and personal attacks. I know I sound like a broken record, but these few naysayers are destroyers of joy in the world. Imagine being married to one of them.
@jafreeman really, wtf? Wolf isn’t calling you or anyone else names (well ok, maybe Geoff sometimes), so why resort to that? He is consistent in his opinions and provides another side to the discussion.
There are many of us here with pretty good systems that simply do not buy into the whole fuse (or cable) thing. Over the past 20+ years here, people have gone on about the phenomenal system improvements they achieve every time they change fuses or cables. After 20 years of phenomenal improvements, those people must have the musicians sitting in their laps by now.
I have had much better success upgrading components than spending a bunch of time, energy and money on cables or fuses. In fact, my amps, preamp, server, and DAC have all received upgrades by their respective manufacturers as new technology became available. Those component upgrades provided vastly greater system improvements to my ears than any cable or fuse change I have made. My main goal with cables is to not screw up the sound, which I find to be somewhat proportional to the amount of man-made materials in the cable dielectrics and coverings.
@oregonpapa Nobody ever became a multi-billionaire by selling fuses. Audio Magic took standard glass fuses, drilled tiny holes in them and pumped them full of beeswax. I doubt there are any multi-billionaires over there.
These cable/fuse threads are mostly slow train wrecks where the amusement factor far outweighs the technical value. How many times can someone stand to be told what they should be hearing? It would be nice if the folks sharing these opinions (some with over 10K posts, hint, hint) would take the time to post their systems, which would provide context to their comments. Kudos to you Frank and Joe for doing a nice job of posting your systems.
Objecting to the hard sell of nonsensical and inexplicable pseudo tweaks is tough on people who have bought into the hyperbole fueled sales scams and fraudulent claims. I get that, and my sympathies go out to those who rely on others to tell them how they should hear things, and those fragile butterflies who remain frightened of criticism of the often expensive tweaks that allow them to imagine they can hear new things. Regarding oregonpapa’s "10,000 to 1" comment, it’s a fact that MOST rational hifi geeks are too smart to be lured into the fake tweak world, and the ratio of those who know their stock fuses work as well as premium "magic" junk (including the vast majority of brilliant audio component designers) is likely 1,000,000 to 1. Also it’s interesting that Kaitty claims to not actually use "special" or any other fuses in his walkman/headphone rig, he simply joins the conversation hoping somebody will buy his closet full of magic pebbles and his claim of being an "industry insider"...he clearly needs the attention.
Wolf I have nothing against you personally whatsoever or indeed anybody on these forums, we are all just keyboard warriors in that aspect. However I do take umbrage at your constant statements that just because you do not hear a difference and think it is mumbo jumbo then EVERYBODY else who can must be deranged or self deluded. THAT is an insult, period. At least that is the way I see it. But insult away, I KNOW what I hear and my arm was not twisted by anybody, nobody is paying me to say a fuse makes a sonic difference to my ears in my rig in my house. In my life I have wasted considerably more than $150 on items that did not work or other reasons. With a 30 day money back I had nothing to lose. What is the problem?
Oh, geez, don’t tell me someone is actually trying to reason with Wolfie. He’s just playing his stupid game. Trying to reason with him as if he was a serious skeptic is a little bit like trying to pee up a rope. Just because he cast his bait doesn’t mean you have to bite.
wolf_garcia Consider this: others objecting to what you call the hard sell of what you insist is nonsensical and inexplicable pseudo tweaks is tough on people like you who believe the industry suffers hyperbole fueled sales scams and fraudulent claims. I get that, and my sympathies go out to those who insist on telling others how they should hear things, because those fragile butterflies remain frightened of criticism by those who’ve actually had positive experiences with tweaks that allow them to hear new things. Regarding oregonpapa’s "10,000 to 1" comment, I understand you claim it’s a fact that MOST rational hifi geeks are too smart to explore the tweak world, and the ratio of those who insist their stock fuses work as well as what they imagine are premium "magic" junk (including the vast majority of brilliant audio component designers) is likely 1,000,000 to 1, so I'm not sure why you are so upset over what you call "junk." Clearly you need the attention.
The AR Ref 6 IS an amazing piece, and quite a bargain at around $15K, and a steal if found used. I probably would have had no complaints about the Ref 6 had I not been able to drive my amp directly with my Berkeley processor. Especially on close-miked piano, the highs rang crystal clear like bells when driven directly. With the Ref 6, the same highs took on an ever so slightly tinny quality. So, I took on the project of trying to improve the highs of the Ref 6. A Sain Line Systems power cord did a lot. Genuine Reflektor tubes helped a bit. And the highs with the Synergistic Black fuse took on a more crystal clear character. The Black fuse was better than the Blue, in this regard. But the Blue may have been better, overall.
Then I got offered the VTL TL 7.5 III at a Could Not Refuse price. I could have easily sold it and made some money had I not loved it. I Love It. The VTL has a clarity and purity in the highs I could never quite achieve with the AR.
Otherwise, their presentation is different. Not better. Not worse. The Ref 6 has a more dynamic, forward image, like Row E. The VTL has a more laid-back organic presentation, more like Row J.
So much depends on system matching. The Ref 6 was a fantastic mate to the D'Agostino. The VTL, at best, sounded mediocre. However, I greatly prefer the VTL with a pair of Lamm M 1.2 Reference monos. They just meld better. Ultimately, I chose the VTL/Lamm combo over the Audio Research/D'Agostino. But both combos were Highly Musical.
The VTL offers one more thing the Audio Research really can't, and that's tube rolling. I can pretty much make the VTL sound however I want based upon the 12AU7 tubes I have installed. And, yes, I tried Telefunken, Siemens, Amperex, Mullard, JJ, Cifte, you name it. And get this- my choice in preamp tubes? Mid 60s long plate Toshiba Japan 12AU7s.
Now, somebody out there tell me that all tubes sound the same. ;)
So, one of your main benchmarks is how well the system reproduces the piano, correct? Me too. I've always said, get the piano right, and everything else seems to fall into place.
I highly, and sincerely recommend that you get involved with the Omega E Mats. Ask Fleischer what he heard at my place when it came to the piano with the E Mats installed. Its really something ... and with your present system, it would be fantastic.
If you lived close enough, I'd love to have you over for a listen.
On wolf_garcia, shadrone, slaw and a few other naysayers ...
They remind me of my brother. He's one of the biggest skeptics on the planet. Its a personality type where their biggest fear is being taken advantage of.
To them, everything is either a conspiracy, a scam, or something else nefariously designed to cheat them out of their hard earned money. They suspect everyone, including their doctors, their real estate agents, and anyone who pats them on the back. They have the persona of a "Mr. Full Charge." If they're not in control of a given situation, they feel out of control.
Where most people have to like you before they trust you, these folks have to trust you before they like you. The biggest mistake a salesperson can make with these people is to try to glad-hand them. If you do, their first thought is ... "What is this guy trying to get out of me?" you can see it almost immediately. Their eyes narrow, they cross their arms and legs and frown like frowns are going to leave the planet.
The best approach is to just let them be in charge ... let them lead. Let them think that everything is their idea. Let them tell you what's needed. If you tell them, they think you're lying. If they tell you, they know that THEY don't lie ... so all is okay.
They make great cops ... and I'm not dissing cops here either. I have a LEO for a son in law, and my brother is a retired California Highway Patrolman. Both great guys. Both have a jaundiced eye and both can scope out the suspicious among us in a nano-second. Hell to deal with if you're a salesman or a proprietor of a business of any type though. To them, everyone is lying. Everything is a scam. Nothing is worth the asking price ... and you are not going to tell them jack ... they will tell YOU.
They miss out on a lot of joy in life because of their suspicious nature. Sometimes, you just have to trust the other guy and believe that most people are honest and upright ... until they prove themselves otherwise.
Yes. I have found that if a system gets well-recorded piano and a woman's voice right, pretty much anything else is on point. Then get string bass right, and.. Nirvana!
I love the VTL preamp So much, that I got curious about how that might sound with a VTL amplifier. So, I now have a VTL S-400 II in house. I am presently trying to get the right combo of tubes in it. I'm close. The Lamms come within 96% of the VTL, with great bass. The VTL has adequate bass, but not enough drive for legendary Krell bass. Or Lamm bass, for that matter. But that other 4%, from the mids on up, OMG. Spectacular reproduction. I'm going to have to keep both amps.
Once I get the right tubes settled, Ill be ready to try some tweaks. Fuses, etc. Much thanks for the line on the vibration mat.
I live in Wyoming. If you ever visit Yellowstone, feel free to drop me a line.
I have 4 "gourmet" fuses here. They are all 5A Long Slow Blow to fit an Audio Research Ref. 6.
Two are Synergistic Research, Blue and Black. I think the Black most improved the highs, which is what I was going for. But the Blue probably was best overall.
I also have an Audio Magic SHD Beezwax, and a Supreme fuse from Hi-Fi Tuning. These two are new in the box and never used.
Tipped up highs and tighter or less bass is "better" to many people with (too) big speakers in damped rooms. And those qualities are not difficult to get with an aftermarket fuse.
I’m not entirely sure I would take anyone’s word for which fuse is better since there are a number of variables that could tilt the results on way or the other. I don’t have to tell you what those variables are.
I don't miss out on anything by being skeptical of overhyped nonsense. I don't question every tweak, only ones I feel are hyperbole festooned nonsense. I understand many feel they experience benefits from inexplicable (or at least never explicted) tweaks like special fuses, as who wouldn't want to think they got their money's worth? My experience (and thorough testing of some SR stuff) tells me that fuses are simply fuses, and I've heard zero logical or even illogical explanations of why a fuse that is simply a fuse will actually do anything musical in a circuit, even with claims from Kaitty that it's been explained. Claims of "special" materials making the fuse work better somehow, or direction reversal making a difference, could possibly only provide the tiniest of differences that become swamped and rendered irrelevant by the piles of circuitry that components contain. That's simply a fact. If my writing about the hyperbole seems offensive to anybody I obviously don't care, as clearly I chafe at the silly hype and ridiculous claims of fuse "magic." Tell me that putting premium valve stem caps on my BMW tires will make it corner faster, provide testimonials from users to back up those claims, and I'll still point out how ridiculous that is.
Wolf I have proven beyond a shadow of any doubt that the yellow racing stripes I added to my Mustang gave it at least another half second in the quarter and 10 mph on the top end...….
The difference between a stock fuse, and an SR Blue fuse is dramatic. If anyone can't hear the difference, then I'd be questioning one of two things ... either the system, or the ears. Maybe both.
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