Dennis is a snake oil salesman. Go watch videos of professional studio tours and you’ll see nothing close to that. In fact, one I just saw yesterday they even joked about the fact that the acoustics company proposed a budget that was literally the same as the cost of the building. They laughed at them and then just did it themselves with some internet research and using their own ears.
Acoustic treatment question: do you agree with Dennis Foley that $46k to $65k is required?
In a video from 1/29/2021 (yesterday) Dennis Foley, Acoustic Fields warns people about acoustic treatment budgets. He asserts in this video that treatment will likely require (summing up the transcript):
Low end treatment: $5-10k
Middle-high frequency: $1-1.5k
Diffusion: Walls $10-15k, Ceiling: $30, 40, 50k
https://youtu.be/6YnBn1maTTM?t=160
Ostensibly, this is done in the spirit of educating people who think they can do treatment for less than this.
People here have warned about some of his advice. Is this more troubling information or is he on target?
For those here who have treated their rooms to their own satisfaction, what do you think of his numbers?
124 responses Add your response
I believe his low end absorption 30hz to 100 hz is second to none. I prefer GIK for 100hz on up for the price. I will have spent a total of $7,500 on absorption in my small room. Dennis actually said diffusion wouldn't work in my HT/Music room. I am.only going to get 60-75% treatment which was enough for me. That YouTube video made it clear that diffusion is the real high cost of treatment. |
No, I don't agree. I've had a recording engineer and the owner of a high end stereo salon over to my humble one bedroom apartment and they both loved the acoustics and my set up. When asked, they both said not to bother with any room treatment as I listen in a somewhat, near field perspective. One even walked around, clapping to see if there's any bad echos and couldn't elicit one. It could be that I'm lucky with the room dimensions. Who knows. But to spend that kind of money is going way overboard, IMHO. At the high end salon owners house, his listening room is large and at first glance, you don't see any treatment, anywhere and yet, he told me it took awhile before he got it to where he likes it. The first thing you notice is there's lots of space around the speakers. After a long listening session at his place, I come home to hear mostly the same thing. Goes to show you that nothing is an absolute. If I ever get lucky enough to have a larger place, with a dedicated listening area, I'd try this out first: http://www.mother-of-tone.com/acoustic_panel.htm to see if it works. It's relatively cheap and can be done by oneself, or by someone who can put it up for not much. The use of the organic lacquer used to treat the wood reminds me of what that recording engineer told me of what he offered to Disney Hall to improve the sound there: some kind of treatment to the panels they use being all it would take. They never took him up on it. All the best, Nonoise |
You can reconstruct acoustically a room at high price... Or create for example at low cost a grid of different Helmoltz resonators and solve the problem of room bass modes... You can use cheap Schumann generators and small passive resonators and ionizer to act more on the high frequencies... You can use cheap materials well chosen to treat.... You ears will say if it is good or not.... But it will takes time and experiments.... But it is way more fun than buying anything costly... It cannot work only in my room ! 😁 but it is not easy in a living room ... I always forgot that cheap solutions are ugly.... Sorry i will mute myself.... |
Oh, not sure who brought this up but yes, floor and ceiling are hugely important places to consider room treatment. Also, keep in mind that even if you can't get everything where you want it, room acoustics are statistical, not absolutes. You can make up for deficiencies in one spot by adding more in another. More or less. Of course, early reflections are hard to compensate for if you can't fix them, but they are only a small part of the story. Controlling bass modes, and the overall decay of signals in the room is as if not more important. GIK makes art panels and I am thinking of having ceiling panels that look like a night sky. Or white to disappear on the ceiling. |
I like Dennis, and appreciate his knowledge, especially regarding room issues, and what to look for, or, look out for. But understand, his career has mostly been in high end design, fabrication, and installations. As I understand, he is getting out of the absolute designing and installing a complete room as a turn key solution (mostly due to health issues). He is concentrating on on making and selling his products going forward. Obviously he believes in a quality level for his products and services that will solve issues in they way he thinks they should be solved. Fine. I’m in the design/build field and understand that desire as long as there are clients to spend money and pay the bills, but understand, his products are not for any or everybody. But I’m sure they work, and work very well. I would certainly trust his knowledge, expertise, and his products. But could I afford them. Again, as I am in the design/build business, you would probably be shocked at what some clients are willing to spend on a single room vs the ‘norm’. Some would say ‘that’s crazy’ and another ‘that’s what I want and I’ll spend the money to get it’. Geez, we have some in this hobby we who will spend $60,000+ for speakers or an amplifier, so why not the same or similar on room treatment? Most folks will think it’s crazy to spend even $1,000 for speakers, let alone a phono cartridge. Are there cheaper solutions? Yes, just as there are cheaper speakers. Will they be as good as his products? Well, he doesn’t think so, so is only going to cater to those clients who believe in him, his products, and that comes with a certain cost. If you can’t afford Dennis’ products and solutions, go elsewhere. But if you want his products, expect to pay a premium for them. I’m certainly not going to beat him up for that, nor believing in his products and knowledge. |
Oldhvymec He has - Ceiling treatment and moves a heavy bear skin rug in front of him.. Staring at that bear while listening, kinda weird.. Sure works good though.. A new excitement in your listening environment, when you nod off a little after a hard day at work, and you open those eyes see that bear staring at you for split second your heart races and you attribute it to your sound system. Cool |
Well, I have made the point in this very forum that there is a minimum amount of critical mass needed before you take a live room and tame it enough to get real improvements. Four 2'x4' panels? Probably not a lot of benefit. Maybe 6-8 panels plus some serious bass traps... now we are talking! I should point out that while I am a big fan of GIK, especially for their advice services, ATS acoustics is also very good and even more reasonable. |
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IF it did cost that much to get great or even good sound, I'd be on a headphone rampage.. I want to add some heavy HEAVY curtains the full width of my room in front of 2 36" french door.. It was close to 5K for really good curtains runners, motors, the whole shabang.. I think it will take an honest 7-8k so I can stand to look at it.. Two more curtains on the long walls. In my room. The better sounding rooms to me use curtains, Easy to over dampen a room. Some music needs more than others.. A friend of mine set his room up that way.. Just open or close the curtains.. Easy to clean.. He has 15k in his set up... about 70 feet of full length curtains.. Ceiling treatment and moves a heavy bear skin rug in front of him.. Staring at that bear while listening, kinda weird.. Sure works good though.. The only problem WAS line of sight remotes and equipment behind curtains..He has it all figured out now.. The weird, block diffusers, YUK.. I like beautiful things.. curves.. Not spectral decay charts on the walls.. :-) Regards |
When my children and wife look at my room they refrain themselves to call a psychiatric unit, but when they listen to my music, they forgot to call the medic and thyy "this is so good"... Then this is the reason i walk free....But she dislike my audio room....But she like the fact that no more costly upgrades are in my backhead at all...She keep me... 😊 |
Acoustic treatment question: do you agree with Dennis Foley that $46k to $65k is required? Absolutely!! Can't wait to drop $46K to $65K in my man cave. To a near certainty, I expect that when my wife see what I did (or propose to do) to my sound room (in HER house) and how much it will cost, ... she'll drop me, my stereo and the room treatments on the sidewalk and change the locks. :) |
For those here who have treated their rooms to their own satisfaction, what do you think of his numbers?Perfectly sound and at the same times rubbish.... Sound if you wanted a PERFECT pro treatment ... Rubbish for me....I need only a relatively good one for my perceiving ears... I create mine at no cost....By the way his video explanation are very good... I dont doubt his competence... I had no competence in acoustic....But.... The goal is the vibraphone and piano sound must be simultaneously distinctly perceived in their own space with a distinct timbral tone and his aural varying colors and hues and his decreasing decays, all that filling the room 3-d and not coming from the speakers.... Now i have it with a 500 bucks system ....Could it be better? yes...Does i wanted to pay for an improvement? are you silly? Never....I am too busy listening music now.... 😁 It cost me 2 years of listening experiments but it was fun.... He sells his product.... It is Ok.... It is a pro and must be paid...But who can afford 45 thousand dollars for room only ? And how for the system? 😁 Audio is more a snake pit for money when you dont know how to do than it is a snake oil problem .... But is all the truth contained in this advertisement? No.... By the way we can use non orthodox acoustical tools that are not even in his box tool...And i use some at no cost.... The truth is this: i could create my thing BECAUSE i could afford one room only for audio use... That is the main factor....without this specialized room i could not have made a so good result.... some of my device are awful or not convenient in a common room.... Then a room is the main important factor in audio for me not the dac or the turntable or even the speakers.... Sad truth for many.... But the good news is acoustic controls could be low cost.... |
Thanks, guys. This video is indicating that these ranges are designating the *minimum* amounts one needs to spend to get any real improvement. I’m trying to read between the lines, here. I suspect that Foley is either (a) tired of dealing with customers not willing to spend much at all or have unreasonable expectations or (b) is trying to acclimate his potential clientele to spending a lot of money with his company. Or both. |
I agree with Mapman. I think overall those prices are too high, but it depends. If you are building a room from scratch, and looking to incorporate bass traps in it, and the like, then those prices are right. However, no, GIK makes great products including absolutely wonderful bass traps that you'd be hard pressed to treat a modest living room and spending more than $10K. My own living room will end up being around $3K, see pictures in my system. |