Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Matt, we really need to work out a time for me to come over for a weekend or something with my Steve Nugent built Mac Mini/Hynes supply.  I am wondering if it's starting to lose it's superiority now that newer servers are coming out.  Also you need to try and get the Music Vault in there if you can.  

I might chime in, I use the Rednet 3 with a (modded) internal linear power supply. Mac Mini with Uptone Audio 12V DC board mod, and send data via 1000 BaseT Ethernet to the Rednet. Then AES or SPDIF to my DAC. Beats th epants of any USB chain I have used before inc the Offramp 5 and M2Tech EVO full stack inc Linear supplies, and Berkley Alpha USB convertor. Rednet cost me 1K USD inc the linear supply.
So one box between the PC and DAC.

Very smooth and massive soundstage, huge detail and layering. It makes my previous chains sound flat and clinical TBH. I would say try it if you can't afford a full on pre-built server solution, and don't need above 192K limit of AES/SPDIF. I don't upsample anyway, so does not matter in my case.

Matt, just curious what did you not like about the Bricasti?

Ok. I just typed a three page review on the DA2, ODSX and Light Harmonic. It took me an hour and a half. And I hit submit and it went bye bye. 

It was well crafted and I’m so sad it’s gone.

Very abbreviated version without any descriptions (I’m so sorry, but I can’t do it again):

newly upgraded ODSX - awesome but don’t like the Ethernet input. Better then the ODSE and worth every penny of the $6k upgrade. It’s the best DAC available for under $25k

DA2 - accurate, meticulous, expansice, has life but no soul. It’s a reviewers dream DAC . If I were to build a system on the DA2 starting with the DA2 (like DCS) then I could build a world class system. But it’s been difficult to get the most out of it by inserting it into my particular existing system. It needs tubes or warmer solid state to make it shine, IMHO. With that, it could be world class.

Davinci Light Harmonic - it is the best DAC I have ever heard by a long shot. I heard music within the music. Dances of harmonics in strings and vocals that I never ever knew could exist. Accuracy without sterility, complexity and layers that were exposed for the first time ever. Just wow! A massive trade (including the DA2) was struck plus a wad of cash and this unit will be heading off for a full upgrade to LH2 status and then coming back for permanent residence.

So, I can’t believe I’m saying this, my ODSX is up for sale. If you are interested in the best DAC for under $25k then message me. It won’t be available until the LH2 is ready for delivery. But a deal can be struck now if interested.

I also still have a Chord DAVE coming in. Now it’s more for curiosity and to report to you. I can’t imagine it would outperform the LH. It might be better then the ODSX, maybe. But the ODSX tonal similarity to the LH was uncanny. Like the ODSX was the $14k model in Davinci’s line; sounds like it came from the same DNA. It’s THAT good!

I will post a follow up shoutout to Dave, the Audio Doctor. He gave me a ton of his time and deserves serious recognition.

Jwm- apologies but it was a while ago. If you go back in the thread you will find my impressions. It’s never about not liking. It’s about liking something else more. I have heard the Bricasti sound great with other Bridasti gear at shows. So I know it can sound awesome. But I don’t think it matched up with what I was comparing it with. It wasn't a matter of "didn’t like". It was a matter of the other stuff being better in my system to my ears.

But go back and find rhe comments and im sure I was more descriptive.

I told you the DaVinci was special. The best I’ve ever heard, period. Still curious to compare it to the Gryphon Kalliope and the Audio Note DAC 4 or 5.

Matt, I was so happy the other night when you shared your LH thoughts.  Very very cool.  I NEED to get over to hear that DAC.  Of all the expensive ones, I haven't heard the LH and need to.

Matt Nope, I checked the old comments and you said you liked it for one day and then it disappeared off the radar. You never said anything else about it. You must have not been that impressed.

Jwm - 
1) apologies. I'll check my notes and post for you. I think I have them somewhere. 
2) wow, I'm impressed you checked though all those pages! I'm honored. 

I do remember that it was not well suited to my system. But the specifics of why escape me. It was the current iteration at the time. As I said, please don't take my opinion as gospel. I am one person with one opinion. I try to explain why I like or don't like something so you can use that. Remember that it's not ever really a review as much as a comparison. And until the DAC2X, which I am certain would be bested by the ODSX, and now the Light Harmonic, i have always preferred my ODSE (now ODSX). 

Haven’t really followed this massive thread but I can’t imagine not liking the Bricasti if that’s the case. Simply can’t imagine. It's a buy and forget piece and used direct it's breathtaking. 

4425 - you can’t jump in on this thread and make a statement like that. As I just said, this thread is not about reviewing DAC’s. It’s about PICKING the best DAC. I have not evaluated a DAC I disliked. In fact, every DAC I have owned or auditioned is worth keeping and building a system around. I’m looking for the best darn DAC (started out as red book since that was and still is the bulk of my file type) I can find, at any price. I have excluded tubes DAC’s because of my personality and the tube swapping rabbit hole that would cause me never ending obsessive tube rolling, countless dollars and sleepless nights. I’m not saying that the best DAC in the world is solid state, but it is for me. I have heard the Golden Gate and it’s truly awesome, but simply not for me; like horn speakers (which I also love but just don’t have the space for), spicy Indian food and smoking Hookah; not for me......

There are certain DAC’s that have fan clubs..... Bricasti amongst them. Ayre, Lampizator, DAVE and DCS all have their dedicated groups of devotees also, who will defend their brand to the end. Good’on’ya!!! They all can make music and do it right. My goal was to find the one that made my system, in my room, with my ears sound the best. So anything I say about a DAC is in comparison to another and which I prefer. If it made it into my room, it’s a damn good DAC! I love Ferrari and Lamborghini, but I prefer Ferrari. That doesn’t mean i don’t like the Lambo.....

That all said, I found my notes and the highlights about the Bricasti were that the ODSE (my giant killer) offered a more complex, layered presentation of the music. In comparison, the Bricasti lacked a sense of "live" that the ODSE gave in spades. I also felt like the Bricasti had a flatter depth of stage in comparison, but that it’s spacial definition allowed individual events to happen seamlessly within their space. The ODSE did that equally well, and in the end it stayed and the Bricasti went back for someone else to enjoy.

A comment about dealers in general and one in particular (Dave, The Audio Doctor)......

Buying used is great. It saves money and allows us to bring a piece in knowing that we can turn it over without losing our shirts in the process if/when we decide to upgrade or go in a different direction. We all want to get as much as we can for our money, but what we need sometimes is more then just product.

There are times, many times, where an audition is mandatory and potentially even a home audition. And an educated, experienced ear can help your system grow beyond what you thought it’s boundaries were....

Dave, The Audio Doctor, had visited a wealthy client on Friday/Saturday and had brought the larger part of his Digital front end and all necessary cables, conditioners, tweaks, etc with him. I suggested he stop at my house on a Sunday before he put everything back together so we could play and he welcomingly obliged (and got to sell a Davinci Light Harmonic 2 to me as a reward! Although the reward was truly mine!!!).

I told Dave to leave all his other "stuff" in the car and just bring in the DAC and music server. I told him how I, as a seasoned audiophile, audition gear in my room..... He waited about 7 seconds (clearly processing the situation) and suggested, strongly, that I let him run the demo since he knew how to squeeze the last vestige of performance out of his equipment. He wanted to use HIS power conditioner (Audio Magic) and HIS power cables (Enklein David), not mine. I thought about it and said it was ok as long as he had extra power cords to run to my DAC and server simultaneously so we could keep all variables consistent during the comparison except the actual DAC or music server. I have 2 pair of identical XLR 1m interconnects and digital cables so we kept everything identical except for the actual DAC which was a/b’d through my preamp. His intention was also to bring his tweaks in but we ran out of time.

He was clearly skeptical of the ODSX but open minded. As we listened he commented positively on the ODSX many times, and allowed me to make any judgments on the LH DAC he brought. My ODSX never sounded so good, and the LH (with the Baetis serve) left me feeling the need to smoke a cigarette after we were done listening!!!!

At the end he admitred that he was blown away by how good the ODSX sounded. But we both agreed the Davinci LH was otherworldly!!!

We had a great time and a productive time. He brought over almost a hundred grand worth of gear in his car to my house and shlepped most of it downstairs into my basement listening room. He could have walked away without a sale that day easily, and without regret or malice. But his fund of knowledge, experience, exceptionally selected gear, passion and demand to audition his gear with the cables and accessories he knew (and brought with him) would allow the equipment to shine its shiniest reminded me that buying gear sometimes means you pay for more then just the gear, and it’s SO worth the expense!

I am obligated to list John of Audio Connection in this category as well considering his generous offer (which I never took him up on) to bring over and set up the very big and VERY heavy Vandy 7’s when I was speaker shopping. I decided it wasn’t for me at his shop, so I declined his generous offer. I have personally never bought anything from John, but he’s clearly a good guy. I HAVE bought from Dave before and he’s a great guy and someone to consider when you need to rely on an experienced salesperson who has amassed a great selection of gear to offer his clients. And he takes trades, which many do not. 

I happened to HAVE an Audio Magic Oracle I had gotten on a trade a while ago and never swapped in since I always loved my Shunyata PC. When I told Dave I had the Oracle, he wasn’t at all upset that I didn’t buy it from him, he was upset I wasn’t using it!!! After he left, I pulled the Shunyata and have been running the Oracle since. I want to let it burn for a few weeks before I pass final judgement. I’ll keep you updated.

And finally i need to comment on the insanely expensive $9k/meter Enklein David power cords.... I want them. I want them for my amps and my preamp and my DAC and my music server. And another one to wear around like a tie!!! I just wish they weren’t SO damn expensive!!!!! They remove everything and leave only what is supposed to be there. They get out of the way like nothing I have ever heard, or haven’t heard!!!

I want to try them out since he has plenty and slowly integrate them. But they blew away my Shunyata Alpha Digital PC. When the time comes I’m going to call the Cable Co and see if I can get a Shunyata Sigma Digital ( and High Current) PC in to compare..... still so much to do!!!!!

Thank you Dave, from one type of Doctor to another!!!!

Anyone at AXPONA??? How abought some summaries?

I couldnt go. :(

Was told that it was a very good show this year.  No really specifics though. I have a call into a dealer who was there and will share what he would like to share.  

Was told that it was a very good show this year.  No really specifics though. I have a call into a dealer who was there and will share what he would like to share.  

Subscribed to this thread. Interested to see opinions on different DACs.

I have tried
MSB Analog and Platinum DACS,
DCS Rossini
Play back Design (Currently Own the Merlot)
Total DAC Dual D1
Lampi 7

Ordered a Aqua Formula


For DSD I still prefer my Playback Design.

MSB NO SOUL (Analog DAC was more musical then the higher Teir models)
DCS NO SOUL
Total DAC Excellent Tonality and natural sounding.
Playback Design, Natural Sounding feels like the music is more engaging.
Lampi 7 was just not for me. Too Coloured for my taste.


My System Already consist of Tube Pre-Amps and Power Amps so Lampi was sounding too warm for my taste.

Their are some hard-core Die hard fans for Lampi DACs.

Dragon Vibe,

We are also an Aqua Dealer, and will be testing a Forumla some time later this year. What I will say based on having a La Scala MK II in the shop and if you read the Six Moons review of the Formula, Serjan, found that the Forumla was better in terms of spatiality, resolution and smoothness, but didn’t blow the La Scala away in every area and in a few areas macrodynamics and image density pefered the older Lascala MK II.

In our shop the Davinc decimates the La Scala and so it should considering the price difference.

What I will say is the Aqua digital is a wonderful sounding, very musical sound with a huge soundstage and very propulsive bass. It is very involving. The La Scala is a buy for its amazingly musical sound and its fantastic build quality for a $7k dac for the La Scala and $13k for the Formula.

You would love the Davinci which expands on everything the Forumla does. The Davinci is incredibily musical and sounds like a good vinyl front end but unlike Lampis and other very tubey sounding products the Davinci is very airy and extended in the top end without calling attention to itself.

The Davinci Dual Dac MK II also can handle any DSD file up to 512 and has a pure PCM Ladder Dac stage just like the Aqua.

Don’t get me wrong the Aqua stuff is fantastic and for the money is very hard to beat. If you are on the East Coast come in for a demo.

If you ever want to talk digital we have one of the best selections around including: Emm Labs, Aqua, Aurender, Baetis, Lumin, Naim, Cary, T+A

So far we have tested the Davinci Dual Dac MK I vs the DCD Rosini, Berkley, EMM Labs Dacs, and the Aqua and all the other dacs in the shop and so far nothing has come close.

Troy
Audio Doctor

I too am impressed with EnKlein cables, I own their lower price Taurus PC, AND LOVE IT. CANT afford David.

Audio Doctor,

Thank you for the info, after my experiences with other Super expensive Dacs, I am now trying too stick to Dacs which are under 15K. Simply because in the next 2-3 years we will have another breakthrough with DACs and set up a higher standards for others to follow.

After putting up my MSB for sale new lessons were learnt :-)

The Aqua at this present moment seems to fit the bill. I am very fond of my Playback Design Dac. I feel its the most underated product.

Thanks Audio_Troy. Your opinion and experience are welcome. Please curb the sales pitch part of the posts though. All are welcome, but no one wants to hear a dealer advertise here. I put a HUGE good word in for you guys and it’s well deserved. Let your customers speak for you; and I did. :)

Dragonvibe- Awesome to have you here!!!! You bring experience with DAC’s I have either heard but not in my room, or not heard yet. Thank you for that. I have had MSB in my room, not for me. I have heard DCS and PD in other rooms but not mine. I have not heard the Golden Gate in my room but it has sounded great elsewhere.

I have practically no experience with Playback Designs other then a show room. The Golden Gates I have heard sounded musical and engaging but where all tube bases systems and had so much flavor it was hard to tell where the seasoning was added. DCS are unique in my mind as it’s the only digital that needs to be selected first and then a system built around it. If you do DCS that way, you can create an amazing system; I’ve heard them. But you can’t put DCS into an existing system and expect to get the most out of it. DCS will ALWAYS sound lifeless and analytical if added into a system last....

I have arranged for a TotalDAC 12 audition this summer. I look forward to it!

Please keep contributing everyone!!!

The Playback Design to my opinion for DSD has not be toppled by the GG DAC in my listening room. I find the Playback design more transparent and quieter back grounds. The GG just seemed noisy. Both are very Musical DACs but for me the Merlot Dac just did everthing better and still remained natural sounding. For the GG Dac I assume the tubes are working hard to mask the Digital flaws within the unit.

Having a MP-1 and Atma Sphere OTL amps the system is very transparent already. When using the GG dac i could hear noise even after constantly changing over to different tubes.

I think the Playback Design Merlot Dac should be on your list to try out if you do find the time for it. After all Andreas Koch is hired by many top Audio companies to design their Digital products. Even EMM Labs use Andreas.

dragon_vibe - Really appreciate sharing your comments and experience! When mentioning your preference for the PD Merlot you've specified for DSD. How do you find it to perform with PCM files? I've seen the same thing mentioned elsewhere regarding PD DACs and would appreciate getting your further thoughts in that regard. TIA!

Bill-k took my words. Wanted to ask exactly the same.

At DSD I think Playback Designs are the Masters.

PCM They are on par with the very best R2R Dacs. I have heard better dacs at PCM then the merlot but these DACS are 3-5 times the price.

I’m comparing Analog MSB to Playback on PCM my self.

The Merlot was a little more transparent. You can hear the air from the singers mouth breathing during the music. however on the same file being played back on MSB you cant barely hear it you need to focus really well to capture it during playback. The MSB Platinum Dac was on par with transparency to the Merlot and at $40K Plus you would expect nothing less. But one Dac had more soul and density and space compared to the other.

The plucking of the strings are easily felt and heard on the Merlot, this just adds more to the dimensionality of the stage. The Analog would not portray this very well.

The PCM is more engaging on the Merlot, The MSB is a tad smoother/rounder similar to tubes and a little too laid back. It feels slower on the MSB then it does on the Merlot. The MSB Analog must be using a filter file to smoothen the sound but its mimicking a tube and not doing it very well.

Mind you the MSB Analog is twice the price to the Merlot.
Platinum is 4 times the price.

In terms of naturalism i think the Merlot is on par with very top R2R leagues.

It all comes to personal taste. I like a well balanced system. Not into Sugar Coated sound and sweetened milk. It has to sound real/natural, convincing and emotional.

Sure Dacs with Tubes and DHT sound emotionally involving but its using artificial sugar to your coffee.

I done with slow syrupy sound, But I like what tubes bring to the table. This is why my System consist of OTL and Field Coil Horn Speakers. The Transparency is unbelievable. Every nusance within the file will show up and presented in a smoother, easy to listen fatige free sound. The Dynamics is frightening when listening to hard core classical music :-) few times iv had the jump factor. Above all I want to cry and only some systems can acheve this.

You can put up the volume with the Merlot and the soundstage blooms larger it does not shout at you. Their is a sense of ease and relaxation. Its not being forced down your throat. I find it very emotional and addictive.

I cant help thinking how the system would sound if I Up sample everything at the server to DSD and send it straight to the Merlot DAC. I have yet to experiment on this during my free time. I cant do this on the Playback Design Syrah Server.

That is the basic way I can explain this. With out jumping into audiofool jargons.

I don’t understand this Audio Industry. I have read online reviews and fell into buyers remorse on certain products. I genuinely feel Playback Design Dacs are underrated.


Check this out: Copied from AK Design website:

The story of AKDesign
AKDesign was founded in 2003 by Andreas Koch and in 2013 Bert Gerlach joined the company after having worked together with Andreas since 2007.
The founder Andreas Koch, draws on more than 30 years of industry experience with renowned companies such as Studer, Dolby, Sony, Playback Designs and others. Bert Gerlach lead the engineering development at an optical flow measurement company and with his keen interest built remarkable audio products for home and professional use. As a team, Andreas and Bert complement each other perfectly and together they can tackle any aspect in electronic audio design and production.

References

AKDesign has now provided services to renowned audio companies such as Playback Designs, Nagra, Constellation Audio, DAISy, EMM Labs, Sony among others. It has a state-of-the-art SMT manufacturing line with a BGA rework station and provides manufacturing services to companies not only in the audio industry, but also in airospace and health industries with stringest quality requirements.
The key personnel possesses long standing experience from the beginning of the digital audio era and has provided many award winning designs.

Dragon_vibe

Many thanks for a nice and educating review!

In terms of naturalism i think the Merlot is on par with very top R2R leagues.

Do you mean TOTALDAC by top R2R?

Yes Total is very good and so are a few others. With Total DAC I find the build quality a little less pleasing. However in terms of SQ they are up their with the very best.

" Above all I want to cry and only some systems can acheve this." I find this comment refreshing and honest. Being moved by the music is the whole reason to listen in the first place.

how does the Merlot compare to the MPS-5? The latter I know and compared side-by-side with the original DaVinci. Just wanted to get an idea.
best

I have heard the PBD many times. The GG is dead quiet in my system and is far better at DSD. No DSD has so far come close to the Lampi. My GG even has the R2R DSD256 and separate DSD512 engine. The latter is much better. Oh, I have the superclocks too.

Hi Wisnon,

Thanks, your opinion is appreciated. I noticed you post on many forums about your experiences with the Lampi DACs. Im glad you enjoy it. This is what high end is all about everyone has different expectation and listening taste.

The Golden Gate I have in my possession for 6 weeks was with a dual engine. Iv complained about the noise but if you research over the net I'm not the only one mentioning this a few members from different forums concluded the same. My unit had a slight humming to the chassis.

the one thing which is apparent on most Lampi dac is the build quality. It feels very much like a DIY Job when compare the build quality to many other well built DACs in the same league.

One may conclude after anylizing this thread that it is complete system synergy that is what is really important here.

In reality every dac that has been discussed has its merits and may just sing in one particular system. The Lampi is certainly one of the top dacs on the market, along with the Davinci, the DCS products, the EMM Labs Dacs, the Playback etc.

The issue then really boils down to a couple of things which may sway the listener to single in one factors such as:

1: Up-gradablility
2: Ease of serviceability
3: Construction quality/styling
4: Features
5: Overall value

This is one of the reasons we have traditionally offered dac from a number of great companies  as usually one size does not fit all.

The salient point is that you must listen to these products in your own system and you must also experiement with tuning your system to bring out the qualties that you are looking for in both the system and the dac.

We got one level of sound quality with the Aurender units and another level with the Baetis computer. 

So go out and just listen and then experiment with your source, one of t he nicest things about the Baetis or any true computer based solution is the freedom to listen to your dac with DSD files or PCM at whatever sampling rates you like. 

I will say that all of these dacs will sound amazing to you depending on finding the complimentary sampling rate and file type.

With Jriver and now Roon you have that freedom

Viva la difference and happy listening to all!

Troy
Audio Doctor


 

Audio Doctor,

Your absolutely right system synergy was something i used to take lightly not anymore experience shows what can work for others does not necessarily mean it will work for us. This is why an in home demo is highly suggested.

Out of Roon vs Jriver this debate has been going on for some time, which do you think sounds better to your ears?

All systems are synergistic.  That's the problem in audio IMHO....too many buy based threads like this or other ones I read and participate in.  They need to put a system together as just that...a system.  Well engineered and built products should all sound very good together, but this is also electronics and they don't always play well in the sandbox together.  I keep thinking I have a good system and then I upgrade and wow.....  The Quatro's were installed and set up yesterday and holy cow.  Now I can really hear what the rest of the system is capable of. I got the lower priced Treo's knowing I would upgrade within a few years, so I made sure I got components that sounded great with either speaker.  Now I don't have to worry about amps, cables or DAC.....  The synergy is there.  Have a friend who reads this thread too I believe and he did the same thing with B&W's.  I have not like many of the DAC's spoken about, but I know I'm the outcast.  I like a different sound possibly.  I listen to a ton of live music as I like to get out as much as possible.  I know many on this board also do as we discuss it all the time.  

Dragon has added even more life into a great thread.  Thanks man.

Ctsooner, I hate to disagree with you but I must. All systems are NOT synergistic.

We have seen way better results in some instances of using a tube preamp with a solid state amp sometimes from different companies.

We have also seen that sometimes too much of one companies products can tilt the sound in an unfavorable way while in some instances  company A's amp plus company A's preamp does indeed sound better.

As per synergy you would think in our main demo rig that the T+A preamp, plus the T+A amp, plus the T+A reference SACD/CD/Dac would sound the best, after all they are all from the same company and were designed together, yet the Davinci still sounds signigantly better. 

So if your point was valid then the all T+A system should sound way better yet it doesn't.

In your case Vandy Treo and Vandy Quattro are voiced similarily same with your friends B&W, if you for example moved from Vandy to Magico, or Vandy to Rockport, or Vandy to Rahido you would probably not be digging the combo with Ayre. 

The Vandy/Ayre combo works at the Vandy's tend to be a bit on the overally warm side with the Ayre's being a bit lean. So the combo works beautifully which is the defination of synergy.

We tried many brands of expensive reference gear because they did not work well with some of our speakers. For example we tried the Thrax gear which was fantastic stuff, and CJ, and Devialet and none sounded as good as the T+A gear on both our Polymer speakers as well as the Personas.

When we had the Scaenas the CJ combo was magical and sounded better then our reference solid state Chord stuff at that time. 

So synergy is when you find a set of speakers, electronics, digital, cables  power conditioning etc that work together to create a sound that you find that works to your particular taste and sonic expectations.

The main reason for why so many people flip their gear is they do not know how to create synergy, when sometimes just changing cables or adding a few things can make a system come alive. 

Troy and Dave
Audio Doctor

Great stuff!! I'm not sure CT meant what he said the way he said it. Peter and I have had many off thread conversations about system synergy and the importance of component matching. People buy from reading instead of listening; I think that was more his point.

I have heard MSB and felt as you did. The MSB unit came and left. I owned a Lampi Big 6, not a 7 or GG. The 6 was built well but had a garage made appearance and feel. I think the GG is a significant step up and has the ability (from hearing it at shows) to make its owner very happy. As I said, i have not heard a Playback Designs in my room. If anyone wants to arrange an audition I'm happy to listen.

Listening tastes, room acoustics, equipment synergy, hearing capacity, cable voicing, electrical and vibration isolation, and seating position ALL affect our experience and interpretation of a system's overall performance. I've had DAC's in my room that I loved and a friend strongly disliked, and vice versa.

I believe almost every DAC listed can be properly integrated into a system to create an emotionally engaging system. My system, my ears and my tastes have led me in the direction I have shared, and will continue to share.

Descriptions from myself and others should help to define different DAC's qualities so that buyers can make more educated decisions. Base purchases on descriptions of sound described here, and then listen for yourself!!!

Matt, thanks for sharing.  Yes you understand what I was saying.

"All systems are synergistic."  Sorry that I didn't post the way you could understand.  I actually was called by another poster who did understand what I was saying.  I can see where it could possibly mean what you thought it meant, but I've been around long enough to know that system matching is always critical.  That's pretty basic stuff, but thanks for your examples.

Matt, I'm excited to see how you feel about some of these others DAC's now that you will have what you feel is a great reference.  I'm looking forward to coming down to listen once it's broken in.  Will be a fun time.

The very current state of music servers (I just wrote this article last week, posting here first):

The technology behind Music servers is still brewing and percolating. I would say they are past puberty now, bounding towards young adulthood but still with room to grow and time to physically and intellectually mature. They are all built from the same parts: A hard drive storing the music as an Ethernet based NAS or as an internal hard drive (spinning or solid state), a computer needed to run software that allows selection of the music to be listened to, some type of translation device to convert that selected music data to a language and conduit the DAC can talk to and understand (either directly outputting USB or requiring a translator called an Ethernet Renderer that essentially converts those little magic packets of Ethernet information into a more standardized USB signal), some form of distribution hub, and a power supply. As with all audiophile gear, each component in the system including the cables that connect those components, the quality and speed of the parts used, the internal and external shielding from noise those components (and cables) are sensitive to, and the quality of power supplied to the equipment all determine the final performance of the system. Two solutions seam to be most common, and two methods of data transmission; although at this time one of the two methods must, at some point, be converted to the other before being able to speak to the DAC.

Music servers now exist as either independent and purpose built components with everything in one box (or one box with an external power supply) or as essentially separate components with everything above separated. The same task is accomplished either way. In the end, both must output either spdif, AES/EBU or, most commonly, USB. At this time most DACS don't accept Ethernet as a standard input; and those that do still require an Ethernet Renderer inside the DAC to convert the Ethernet packets into USB or bypass USB and convert directly to I2S which the DAC chip can understand.

An all in one music server internally houses and utilizes either Microsoft, Linux or a Mac operating system (usually Microsoft or Linux) and many have opinions about which is the best. Separate systems either use the simple Linux operating system built into the NAS or actually use a computer running Linux, Windows or MacOs that has been modified to use only those computational systems that are required to run the software which allows you to select the music. These computers are customized or custom made. A similar system has been designed and built into a dedicated music server. The separates system utilizes Ethernet to communicate with all of its parts until the final step. Ethernet is known to have galvanic isolation advantages and noise isolation advantages as a result of how packets of information are sent and reconstructed, which demands that all the information first arrive and then be converted. This, theoretically, results in less data transmission errors in a system isolated from certain types of noises. The problem is that each component along the way is still sensitive to noise and sensitive to the quality of its power supply. A dedicated music server houses everything in a single, shielded enclosure and shares a power supply, or several power supplies. Dedicated servers output their signal to the DAC via either spdif, AES/EBU or USB. USB sends its signal in a more linear fashion and is more susceptible to data errors, and is not galvanicly isolated. It does, however, have its advantages and many who are in the know believe that USB is still a better signal path and has many years of usefulness left before it goes the way of Betamax and the cassette.

After the computer and software point the music in the hard drive to the converter it needs to be beaten, manipulated and "reclocked" to essentially clean the data stream and get the most perfect set of bits possible to the final step. Again, this can be done with a separate device or internalized within the single chassis of a dedicated server. It then must end its long path by being converted via what's called an Ethernet Renderer from its little magic packets into standard USB to be passed on to the DAC for final conversion.

A dedicated server transits all of this information within. Some of it is, in fact, transmitted via Ethernet but many convert to USB or direct to I2S as quickly as technologically possible. Long Ethernet runs don't degrade sound at all (which is a luxury of a separate system since components can be placed far from the listening area), but very short runs of most other signal type yield better (i.e. less noise) signal transfer. Most prefer solid state media storage these days, whether internal or external. And most prefer their operating software on a separate solid state drive from the storage drive. There ends the descriptions and pitfalls of a dedicated Music Server. A system of separate devices is reliant on one more device, the Switch which allows everything to talk to each other in super fast two way data lingo that listens to the software running on the computer to direct those bits of music data on your hard drive to run as fast as they can to your DAC and get bounced around, attacked by noise, reclocked, and eventually converted to USB so your DAC can take that final step and make good old fashioned analog music signals with them. The Switch can utilize either copper wire or fiber optic wire to transit the Ethernet signal (optical obviously adds an extra layer of noise isolation but also adds more boxes to muck with the data stream). All of these boxes then require high quality linear power supplies to make the entire system sound its best. The NAS, computer, Switch, Ethernet Renderer, Reclocking devices and any optical converters used ALL require moderately expensive and well built power supplies. And they ALL require high quality (i.e. costly ) cables to connect them. As a result, a simple separate system including a NAS with built in Linux running music server software can send its signal to a Switch (which every house these days has anyway) and then to an Ethernet Renderer for USB conversion to a DAC, and there you have a relatively cheap and very good music server. To put together something more reference level requires top notch power supplies (Paul Hynes seams to be the resident expert and supply source), customized computers with solid state drives, lots of Reclocking, a good switch and an Sotm or MicroRendu Ethernet Renderer with lots of good cabling throughout. I believe the final separates system's result is WAY cheaper then the average top tier single box purpose built Music Server but requires quite a bit more effort to select, assemble and implement. Can a system of separates sound better then a purpose built dedicated Music Server? I don't see why not. To a tweeker and tinkerer it would not even be considered effort to put a high end multi-component system together. To someone on a serious budget it would be a worth while effort that would be paid back with huge dividends. To, I believe, most audiophiles, its not worth the complexity and DIY feel that putting together a true high end Server system would require. I could be wrong though, considering the audiophiles propensity towards "separates" like amp and preamp, or DAC and transport.

As a small aside, and to be through, someone has come up with a way to run the computer/software box directly to the Ethernet Renderer by utilizing 2 Ethernet ports and bridging them. The results are reportedly a significant improvement in sound quality by bypassing the need for a Switch in the signal path. I'm not sure how complicated this is to achieve, but the concept is logical and removes a box that touches the data, can add to its corruption and offers another point for noise to enter the system. I can refer anyone interested to the on line thread this idea is discussed.

Dedicated servers have now been out for years and those that make them have revised and tweaked these hardware and software packages to high levels. As I said, they are no longer anywhere near infancy. Some have come out with packages that are, sort of, half way systems with Servers that house the computer, software and typically a storage solution and export Ethernet to be rendered externally as more DAC's start to become available with built in renderers and more (and better) external renderers become available like the Microrendu and soon to be released SoTm SMS-200 ultra. But a fully equipped dedicated Music Server can now serve up the goods in true Audiophile fashion. And if you do have the know how, financial restrictions, DIY desire or tinkering prowess to put together a reference level multi-box Music Server then you will be equally (and some think more then equally) pleased with your results.

Hi I am from the UK and 15 -20K $ seems like a good chunk of cash to me.
My previous source was a Naim NDS which I would have thought you could buy 2nd hand for that sort of money, it is a streamer and a dac built in with quite a few digital inputs.
I have heard it with the files stored on a nas drive and some of the most engaging music I have ever heard was on this set up and the source was standard cd's.
This set up then also gives you the ability to use it as a dac for your other digital sources.
I did in the end replace it with the DAVE Dac from Chord - 8,ooo UK, I think it lives up to the hype, I am not sure if I had the time over I would do the same thing.
I would have that you should not have a problem finding a Naim dealer willing to do a home demo.
Naim also make a similar device called an NDX that works the same way, I also had one of those but sold it to buy the NDS, I have since heard that if you upgrade the power supply that this gives the NDS a run for it money.
Naim also make seperate DACS and althoght I have not heard them I would imagine that they would have a lot in common with the sound I was used to. I hope this helps
Matthew Lewis

Thanks Matthew.  I had an NDS I believe it was, but it wasn't for me.  I didn't like the lack of usb or ethernet inputs and the outputs weren't balanced (need balanced with Ayre gear).  Just want's the right match for my system. I've heard it in a few stores and it sounded pretty good.  A bit too much on the top end for my tastes, but that's a popular sound, especially in Europe.  It's a great build and looks nice too.  

Big money doesn't mean better! I purchased a Krell preamplifier for 7.5 k and later a marantz preamp for 4k that ran circles around the krell! Dacs are the same! PS Audio Direct Stream DAC is amazing for a whole lot less than 20k! Unless your system is Levison, Audio Research, McIntosh, etc! The PS Audio Direct Stream will do the job!'n

Pennsy- there are a lot of giant killer DAC’s out there. The Empirical Audio ODSE is under $9k and has destroyed DAC’s scoring 4x as much. It was my reference for years until I upgraded it to the ODSX $14k version. The PS audio DAC has been brought up repeatedly; and although very good does not compare to most of the other DAC’s listed here; this is from direct comparison.

That said, some of our systems are Statement/Reference level and can benefit from the best available. This thread is about "Absolute Top Tier" and that is what I am after.

To a certain extent, this thread has become a sports team debate... if your a PS Audio fan, or Bricasti, or Ayre, or Schiit, or Lampy, it’s all good. As long as YOU are happy with your system then that’s what counts!!

Agree with you Matt.  I LOVE my Ayre QX5/20.  It really is a great DAC, but I'm under no illusions that it's better than the TotalDac and many of the other 18k plus DAC's. It does, for my ears beat a couple of the 18k plus DAC's though, but I'll keep that off line in convo's with you, LOL.....Matt, you have found your nirvana DAC.  That said, it's a great thread and you are still bringing in a lot of the 8-18k DAC's.  You should add the Ayre as well as the Brinkmann DAC's.  I heard the Brinkmann and I don't remember if I told you about it, but it's a really nice unit.  Like the Ayre, very very musical and plenty of the micro and macro detail that both companies are known for.  I think both hit well above their price ranges. Totally different design as the Ayre is still a whole digital front end (pray folks never use a DAC as a pre amp though) and the Brinkmann is just a great DAC so you'd still need a streamer for you Tidal or Pandora etc...  I'd love to see how close to the TotalDAC it could be.  Or even the ODSX (wish that was a remote as I would have done the upgrade when Steve had it in to work on), but I needed remote with my MS and having a family who uses the system. 

I'd be sure and try out a Yggy

Not even close to the same ball park of the DAC's being discussed in this thread Randy. It's a nice DAC for the price and should be put up against the Ayre Codex and some others in that range, but it's just not what this thread is about.  Takes nothing away from a nice DAC for it's price range though.

Many say otherwise.

That is why he needs to try one blind and hear for himself.  Never dismiss a product based on its price.

While I agree one should not dismiss a product based on its price, you hardly ever see anyone hook up a $1000 component to a $20000 piece in a given system and perform a blind listening test. Similarly, there are a lot of disappointed shoppers who bring home a component that sounded incredible at the dealer showroom and find that it sounds like crap in their system at home. Folks usually buy what's at the extreme of their budget and generally speaking the more you pay the better the sound.

After my experience with MSB, Lampi, AMR, Chord and Playback Design i am no longer in the camp that believes the more you pay the more you get. No longer do I rely on Magazine Reviews or Forum Hype that one DAC destroyed another.

My playback designs runs circles around more higher priced DACs. This was a eye opener for me. I am yet to try out very cheap DACs to compare but I believe the FPGA and R2R dacs at the moment are reigning suprema in the digital domain.

Forum Hype is a dangerous marketing tool for the uninitiated with limited experience.

Every month a new DAC company will prop up and everyone will claim this is the next best thing. Enough with the crap...

High price does not always equal better!! This is a fact. There are $8k DAC’s (ODSE & APL DSD-SR for example) that I would chose without hesitation over many $12, $18k, $24k or $35k DAC’s. As an example, the new Reference Emm DA-2 was disappointing to say the least. I bought it, I auditioned it, and I traded it. But experience has taught me that there is also a pseudo-floor of about $8k below which currently nothing exists to compete favorably with the top tier DAC’s. If someone wants to prove that wrong please send me their sub $8k giant killer for audition and I will be happy to report my findings. That all said, I will gladly admit that the Davinci Light Harmonic DAC (which is around $35k) is the best damn DAC I have ever had in my system and mine will be arriving in about 3 weeks for permanent residence, or until something better dethrones it.

Which hits on my next point, just made by Dragon_Vibe, and he’s 100% correct. BE CAREFUL OF RAVE REVIEWS IN MAGAZINES, ON-LINE REVIEWS AND FORUMS. You would be shocked to see how many reviews are essentially just paid advertisements, how many on-line raves are subsidized and how many forums are fed info by people with motivations to sell product.

FROM DAY ONE, I HAVE PUT MY OWN MONEY OUT TO BUY EVERY DAC (and now have some sent to me for honest audition) I HAVE AUDITIONED! I DONT REVIEW, I AUDITION AND COMPARE TO WHAT I CURRRNTLY HAVE. IF ITS BETTER, IT STAYS. IF ITS NOT BETTER, IT GETS SOLD (or sent back). My opinions are 100% sincere and unbiased. If a company wants to send me something for audition they better be comfortable with me reporting to you guys that I don’t like it. Period. You get the whole truth!! Also, NOTHING gets auditioned without cooking for a minimum of 500 hours in my room to make sure it’s well burned in, settled, and has the best opportunity to sound its best.

With a new flow of DAC’s coming out, I’d love to get my hands on a top tier Playback Designs to audition, especially with Dragon_Vibes comments, and I look forward to CTSooner bringing his prized Ayre DAC over this summer for a good listen. I have no interest in buying a Golden Gate, but I’d still love to hear one in my room so I have an educated reference for you guys.

That all said, I will today be auditioning and comparing my (yes i purchased it to audition it) Chord DAVE DAC. A friend is coming over and we will be comparing it to my current reference ODSX. We will also be comparing the Aurender N10 I am borrowing to a Micro-computer running Windows and JRiver through a Micro-Rendu. That should also be a cool comparison. I don’t believe any fancy power supplies are involved so it should be a fair off the shelf comparison.

Thanks everyone for keeping this thread fresh and interesting!

Guys, I"ve had the Yggy in my system on two occasions.  One for was about 5 days.  I had a Codex in the house and did my own listening.  I then invited a few friends over to hear both units.  The Codex won every time.  The people listening weren't really audiophiles, just music lovers an one was a pro musician.  They never asked which piece was which, ,but it also wasn't a scientific test.  

The Codex threw a wider stage, went deeper in the bass and has much more detail.  The pace and rhythm was there in spades.  There was a male vocal (forget who) that had a reverberation in that lower mid that sounded right on the Codex.  The Yiggy was close, but it didn't give the same emotion that the Codex did.

I can see why Schitt has a following. Great products for reasonable cost.  I spoke to two owners of the units who post on Computer Audiophile I believe it is and they both had posts about the Yiggy besting the Codex etc...  I PM"d them and spoke to both.  Neither had ever heard the Codex let alone had one in their system.  I found that strange.  When I talk about a product it may have been hearing it once in a shop or someone else's system and me not liking what I hear right up front.  Could be many reasons, but I'm not the type to get excited about the TV on the floor at Best Buy that's the brightest of the bunch and stands out because of it.  

If you feel the Yiggy is better than the top DAC's Matt has had in his system, then that's awesome.  My post wasn't meant as a mean spirited comment to you, but I did dismiss it based on my own listening (The Codex isn't in the same league as the QX5/20 so I made an assumption that the Yiggy can't hold a candle to the QX5/20).  The QX5/20 isn't quite as good as some of the DAC's in the 18 and above, but better than a few I"ve heard.

If you want to get Matt  Yiggy to go up against the others, I'm sure he'll plug it into his system for a day.  If we can set that up for the day I get to visit with my Ayre piece then that would be great too.  Maybe I'll hear differently in Matt's room (can't wait to get there Matt).