Accuphase dac 60

@martinl07d sounds great for what it is. I'm sure there are external dacs that sound just as good, but don't have the time or money to mess around with other ones. Congrats on the e4000, awesome integrated!

I have just purchased an Accuphase E4000

Can u give me an update on how your DAC 60 sounds now ?

TY 

@duketbrd88 

thanks for closing the loop to let us know...  now enjoy the tunes with big smiles!

@charles1dad 

thank you 

This was never an accuphase or ps audio problem, just me, user error

As you say, a learning experience (Which are part of the process and worthwhile). Everyone has had these in some manner or another. Bottom line is that you finally sorted things out and the Accuphase DAC 60 is sounding great! I’m happy for your outcome.

Charles

Well guys after looking around and getting sick of looking around at dac's, I decided to give the Accuphase dac 60 card another try and so far sounds great. Just glad I found the original cable problem and everything is fixed and sounding great. After this long thread, just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your help. I also learned how much louder and about voltage of xlr outputs on dac's and level matching at least. Never knew that before. Not sure if this is the case with all xlr outputs, such as preamps etc..

I learned a lot from all of this and hopefully someone else might have. Still waiting on a streamer, haven't decided, but will probably be a bluesound node. So, thanks again to everyone and everyone I might have not responded to for your help. 

This was never an accuphase or ps audio problem, just me, user error. 

@rms456 

Thanks, I decided to not keep the dac 60. I want to get something with more inputs and xlr outputs. I feel like there is a lot to choose from in the $1,000 to $2,000 price range. Now I don't know what to look at. I see the denafrips pontus ii is pretty popular. IDK and there is a lot on the used market. So any suggestions?

@duketbrd88 , an iPhone, bluesound is not the choice of source for the DAC60. A laptop is not close either, too much noise in the USB, which needs a lot of clean up hardware, like the ifi micro usb3.

The sound will be shrill, the treble will splash, and bass drum will be like hitting a paper bag if a laptop iPhone or bluesound is used as a source. 

I can't offer any other suggestions, as a media server topic is beyond this thread and I'm still experimenting, there's no silver bullet here for now.

I was thinking just a bluesound node and use the bluOS app on my phone to control qobuz?

@rms456 

thanks, I don’t have streaming setup yet. Was looking into a MacBook. Cheap as possible, just for music. I guess I could look into a windows based laptop. I basically use my iPhone 12pro for everything now.

The only thing I use besides the iPhone is a chrome book. I don’t think I can use that for music.

What are my cheapest options computer wise with a usb? Was thinking about a bluesound node.. idk, just getting into the streaming thing and not sure which direction to go that isn’t a fortune.

@duketbrd88 , glad to hear a found mechanical problem was the root cause of the lower volume.

A venerable E-450 in the office has seen a few add in DACs DAC30, 40, 50... each one's level matches the amp's gain and each one improves the sound. For the older DACx , I move them into the other option slot to add in a coax or optical input, works well, the major change is the USB input/

Not sure if you have PC for playing, be sure to install the ASIO driver that can be downloaded from the Accuphase site, it has a buffer selector to compensate for those players that don't have a buffer. The install is quite finicky, so it helps to follow the instructions correctly.

Like all Accuphase gear, they very rarely breakdown, if in the future something comes amiss, check the computer first. In one case, the DAC-50 didn't work off the bat, tried another computer and worked fine, both were Windows10 installs. 

If the USB source is powered off, the signal goes through, but nothing plays. In this case stop the player, disconnect the USB and reinsert again. This 99% of the time works when the player is restarted and music starts to play.

@jjss49 

Thanks, I’m sure I will. Appreciate it!

@duketbrd88 

glad you found the culprit to the weird behavior!

once your dac 60 card is back and making music like it is supposed to, i am sure you will enjoy the music even more than with the psa d-link...

all the best!

@westcoastaudiophile 

thanks, good to know. I wish I had the time, energy and money to try a bunch of dac’s, but I don’t.

just going to stick with the dac 60 when it gets back to me.

"In my opinion, AKM is sonically superior to ESS"

agreed 100%, the best DAC I have is dual AK4499EQ design with class A discrete bal/unbal outputs 

True, AKM chips sound warmer, closer to tube.

@rhg3 

sure, glad it’s fixed.

@susurin 

from like the only YouTube video where a guy demoed both, you could tell the dac 50 was on the warmer side and the dac 60 was brighter.

not much out there on these dac’s.

Accuphase used AKM chips in the DAC 50, then the chip factory burned down and they ran out of chips.  They were forced to switch to other chips and chose ESS chips and by force of chance introduced the new DAC 60 card. In my opinion, AKM is sonically superior to ESS.

Thanks very much for the update!

Took me a full day trying to replace cables that should have taken 20 minutes max. All because I was using my non dominant hand and the pain of my shoulder. Yes, I had extra brand new exact same cables.

Well, besides the gain that I know about now and reading on another  thread here about it, I believe I found the problem with the testing.

My son and a friend where moving some furniture for me and finally told me they bumped my rack. 

found one xlr cable end was messed up at the ps audio output & my coaxial cable from my CD player was screwed up. They got pinched between my stand and the wall and where working intermittently, I believe when the sub was hitting low notes. I was able to finally get down there and shake the cables around and they were definitely causing issues.
 

I replaced all cables with spares I had and it is sounding better now, back to normal. Stupid coincidence the same time I had the dac 60. I can’t move or check anything because I had rotator cuff surgery three weeks ago. Plus he moved some equipment around for me. So, something happened in that time period.

he’s 17 and I guess was nervous to mention it. So, the dac 60 card will be returning to me by next week. What a mess. It was driving me nuts why everything sounded so off sometimes.

Just thought everyone deserved an update.
 

I am honestly thinking I should try another dac 60 card, possibly something wrong with the one I had. From the few reviews I have read on the dac 50 card are all positive. I mean they make top notch stuff, so it should be an awesome dac. I will talk to the dealer this morning and get his thoughts.

it is just overwhelming for me with all these options out there that makes the dac 60 seem so much easier and simpler.

scratch that post above. I like this integrated to much to exchange it. I was just letting you guys know I had that option.

Thanks 

I am just wondering and probably should be at a step up from my current 18 year old  ps audio digital link iii dac? It’s a free 30 day in home trial before I have to return my older dac or the stellar dac. I just pay for shipping on the return, which ever I decide.

or… I could go a total opposite direction and upgrade my accuphase integrated to a Hegel h590 and have an all in one setup through my 1 year trade up program. Just throwing this out there. It is an option I do have. 
 

I can’t demo it as no one around me has hegel or Accuphase. When I bought the Accuphase integrated, I just took a chance hoping I would like it and luckily I did.

Any of you running the hegel h390 or 590? Every review seems positive.

thanks again everyone

i don't have an informed opinion on ps audio's gain cell dac

i did have their former top-of-line fpga directstream dac for some time, with windom then sunlight firmware versions, it was a decent dac, but to my ear outperformed by others in its (admittedly high) price category

What is your opinion on the link to the ps audio stellar gain dac? I really just use the xlr because I had two sets of the kimber hero in my system for so long. I have nothing against the rca hookup at all.

There seems more emphasis on its preamplifier capabilities than as a DAC. Doesn’t mean that the DAC section isn’t good. As has been said, at 2K you have numerous good options. 

I definitely agree with above comments about single end vs XLR/balanced connections. Most certainly depends on design focus, optimization and implementation. Don’t just assume that balanced is better by default. Not true, circumstances and specifics matter. 
 

Some of the absolute best sounding audio systems I have heard were  single ended (RCA) connected from one end to the other.

Charles

@jjss49 

Thanks, I tried the db meter app on my phone to compare. There is a difference. I sent the dac back to the dealer. Don’t think I want to try another one. I kind of like the fact there are so many choices and can sell or trade up, not so easy with the accuphase dac. Not much info out there on them at all and pretty hard to sell, it seems like.

What is your opinion on the link to the ps audio stellar gain dac? I really just use the xlr because I had two sets of the kimber hero in my system for so long. I have nothing against the rca hookup at all.

anyway, I can upgrade to the newer one in the link and get full price for what I paid a long time ago. Obviously I wouldn’t use the preamp section, but it is there if I need it someday.

@duketbrd88

to answer your earlier question

xlr is theoretically the better connection, but for high end home audio 95+% of the time single ended (rca) connections work just fine with zero sonic penalty in a properly set up system ... especially using short (less than 3 meter) interconnect runs

then there is the matter of dac designers and how/what they optimize in their output stages.... two prominent, well respected designers of dacs... mojo audio (ben zwickel) and msb (jonathan gullman), both clearly state that they feel their dacs sound better, more natural, more harmonious, through their single ended outputs... even though they offer xlr’s for the convenience of their customers (ben charges extra for xlr as it involves more circuitry)

regarding lack of perceived bass at low volumes, you should search ’fletcher munson effect’, there was a recent thread here discussing that

always, always, compare two sources at the SAME volume when trying to hear sonic differences... your cell phone has easily downloadable ’db-meter’ apps, go to app store... play test tone, note volume settings to make two sources equal, then adjust before evaluating...

...and if you bought the accuphase dac card from a dealer, i would certainly push them to exchange a fresh one, so you can be sure yours in hand is not problematic

I can trade in my old pas audio dac for this. Last one in black for $1,149. That is the trade in program with my $750 off. I wouldn’t use the preamp section, but it is there if I ever need it. 

What do you guys think of that.

@celestial__sound 

thanks, I will look into my options that you guys suggested. Appreciate the help.👍

I have had a similar experience to you and can make an informed recommendation for a potentially good DAC to try. I have a Luxman L-550axii amplifier which is quite warm, smooth and refined like your Accuphase. I also use a Bluesound NODE as source, just like you are planning. I found a good DAC with synergy to be the Chord Qutest which cost me about £800 in the UK. It is very good at excavating detail which balances out the smoothness of the amp. I find USB to be to clinical for my taste and prefer to feed it with an optical cable because that sounds more organic to my ears and has the benefit of preventing any electrical noise from entering the DAC. It doesn't have balanced connectors though, only single ended. The Qutest has three gain settings to choose from; 1v, 2v and 3v, the higher the voltage the fuller and more impactful it sounds, I use it on 3v. It's a bit quirky to use but full of character and they seem to hold their value.

PS - I found this website because I'm thinking about the E-380 as a potential upgrade so I have a bit of an ulterior motive in recommending the DAC I use. But I think it would be an option worth considering alongside the R2R DACs others are suggesting because I think those might be too smooth with that amp, too much of a good thing.

Way better bass, midrange and treble.

That's can't be true, its only illusion cause  PS DAC plays way more louder at the same volume level. As I said earlier, if you match the volume level I'm sure Accu. DAC 60 will wipe the floor with PS audio DAC.  

Would you have any ideas for a good dac around $1500 that would compare to the dac 60 card and be good with a bluesound node streamer, when I get one? 

If you can starch your budget I would look at the Holo Audio Spring DAC. It's R2R DAC measures very well and sounds amazing. For a bit less money the Denafrips Pontus II is also a great DAC.  And finally for roughly 750$ the Denafrips Ares II would be my last choice. 

@lalitk 

Thank you, appreciate it!

@duketbrd88 

Keep an eye on this thread about DAC recommendation! 
 

@jjss49 

Why would I take, supposedly the best connection, a balanced xlr connection & switch it to a rca connection? Just to compare the two at a more consistent voltage output? I am using kimber hero xlr cables, not that it matters. I thought anytime you can use xlr connection, you should?

 I don’t like everything loud, in fact the opposite. Just once in awhile. I usually listen at more lower normal casual listening levels. The ps audio just has better midrange, treble and bass at lower levels. In fact to compare at lower volumes, I had to use the comp button on the e380 and dac 60 to boost the bass/ loudness at lower volumes and then shut it off at higher volumes. That is the closest I could get them to match.

maybe I indeed just got a faulty dac 60 card. I mean it is possible. IDK…, but something is just not correct with this dac 60 card and I would except something a lot better than that from accuphase. I’m starting to think that there is something wrong with the card.

 I think the biggest difference now is the bass at any volume level and the rel sub felt non existent with the dac 60 at lower levels.   Just odd….

Several DACs available in different price ranges

@thyname 

I will, thanks. Which LUMIN?

Plenty of good DACs out there in your price range. For the sake of simplicity, as it sounds you are just getting started with digital & streaming, I recommend you buy a DAC with a streamer built in. Like LUMIN, or Cary DMS series, just an example 

@jjss49 

thanks, I don’t mind adjusting the volume. I just really didn’t see that big of difference for the money to justify it. Something just sounded off to me. I appreciate everyone’s input, trust me. This is all new to me and a learning curve. When I went from my Classé gear to the Accuphase, I was pleasantly surprised. I thought it would be that way also with the dac.

I haven’t messed with this stuff for 18 years. The e380 definitely woke up my B&W 804S speakers for sure and I am very happy with that.

I’m just never thought there was that much of a difference between dacs. Like I said, a big learning curve for me. I am glad there is a great group of guys here to help out.

@duketbrd88

I don’t know anything about pot settings or anything that technical. All I know is the ps audio is much different in sound. Way better bass, midrange and treble. Way louder, more forward like a 800 horsepower car vs a 300 horsepower car. That’s like the best I can describe it.

Would you have any ideas for a good dac around $1500 that would compare to the dac 60 card and be good with a bluesound node streamer, when I get one?

Keeping in mind your issue with DAC60 and Node consideration, I recommend looking at external DAC like Denafrips Pontus II. I think you will be much happier with a DAC like Pontus in the long run.

1) if you are planning to use a bluesound node’s digital out to feed a denafrips dac (such as a pontus), you should first read about the well known issues those dacs have properly receiving the bitstream feed from the nodes...

2) it seems from your repeated responses here, that you really seem to like ’loud’, can’t or won’t adjust down the abnormally high output voltage from the old psa d-link dac (2.75v rca, 5.5v xlr) to compare apples to apples... well, leaving aside the Bluesound Node compatibility issue mentioned above, i would predict you will think all the denafrips dacs are sickly and weak and uninvolving too (all denafrips dacs have output fixed at 2v @ rca, 4v at xlr) -- so your d-link is almost 30% louder!

so my advice is be careful what you wish for! 😂 -- you like ’loud’, you already have ’loud’, so stick to it, enjoy the music - few modern, 'better' dacs have the abnormally high fixed output voltage ps audio built into your d-link

@celestial__sound 

I don’t know anything about pot settings or anything that technical. All I know is the ps audio is much different in sound. Way better bass, midrange and treble. Way louder, more forward like a 800 horsepower car vs a 300 horsepower car. That’s like the best I can describe it.

Would you have any ideas for a good dac around $1500 that would compare to the dac 60 card and be good with a bluesound node streamer, when I get one? 
 

I can get a dac 50 card from a guy (used) the previous version which is all they mention in my manual for $750. I would feel better spending that then $2,000 on the dac 60.

Just looking at options. I’m fine with the ps audio at the moment, to be honest.

@duketbrd88 

Thing with sources is that you need as much voltage is needed for your amp feeding your speakers in your room listening with your ears.
Regarding volume pot setting - you got it all wrong
I'm happiest when pot is near max.

Don't get fooled by the high voltage of the balanced outputs of the PS Audio DAC, more voltage leads to more Gain. That means that not only the music signal but the noise will be amplified as well. That's one of the reasons why accuphase choose to have lower voltage on their DAC and that's the reason why the DAC 60 sounds better your ears once you equalize the volume level. Don't worry if you turn the volume knob pass 12 oclock. The preamp of the accuphase is designed as signal attenuator which means you get more of the original signal as you go higher with the volume.

Lastly, this article will resolve many of your concerns 

https://www.diyaudio.com/archive/articles/160464-de-lite-amplifier-next-thread.html  

@lalitk 

what about the DENAFRIPS ARES II R2R DAC?

@duketbrd88

I think it would make a very nice pairing with E-380. There is another DAC that gets lots of high praises is MHDT Labs ORCHID, but I wouldn’t recommend it with E-380. Accuphase sound is already lean towards warm so you don’t want a tube source. With Accuphase, you need a DAC that is transparent and detailed. 

Agree, no shortage of choices of external DACs less than 2K. Another well regarded option is the Swiss made Merason Frerot DAC. 
Charles

@lalitk 

that is what I am thinking also. Is that a pretty nice dac? Seems like lots of people have it.

@duketbrd88 

Keeping in mind your issue with DAC60 and Node consideration, I recommend looking at external DAC like Denafrips Pontus II. I think you will be much happier with a DAC like Pontus in the long run. You have lot of options under $2K :-) 
 

So, another question for you guys. When I start streaming here soon, I will probably get the bluesound node. My dealer recommended that one. I will probably use the USB port on the dac. Should I keep the dac 60 for that purpose? I’m pretty sure the spec’s for that of the dac 60 are better.

 I am late to the game for streaming, but do pay for qobuz and use it through my iphone in the car.

@oldrooney 

Thanks and thanks for the info. I didn’t know that. I had the same Classé delta cp500 pre as and Classé ca2200 amp with this ps audio dac for 18 years. The upgrade to the e380 Accuphase was a pleasure surprise in sound quality and musical. So, I was excited. Then I started looking at dacs and there are so many it just got to be overwhelming, so I just bit the bullet and got the dac 60. Well, I was pretty disgusted as you read. 
 

It seems to be breaking in nicely, but the verdict is still out. Not sure it’s worth the money when mine is fine.

@duketbrd88 Man, I feel for ya. The voltage input/output levels seem to be an issue. I have a separate preamp that allows me to adjust input levels I reference to the ‘tuner’ which doesn’t exist in my system, but nevertheless, I can adjust the relative input levels appropriately. I was recently looking at some vintage McIntosh gear that had slide switches for different input voltage levels. I wondered what they were for( your question answered mine. (FYI: Different vintages of Mac gear has different voltage spans, check it out.) I hope that you can arrive at a a testing ‘jig’ that allows you to compare competing DACs on a level playing field.