Accuphase dac 60

@charles1dad 

Yeah, I’m sure there is a reason. It’s just crazy to me. First time experiencing something like this and at $2,000. 
 

curious what you meant by this “Wow! I hope the resolution is this simple. That’d be terrific news.”?

 I just read it in your above post.

Thanks for your help! Everyone, I appreciate it. Great when the audio community can help each other out. Not like some other forums or groups I belong to.

@rhg3 

sure, glad it’s fixed.

@westcoastaudiophile 

thanks, good to know. I wish I had the time, energy and money to try a bunch of dac’s, but I don’t.

just going to stick with the dac 60 when it gets back to me.

@martinl07d sounds great for what it is. I'm sure there are external dacs that sound just as good, but don't have the time or money to mess around with other ones. Congrats on the e4000, awesome integrated!

Thanks guys! Just hoping I get a good sonic improvement like I did when I traded my Classé delta pre pro towards the Accuphase e380. I have the older B&W 804S towers and this accuphase really made a big difference in sound, for the better. I had the Classé cp500 preamp and ca2200 amp and it was great, but decided I needed a change after 16yrs and took the plunge to accuphase. It sounds better on all levels. I was actually shocked, because Classé delta gear is great and all I’ve really know for a long time. Way more musical now.

I have a CD player and probably going to start streaming with qobuz and a bluesound node, so figured I mines well change the dac while I’m at it.

It is draining trying to read up on all these new dacs and to many to choose from. Just kind of figured I can’t go wrong with the dac 60 card. From the limited research I have found, everyone seems to say it is great. I listen to just about anything, so I guess I’m leaning towards the more warmer musical sound of things the older I get.

Well, thanks everyone. Should be here next week. just ordered it yesterday.

i'm still amazed every time I turn the accuphase on. 

Well, got the dac 60 installed and listened for a good 8 hrs on and off. I do not care for it at all. It sounds crystal clear and musical, but my trusty ps audio digital link iii dac sounds way better in my system hooked up with balanced xlr (kinmber hero xlr cables). Like at least a 10 db increase in volume, way better highs, midrange and bass.  With the ps audio sounds so much better, I honestly can't believe it.

I don't get it, honestly. Even switching back from the dac 60 to my ps audio, my Rel sub came back to life, the bass on my b&w 804S speakers, the midrange and treble, the whole soundstage was back. Like way better. I have never changed something in my system that made such a difference, it is unreal. The dac 60 is going back. I am pretty bummed actually. Maybe it is just my system, IDK...

So, how can a dac be that much of a drastic difference in sound and volume? I would love to know. Anyone could blind test this scenario and pick each one out any day of the week. I am still confused on this whole thing. No amount of burning in would change what i am hearing. It literally sounds like two different stereo systems with each one. I really wanted to like it, but the minute I started listening, I knew something was off and didn't sound right.

Maybe someone could explain why this is? IDK....

Jjss49, sounds exactly correct. I have to turn the accuphase up about 12db on the volume to sound about the same. There is also a comp button that boosts it closer to the output to very close to the ps audio dac.

it sounds good when cranked up louder, but just normal low listening levels, sounds totally different. The ps audio sounds full throughout the whole volume range, even pretty low listening levels. It’s just seems odd.

@duketbrd88

you need to adjust volume of the internal accuphase dac card to be the same as the external ps audio dlink dac -- that difference will entirely screw up any proper comparison of sound

assuming that dac card from accuphase is working properly, it simply has a lower output through the amplifier section than the d-link (or said differently, the d-link has higher fixed output voltage it is sending to the accuphase input) which is accounting for the volume discrepancy -- that same volume discrepancy is also making it sound like the sub is hardly working

think of the problem as a less powerful car having a much more sensitive gas pedal, its not more powerful, it just gives you most of what it has in the first inch of gas pedal travel - you just need to compensate for that to compare the sound properly

the fact that the accuphase volume knob needs to be set higher for the internal dac compared to the external one does NOT mean the louder one sounds better!
 

yes sir, I believe you are correct. Is that how drastic the volume will be with any external dac vs the accuphase dac 60? By sound match, you mean I have to adjust the volume of my e380 accuphase up until it matches the output of the ps audio to compare the two? It a good 12-15db on the volume up to have the dac 60 match. 

Yeah , all I can think of & don’t see that marked anywhere. Imagine me, not really ever messing with dacs except the ps audio I have had for about 18 years jumping to a $2,000 dac 60 card and noticing that. I am still a little shocked. 

I’ll try, but actually like 3/4 volume on the amp now to jam out a little bit. The ps audio just sounds full, tight bass, the midrange, treble and everything are better from low listening level to higher listening levels. The dac 60 sounds so dull and boring at normal lower listening levels. Trust me, I’m trying to love it for $2,000, I really am. I never expected what I am hearing.

I meant to say the accuphase e380 integrated amp itself is a treat to listen to and I enjoy it very much. 

@jjss49 

everything is the same. The sources are the same. I can get them both pretty close in sound, well volume wise turning the accuphase up, like 12db higher on the volume. It’s more of a difference for me from low to moderate listening levels, is where there is the biggest difference. Just has no body or oomph at lower normal levels.

I honestly don’t think there is anything wrong with the integrated or the dac 60 card. It installed like butter and everything works fine. Could not get any easier installing it. I looked everything over, didn’t touch anything with my bare hands and went in without a hitch. 

I do believe it is at least just a gain issue between the two dacs. The Dac 60 just sounds kind of boring and lifeless at lower listening levels, especially the bass in the B&W 804S drivers and the rel T7x sub. That is the biggest difference the more I listen and switch back and forth between the two dacs. Dac 60 seems lifeless in the bass department. The only way to match that is to push the comp button on the front, which gives it that boost in bass or as some described it as a old fashioned loudness button.

when a track is playing and it’s loud enough, it sounds good, maybe even a little smoother and a bit more musical then the ps audio, but not $2,000 better at all. 
 

nothing changed throughout the process except the dac 60 card and switching the optical and coaxial cables from one to the other. The ps audio is still in its spot and plugged in. 

Thanks everyone for your help, I am trying real hard to like this new dac, but this should be a bit more exciting like when I traded my classe cp500 pre and Classé ca2200 amp towards the Accuphase.

That was a nice noticeable difference in sound for the better. My ps audio dac was also in that pre/pro combo and the same speakers and cables. The Accuphase e380 rated @ 120 watts per channel sound better than the Classé delta series, e we which I was shocked. 

Any way. Just thought I would give an update on the dacs and it is what it is. Totally different sounding and the gain difference. It’s not often I get to upgrade or mess around with this stuff. To me 18 years to say, maybe I should switch out that Classé gear and try something else.

@charles1dad 

Thanks, still can’t believe the volume difference between the two dacs . I have personally never ran into something like that.

I will admit, it is sounding better the longer it runs. Just have to turn the volume up more. It is crystal clear. Everything is running through my equitech son of q jr balanced power supply. Dead quiet background. Not the slightest bit of hiss coming from the speakers. The ps audio seems to be better in the midrange and bass and the dac 60 is better in the highs. The verdict is still out. Still playing around. I do have a comp/loudness button I can turn on at lower volume for better bass or tone controls. Right now I’m just trying it with everything deactivated on the integrated just like I had the ps audio.

Trying to find the Dac 60 card info, but the ps audio xlr output is 5.5 volts and rca is 2.75 volts according to Crutchfield. I’m using xlr into the amp.

I can’t find anything on the accuphase output at the moment.

So basically, what would that translate in to volume, db level? Like around 10-15db higher on the volume for the dac 60 to equal the ps audio volume level?

thanks

What I found on the accuphase e380 integrated 

Yeah, I know. I couldn’t find it. Not in the manual’s I have.

Continuous Average
8-ohm load
Output Power
(both channels driven)
(20 - 20.000 Hz)
4-ohm load
THD
(both channels driven)
4 to 16 ohm load
(20 - 20.000 Hz)
120 W
180 W
0.05%
Intermodulation Distortion
0.01%
HIGH LEVEL INPUT
20 - 20,000Hz (+0. -0.5 dB)
Frequency
Response
20 - 20,000Hz (+0, -0.2 dB)
MAIN IN
At 1 watt output: 3 - 150.000 Hz (+0. -3.0 dB)
Damping Factor
500 (with 8-ohm load, 50 Hz)
Input sensitivity
Input
Input
For rated output For 1 W output (ElA) Impedance
Input Sensitivity,
HIGH LEVEL INPUT
155 mV
14.2 mV
20 kilohms
Input Impedance
BALANCED INPUT
155 mV
14.2 mV
40 kilohms
MAIN IN
1.23 V
113 mV
20 kilohms
1.23 V*
Output Voltage
Output Impedance
Gain
PRE OUTPUT
PRE OUTPUT
50 ohms
HIGH LEVEL INPUT -› PRE OUTPUT
MAIN IN -› OUTPUT
18 dB
28 dB

@charles1dad 

I don’t know if the above manual helps. On the last page are some voltage figures on my e380 integrated.

@rockrider 

yes, two different sources for optical and coaxial. The Rel T7x is connected with there speakon high level connection. Great sub by the way, I need to add another one.

@charles1dad 

I am guessing it is on the preamp. I can’t find anything on it and they are just inputs. How do most higher end companies do it, like luxman, rotel michi, Anthem, Parasound or anyone that has a built in dac on their preamp? I don’t know.

dac 60 is in the second slot.

slot #2

@charles1dad 

that is what my take is on it also

@lalitk 

in the manual, it says either slot and the dealer said he usually puts it in slot #2, but i will double check.

right now I have a trusty 18 year old denon 1910 cd/ DVD player as my CD player with the coax and an optical cable from my Sony oled playing hi res music from YouTube music videos which actually sounds excellent and the reason I have been putting off streaming for the time being.

 I do want to pick up a audiolab 6000cdt transport this week for cd’s.

 I have been running this setup for years with the ps audio dac, the old Classé stuff and now the accuphase integrated and all of it sounds awesome and crystal clear.

so, those are my main sources for now. I know not ideal for everyone, but works for me. The only new variable added was the dac 60.

@ronboco 

the dealer has been great to deal with and said I can return it. I hooked the ps audio back up this morning and the difference is amazing. That gain or volume difference feels like adding a separate amp. I’m still shocked, because this is not the outcome I expected at all.

You can put the dac card or phono card in either slot, just have to select option 1or2 on the front depending on what slot you are in.

@thyname

it is. Clearly marked which one to select. There is just a huge gain/volume difference between the outboard dac and the accuphase.

the card is inserted properly. It does sound good and getting better, but not worth it compared to what I have. Jmho…

@jjss49 

no I did not. It clearly states in the manual either slot, does not matter. Then you select option 1or 2 on the front depending on the slot. Talked to a couple dealers also, besides my dealer and they also said it doesn’t matter.

It is now in the first slot and option 1 selected. No difference than slot 2. Just have to turn the volume up more to match what I’m used to with the ps audio dac.

 I do notice that the dac 60 is a clearer sound and less distortion, it seems. 

@lalitk 

I see, makes sense now. It’s not a bad dac at all. Sound is better the longer it runs and actually more bass now. Just the volume difference between the two something I’m not used to. If I didn’t have the ps audio here to compare it to, I would probably think totally different. The actual clarity and quiet background is great. Actually when I crank the volume with the ps audio I can start to here a little distortion and have to back it off. With the dac 60, it’s crystal clear as loud and safe as far as I feel comfortable taking it.

First time with me personally ever noticing a change with burn in, which I was never a believer in. Now I am. 

Thanks everyone, sure is a learning experience the higher up you go in the craziness. 

So, another question for you guys. When I start streaming here soon, I will probably get the bluesound node. My dealer recommended that one. I will probably use the USB port on the dac. Should I keep the dac 60 for that purpose? I’m pretty sure the spec’s for that of the dac 60 are better.

 I am late to the game for streaming, but do pay for qobuz and use it through my iphone in the car.

@oldrooney 

Thanks and thanks for the info. I didn’t know that. I had the same Classé delta cp500 pre as and Classé ca2200 amp with this ps audio dac for 18 years. The upgrade to the e380 Accuphase was a pleasure surprise in sound quality and musical. So, I was excited. Then I started looking at dacs and there are so many it just got to be overwhelming, so I just bit the bullet and got the dac 60. Well, I was pretty disgusted as you read. 
 

It seems to be breaking in nicely, but the verdict is still out. Not sure it’s worth the money when mine is fine.

@lalitk 

that is what I am thinking also. Is that a pretty nice dac? Seems like lots of people have it.

@lalitk 

what about the DENAFRIPS ARES II R2R DAC?

@celestial__sound 

I don’t know anything about pot settings or anything that technical. All I know is the ps audio is much different in sound. Way better bass, midrange and treble. Way louder, more forward like a 800 horsepower car vs a 300 horsepower car. That’s like the best I can describe it.

Would you have any ideas for a good dac around $1500 that would compare to the dac 60 card and be good with a bluesound node streamer, when I get one? 
 

I can get a dac 50 card from a guy (used) the previous version which is all they mention in my manual for $750. I would feel better spending that then $2,000 on the dac 60.

Just looking at options. I’m fine with the ps audio at the moment, to be honest.

@jjss49 

thanks, I don’t mind adjusting the volume. I just really didn’t see that big of difference for the money to justify it. Something just sounded off to me. I appreciate everyone’s input, trust me. This is all new to me and a learning curve. When I went from my Classé gear to the Accuphase, I was pleasantly surprised. I thought it would be that way also with the dac.

I haven’t messed with this stuff for 18 years. The e380 definitely woke up my B&W 804S speakers for sure and I am very happy with that.

I’m just never thought there was that much of a difference between dacs. Like I said, a big learning curve for me. I am glad there is a great group of guys here to help out.

@thyname 

I will, thanks. Which LUMIN?

@lalitk 

Thank you, appreciate it!

@jjss49 

Why would I take, supposedly the best connection, a balanced xlr connection & switch it to a rca connection? Just to compare the two at a more consistent voltage output? I am using kimber hero xlr cables, not that it matters. I thought anytime you can use xlr connection, you should?

 I don’t like everything loud, in fact the opposite. Just once in awhile. I usually listen at more lower normal casual listening levels. The ps audio just has better midrange, treble and bass at lower levels. In fact to compare at lower volumes, I had to use the comp button on the e380 and dac 60 to boost the bass/ loudness at lower volumes and then shut it off at higher volumes. That is the closest I could get them to match.

maybe I indeed just got a faulty dac 60 card. I mean it is possible. IDK…, but something is just not correct with this dac 60 card and I would except something a lot better than that from accuphase. I’m starting to think that there is something wrong with the card.

 I think the biggest difference now is the bass at any volume level and the rel sub felt non existent with the dac 60 at lower levels.   Just odd….

@celestial__sound 

thanks, I will look into my options that you guys suggested. Appreciate the help.👍

I can trade in my old pas audio dac for this. Last one in black for $1,149. That is the trade in program with my $750 off. I wouldn’t use the preamp section, but it is there if I ever need it. 

What do you guys think of that.

@jjss49 

Thanks, I tried the db meter app on my phone to compare. There is a difference. I sent the dac back to the dealer. Don’t think I want to try another one. I kind of like the fact there are so many choices and can sell or trade up, not so easy with the accuphase dac. Not much info out there on them at all and pretty hard to sell, it seems like.

What is your opinion on the link to the ps audio stellar gain dac? I really just use the xlr because I had two sets of the kimber hero in my system for so long. I have nothing against the rca hookup at all.

anyway, I can upgrade to the newer one in the link and get full price for what I paid a long time ago. Obviously I wouldn’t use the preamp section, but it is there if I need it someday.