Accuphase dac 60

@lalitk

The DAC60 is a dedicated digital input board that simply decodes incoming digital signal and inputs directly into preamplifier analog section

That is why I am seeking affirmation. If it doesn’t have an output voltage (Of its own) and the only output voltage is via the preamplifier section, then that output is only 1.23V. That’s quite low voltage for a DAC. This would explain the current dilemma.

dac 60 is in the second slot.

slot #2

@charles1dad 

that is what my take is on it also

Yes, if in fact the situation is DAC 60 1.23v versus P.S.Audio 5.5V, that’d literally explain everything. The voltage output differential is huge. Surely Accuphase can answer the question regarding output voltage.

Charles

@duketbrd88

The DAC60 option board should be installed in slot #1. The slot #2 is for optional phono board. Please make the swap and let us know if you hear any difference. Also what is your source and how it is connected to DAC60. 

“The DAC60 option board should be installed in slot #1. The slot #2 is for optional phono board”

Wow! I hope the resolution is this simple. That’d be terrific news.

Charles

Great help from everyone here but your dealer should know about any issues that may arise. Hope it works out well! 

@lalitk 

in the manual, it says either slot and the dealer said he usually puts it in slot #2, but i will double check.

right now I have a trusty 18 year old denon 1910 cd/ DVD player as my CD player with the coax and an optical cable from my Sony oled playing hi res music from YouTube music videos which actually sounds excellent and the reason I have been putting off streaming for the time being.

 I do want to pick up a audiolab 6000cdt transport this week for cd’s.

 I have been running this setup for years with the ps audio dac, the old Classé stuff and now the accuphase integrated and all of it sounds awesome and crystal clear.

so, those are my main sources for now. I know not ideal for everyone, but works for me. The only new variable added was the dac 60.

@ronboco 

the dealer has been great to deal with and said I can return it. I hooked the ps audio back up this morning and the difference is amazing. That gain or volume difference feels like adding a separate amp. I’m still shocked, because this is not the outcome I expected at all.

@duketbrd88 

did you try it in the other slot? 

👍

@jjss49 

no I did not. It clearly states in the manual either slot, does not matter. Then you select option 1or 2 on the front depending on the slot. Talked to a couple dealers also, besides my dealer and they also said it doesn’t matter.

You can put the dac card or phono card in either slot, just have to select option 1or2 on the front depending on what slot you are in.

Maybe swap the selection in the front of the unit? Sometimes it is not clear which one is referred to as "1" or "2". Just a thought.

If this does not work, maybe you swap the DAC module into the remaining slot, and try that.

Also, as stupid as this sounds, I would make sure you have properly inserted / connected the module into its slot.

As a last resort, have you tried to communicate with Accuphase directly?

Best of luck.

@thyname

it is. Clearly marked which one to select. There is just a huge gain/volume difference between the outboard dac and the accuphase.

the card is inserted properly. It does sound good and getting better, but not worth it compared to what I have. Jmho…

It is now in the first slot and option 1 selected. No difference than slot 2. Just have to turn the volume up more to match what I’m used to with the ps audio dac.

 I do notice that the dac 60 is a clearer sound and less distortion, it seems. 

@duketbrd88

It seems for whatever reason Accuphase has implemented the  DAC 60 card to operate with a low voltage output. I have to give them benefit of the doubt and assume it’s for a good reason. I can see your point for certain. You have to trust what you hear and choose what sounds better and makes you happier.

Charles

@charles1dad 

Yeah, I’m sure there is a reason. It’s just crazy to me. First time experiencing something like this and at $2,000. 
 

curious what you meant by this “Wow! I hope the resolution is this simple. That’d be terrific news.”?

 I just read it in your above post.

Thanks for your help! Everyone, I appreciate it. Great when the audio community can help each other out. Not like some other forums or groups I belong to.

It seems for whatever reason Accuphase has implemented the DAC 60 card to operate with a low voltage output. I have to give them benefit of the doubt and assume it’s for a good reason. 

I don't know, but to me it sounds like something isn't working correctly.  One of the Accuphase dealers should comment if your experience is "normal" or if something is broken.  Someone must own your amp with the DAC card and hopefully will chime in.

I hope you sort all this out.  Are all the DAC 60 cards the same regardless of what countries markets they are built for?

@duketbrd88

When @lalitk said the slot chosen was the issue I thought “wow” what a simple fix (Resolution to the prob). Alas it wasn’t the culprit afterall. There’s still a possibility that something might be faulty. If indeed it is just a case of a very low voltage output, you would think at least a few others would have voiced similar concerns. Audio is both fascinating and at times frustrating.

Charles

When @lalitk said the slot chosen was the issue I thought “wow” what a simple fix (Resolution to the prob).

I agree, it made a lot of sense.

@lalitk 

I see, makes sense now. It’s not a bad dac at all. Sound is better the longer it runs and actually more bass now. Just the volume difference between the two something I’m not used to. If I didn’t have the ps audio here to compare it to, I would probably think totally different. The actual clarity and quiet background is great. Actually when I crank the volume with the ps audio I can start to here a little distortion and have to back it off. With the dac 60, it’s crystal clear as loud and safe as far as I feel comfortable taking it.

First time with me personally ever noticing a change with burn in, which I was never a believer in. Now I am. 

@duke89061 First time with me personally ever noticing a change with burn in, which I was never a believer in. Now I am.

Ha! This has been a learning experience. Burn-in for many components is most definitely real phenomenon. I’m not surprised that the Accuphase DAC 60 is steady improving its sound quality (And will continue further). The substantial difference in voltage output was/is off putting as a new experience. I’m not surprised that the DAC is beginning to emerge as more clear, pure and resolved.

Charles

@duketbrd88 

The burn-in process is very real and it applies to both *new* cables and electronics. There is a reason you love E-380 and the DAC60 is no exception, its designed to work seamlessly and if I may say so, beautifully with E-380. Be patient until it’s fully broken-in before you make any decision. I have AD50 phono module ($1K) and it has bested outboard phono costing as much as $4K in my system. 

Thanks everyone, sure is a learning experience the higher up you go in the craziness. 

@duketbrd88 Man, I feel for ya. The voltage input/output levels seem to be an issue. I have a separate preamp that allows me to adjust input levels I reference to the ‘tuner’ which doesn’t exist in my system, but nevertheless, I can adjust the relative input levels appropriately. I was recently looking at some vintage McIntosh gear that had slide switches for different input voltage levels. I wondered what they were for( your question answered mine. (FYI: Different vintages of Mac gear has different voltage spans, check it out.) I hope that you can arrive at a a testing ‘jig’ that allows you to compare competing DACs on a level playing field. 

@oldrooney 

Thanks and thanks for the info. I didn’t know that. I had the same Classé delta cp500 pre as and Classé ca2200 amp with this ps audio dac for 18 years. The upgrade to the e380 Accuphase was a pleasure surprise in sound quality and musical. So, I was excited. Then I started looking at dacs and there are so many it just got to be overwhelming, so I just bit the bullet and got the dac 60. Well, I was pretty disgusted as you read. 
 

It seems to be breaking in nicely, but the verdict is still out. Not sure it’s worth the money when mine is fine.

So, another question for you guys. When I start streaming here soon, I will probably get the bluesound node. My dealer recommended that one. I will probably use the USB port on the dac. Should I keep the dac 60 for that purpose? I’m pretty sure the spec’s for that of the dac 60 are better.

 I am late to the game for streaming, but do pay for qobuz and use it through my iphone in the car.

@duketbrd88 

Keeping in mind your issue with DAC60 and Node consideration, I recommend looking at external DAC like Denafrips Pontus II. I think you will be much happier with a DAC like Pontus in the long run. You have lot of options under $2K :-) 
 

@lalitk 

that is what I am thinking also. Is that a pretty nice dac? Seems like lots of people have it.

Agree, no shortage of choices of external DACs less than 2K. Another well regarded option is the Swiss made Merason Frerot DAC. 
Charles

@duketbrd88

I think it would make a very nice pairing with E-380. There is another DAC that gets lots of high praises is MHDT Labs ORCHID, but I wouldn’t recommend it with E-380. Accuphase sound is already lean towards warm so you don’t want a tube source. With Accuphase, you need a DAC that is transparent and detailed. 

@lalitk 

what about the DENAFRIPS ARES II R2R DAC?

@duketbrd88 

Thing with sources is that you need as much voltage is needed for your amp feeding your speakers in your room listening with your ears.
Regarding volume pot setting - you got it all wrong
I'm happiest when pot is near max.

Don't get fooled by the high voltage of the balanced outputs of the PS Audio DAC, more voltage leads to more Gain. That means that not only the music signal but the noise will be amplified as well. That's one of the reasons why accuphase choose to have lower voltage on their DAC and that's the reason why the DAC 60 sounds better your ears once you equalize the volume level. Don't worry if you turn the volume knob pass 12 oclock. The preamp of the accuphase is designed as signal attenuator which means you get more of the original signal as you go higher with the volume.

Lastly, this article will resolve many of your concerns 

https://www.diyaudio.com/archive/articles/160464-de-lite-amplifier-next-thread.html  

@celestial__sound 

I don’t know anything about pot settings or anything that technical. All I know is the ps audio is much different in sound. Way better bass, midrange and treble. Way louder, more forward like a 800 horsepower car vs a 300 horsepower car. That’s like the best I can describe it.

Would you have any ideas for a good dac around $1500 that would compare to the dac 60 card and be good with a bluesound node streamer, when I get one? 
 

I can get a dac 50 card from a guy (used) the previous version which is all they mention in my manual for $750. I would feel better spending that then $2,000 on the dac 60.

Just looking at options. I’m fine with the ps audio at the moment, to be honest.

@duketbrd88

I don’t know anything about pot settings or anything that technical. All I know is the ps audio is much different in sound. Way better bass, midrange and treble. Way louder, more forward like a 800 horsepower car vs a 300 horsepower car. That’s like the best I can describe it.

Would you have any ideas for a good dac around $1500 that would compare to the dac 60 card and be good with a bluesound node streamer, when I get one?

Keeping in mind your issue with DAC60 and Node consideration, I recommend looking at external DAC like Denafrips Pontus II. I think you will be much happier with a DAC like Pontus in the long run.

1) if you are planning to use a bluesound node’s digital out to feed a denafrips dac (such as a pontus), you should first read about the well known issues those dacs have properly receiving the bitstream feed from the nodes...

2) it seems from your repeated responses here, that you really seem to like ’loud’, can’t or won’t adjust down the abnormally high output voltage from the old psa d-link dac (2.75v rca, 5.5v xlr) to compare apples to apples... well, leaving aside the Bluesound Node compatibility issue mentioned above, i would predict you will think all the denafrips dacs are sickly and weak and uninvolving too (all denafrips dacs have output fixed at 2v @ rca, 4v at xlr) -- so your d-link is almost 30% louder!

so my advice is be careful what you wish for! 😂 -- you like ’loud’, you already have ’loud’, so stick to it, enjoy the music - few modern, 'better' dacs have the abnormally high fixed output voltage ps audio built into your d-link

@jjss49 

thanks, I don’t mind adjusting the volume. I just really didn’t see that big of difference for the money to justify it. Something just sounded off to me. I appreciate everyone’s input, trust me. This is all new to me and a learning curve. When I went from my Classé gear to the Accuphase, I was pleasantly surprised. I thought it would be that way also with the dac.

I haven’t messed with this stuff for 18 years. The e380 definitely woke up my B&W 804S speakers for sure and I am very happy with that.

I’m just never thought there was that much of a difference between dacs. Like I said, a big learning curve for me. I am glad there is a great group of guys here to help out.

Plenty of good DACs out there in your price range. For the sake of simplicity, as it sounds you are just getting started with digital & streaming, I recommend you buy a DAC with a streamer built in. Like LUMIN, or Cary DMS series, just an example 

@thyname 

I will, thanks. Which LUMIN?

Several DACs available in different price ranges

@jjss49 

Why would I take, supposedly the best connection, a balanced xlr connection & switch it to a rca connection? Just to compare the two at a more consistent voltage output? I am using kimber hero xlr cables, not that it matters. I thought anytime you can use xlr connection, you should?

 I don’t like everything loud, in fact the opposite. Just once in awhile. I usually listen at more lower normal casual listening levels. The ps audio just has better midrange, treble and bass at lower levels. In fact to compare at lower volumes, I had to use the comp button on the e380 and dac 60 to boost the bass/ loudness at lower volumes and then shut it off at higher volumes. That is the closest I could get them to match.

maybe I indeed just got a faulty dac 60 card. I mean it is possible. IDK…, but something is just not correct with this dac 60 card and I would except something a lot better than that from accuphase. I’m starting to think that there is something wrong with the card.

 I think the biggest difference now is the bass at any volume level and the rel sub felt non existent with the dac 60 at lower levels.   Just odd….

@duketbrd88 

Keep an eye on this thread about DAC recommendation! 
 

@lalitk 

Thank you, appreciate it!

Way better bass, midrange and treble.

That's can't be true, its only illusion cause  PS DAC plays way more louder at the same volume level. As I said earlier, if you match the volume level I'm sure Accu. DAC 60 will wipe the floor with PS audio DAC.  

Would you have any ideas for a good dac around $1500 that would compare to the dac 60 card and be good with a bluesound node streamer, when I get one? 

If you can starch your budget I would look at the Holo Audio Spring DAC. It's R2R DAC measures very well and sounds amazing. For a bit less money the Denafrips Pontus II is also a great DAC.  And finally for roughly 750$ the Denafrips Ares II would be my last choice. 

I have had a similar experience to you and can make an informed recommendation for a potentially good DAC to try. I have a Luxman L-550axii amplifier which is quite warm, smooth and refined like your Accuphase. I also use a Bluesound NODE as source, just like you are planning. I found a good DAC with synergy to be the Chord Qutest which cost me about £800 in the UK. It is very good at excavating detail which balances out the smoothness of the amp. I find USB to be to clinical for my taste and prefer to feed it with an optical cable because that sounds more organic to my ears and has the benefit of preventing any electrical noise from entering the DAC. It doesn't have balanced connectors though, only single ended. The Qutest has three gain settings to choose from; 1v, 2v and 3v, the higher the voltage the fuller and more impactful it sounds, I use it on 3v. It's a bit quirky to use but full of character and they seem to hold their value.

PS - I found this website because I'm thinking about the E-380 as a potential upgrade so I have a bit of an ulterior motive in recommending the DAC I use. But I think it would be an option worth considering alongside the R2R DACs others are suggesting because I think those might be too smooth with that amp, too much of a good thing.

@celestial__sound 

thanks, I will look into my options that you guys suggested. Appreciate the help.👍

I can trade in my old pas audio dac for this. Last one in black for $1,149. That is the trade in program with my $750 off. I wouldn’t use the preamp section, but it is there if I ever need it. 

What do you guys think of that.

@duketbrd88

to answer your earlier question

xlr is theoretically the better connection, but for high end home audio 95+% of the time single ended (rca) connections work just fine with zero sonic penalty in a properly set up system ... especially using short (less than 3 meter) interconnect runs

then there is the matter of dac designers and how/what they optimize in their output stages.... two prominent, well respected designers of dacs... mojo audio (ben zwickel) and msb (jonathan gullman), both clearly state that they feel their dacs sound better, more natural, more harmonious, through their single ended outputs... even though they offer xlr’s for the convenience of their customers (ben charges extra for xlr as it involves more circuitry)

regarding lack of perceived bass at low volumes, you should search ’fletcher munson effect’, there was a recent thread here discussing that

always, always, compare two sources at the SAME volume when trying to hear sonic differences... your cell phone has easily downloadable ’db-meter’ apps, go to app store... play test tone, note volume settings to make two sources equal, then adjust before evaluating...

...and if you bought the accuphase dac card from a dealer, i would certainly push them to exchange a fresh one, so you can be sure yours in hand is not problematic

@jjss49 

Thanks, I tried the db meter app on my phone to compare. There is a difference. I sent the dac back to the dealer. Don’t think I want to try another one. I kind of like the fact there are so many choices and can sell or trade up, not so easy with the accuphase dac. Not much info out there on them at all and pretty hard to sell, it seems like.

What is your opinion on the link to the ps audio stellar gain dac? I really just use the xlr because I had two sets of the kimber hero in my system for so long. I have nothing against the rca hookup at all.

anyway, I can upgrade to the newer one in the link and get full price for what I paid a long time ago. Obviously I wouldn’t use the preamp section, but it is there if I need it someday.