I ran all 10 gauge solid copper wire. Heavy as hell. My system is fully to code, but I do it myself. It takes me longer then a professional would, but I save a fortune on billable electrician hours and I know its done to my particular standards.
Its not that hard to do a simple system like this. Even the lights aren't hard. I am happy to walk anyone through the process. I have a friend who is a licensed electrician and I am having him inspect everything prior to getting final inspections from the town. Its fun and rewarding to know I did my own wiring for my listening room.
I just need to take mpeg video of the whole room, floor to ceiling so that I can refer to it in the coming years if a change needs to be made. Its always good to have a full video of the floor, walls and ceiling to know where every stud, cable and duct in your walls is exactly located. I did this when I built my whole house and I cant tell you how may times I refer back to the videos since we moved in 7 years ago... |
Matt - make sure that all 4 AC runs are from the same phase in the panel. For your digital, you may want to use one circuit for all of it.
Isolated grounds do work, but as Al says they do not meet code. I have a friend that did this. He put a 6 foot ground rod into the earth and ran wires to all of his audio outlets rather than using the ground wires from the panel.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt (or anyone else) will you be at Audio Connection on Sat the 22nd for Richard Vandersteens visit? I'm going to head down, weather permitting. I should be there from start to finish as I have some auditioning to do in addition to the event. I'm in FULL code as to how my electrical system is set up. None of my 6 pack of wall outlets connect in anyway, so I don't get cross talk. I'm not sure what he did, but there is a separate breaker for each one in the box. The electrician is also an audiophile and I don't think he used Romex either. It may be all copper. I honestly don't remember it all, but he had fun installing it all. Said it wasn't complicated or anything. I know I have a huge main box and an aux box too for extra circuits for my wood working shop in the basement. |
11-13-14: Almarg
11-12-14: Ctsooner
I'd recommend for your electrical is to have totally separate and grounded (to earth) circuits for EACH outlet. I did that and it makes a huge difference.
11-12-14: Agear
I too have dedicated lines with with isolated earth (ionic) grounds.
Matt, I would advise against this, if I am correctly interpreting that what is being recommended is running outlet grounds to an earth connection other than the one that grounds the service panel. If that is not a correct interpretation of what is being suggested, I'm sure the others will clarify further. Any two bit electrician could provide that counsel. Al, how do you optimize grounding, or are you one of these flat earther engineers from the 1950s who believes coat hangers are comparable to any hi end cord and any well designed power supply is enough to negate the need for power conditioning, etc? (Judging by your many posts, it seems you are not). I have conversed with multiple dudes like that on other forums, and it makes for an entertaining thread. My ionic grounding scheme was provided by Lyncole, an engineering company out of California who typically does defense, military, and lab installations. I think the grounding game is a very interesting subject and worthy of another thread as Al suggested. I have quite a few audio buddies who have toyed with grounding boxes (Tripoint and Entreq) to good effect. The stock engineering response is that the only reason those boxes work is poor equipment grounding schemes. |
Thanks guys. My lines are run and I don't want to pull any more 10 gauge romex. I have 4 dedicated 10 gauge lines - each running to it's own outlet.
This conversation is happening on my system thread also. I got some great suggestions for ground loop control if I end up with any issues. My electrical system is VERY quiet since I live on a street with only 10 houses covering over 40 acres. And I had an Eaton whole house surge suppression system installed 6 months ago.
I ran 4 exactly identical lengths of 10/2 romex with the ground wire insulated in its own sub-channel in the romex.I don't think grounding issues will be a problem. If they are, I can always add an Environmental Potentials EP-2750 ground filter to each circuit in the sub-panel or Granite Audio Ground Zero #502 if its really needed.
Here's some interesting questions though...
1) Do you think that the motor system for my turntable needs to be connected to the same circuit as my phono stage or can I just run it to a standard accessory outlet next to the rack? I have a Teres Audio table and the motor is a totally separate module (its actually a trickle charger that charges a marine battery). There is an optical sensor built into the table to monitor speed, but that sensor is far away from the arm/cartridge and platter. The arm and cartridge are isolated and grounded to the phono stage.
I'm thinking its fine to plug it into the accessory outlet.
2) Should I keep the monitor for my computer plugged into the same outlet as my computer (which will be plugged into the "Digitial" dedicated line behind the rack)? or can I run that to the accessory circuit as well?
I'm thinking run it to the "Digital" dedicated line since it's connected to the computer directly with a video cable.
-OR-
should I run an identical length run of 14/2 romex to the sub-panel for a "dedicated" 15 amp accessory circuit for the turntable motor and the computer monitor? It would share a common ground at the sub-panel (which currently only has the 4 dedicated 20 amp circuits).
Hummmmmm...... |
11-12-14: Ctsooner
I'd recommend for your electrical is to have totally separate and grounded (to earth) circuits for EACH outlet. I did that and it makes a huge difference.
11-12-14: Agear
I too have dedicated lines with with isolated earth (ionic) grounds. Matt, I would advise against this, if I am correctly interpreting that what is being recommended is running outlet grounds to an earth connection other than the one that grounds the service panel. If that is not a correct interpretation of what is being suggested, I'm sure the others will clarify further. See section 1.2 on pages 7 and 8 of this paper by Bill Whitlock of Jensen Transformers, who is a renowned expert on such matters. Note the concluding sentence: "If multiple ground rods are used, Code requires that they all MUST be bonded to the main utility power grounding electrode." Also note the section starting at the bottom of page 3, "myths about earth grounding and wires." As explained in section 1.2 of the paper, having earth connections for the system that are separate from that of the main service panel is a code violation, a shock hazard and a fire hazard in the event of an equipment fault, and a hazard to the equipment (or worse) in the event of a nearby lightning strike. And I'll add that it would also be a potential excuse for your insurance company to not pay in the event of one of these disasters. You may want to start a separate thread on the subject of AC wiring and grounding, which will probably catch the eye of Jea48 (Jim), who is our leading expert here on such matters. Regards, -- Al |
Trying to understand....
Isn't a dedicated Earth ground simply using a shielded grounding wire from the outlet to the panel? So it doesn't directly share it's ground with anything else until it's in the panel? If yes, how does that differ from the standard non shielded ground in the Romex since its a dedicated outlet and doesn't share it's ground with anything between the outlet and the panel? I use plastic single gang boxes, so they don't need to be grounded. |
Hi agear, interesting, please tell me what a ionic earth ground is?, I know what dedicated earth grounds are, and shared main earth ground is for entire home, pardon me, I never heard this term before, BTW +1 on your post concerning room trearments, seen this, done all this, most sounded like mausoleums!, I suppose everyone has to learn from their own mistakes in audio, we all do, the never ending merry go round. |
1-12-14: Ctsooner
I remember when we set the room up for the first time, we realized how little treatment we needed. He had the Michael Green ceiling deals in the corners and that was it for the ceiling. He used a swirled ceiling to break things up. Sound stupid, but I actually think it may have helped as I've been in rooms with smooth ceilings and they were a bit too live for the systems that I've heard. Nothing wrong with a popcorn ceiling either. As we all know you can go into a room and set up your system and hear where you need some help. Sometimes you can over damp things and one problem cleared up can create another. that's why I like quilts, large plants in corners and racks of records or a diffusor type of deal in the rear. Everyone has preferences, but all too often the 'professional' rooms are way too damped and lose some timing and pace for me. I hear it often in stores too. one other things I'd recommend for your electrical is to have totally separate and grounded (to earth) circuits for EACH outlet. I did that and it makes a huge difference. JMHO +1 Most professionally done rooms sound like mausoleums. That works well for recording studies but does a poor job recreating a palpable auditory illusion that we all want. Michael Green was ahead of his time, and I know quite a people who have incorporated his tricks to good affect. I too have dedicated lines with with isolated earth (ionic) grounds. |
Steve, great advise. Matt, the question I have is where in the house are you located and how high is the ceiling? The dimensions can be just as important as the floor. Are you on cement or studs? now that you bring up the studs, yes, we made staggered studded walls for the rock. I just realized that. 2x6 construction too if I recall correctly.. It's been a long time though, but I remember staggering everything we did. We too glued everything. I remember when we set the room up for the first time, we realized how little treatment we needed. He had the Michael Green ceiling deals in the corners and that was it for the ceiling. He used a swirled ceiling to break things up. Sound stupid, but I actually think it may have helped as I've been in rooms with smooth ceilings and they were a bit too live for the systems that I've heard. Nothing wrong with a popcorn ceiling either. As we all know you can go into a room and set up your system and hear where you need some help. Sometimes you can over damp things and one problem cleared up can create another. that's why I like quilts, large plants in corners and racks of records or a diffusor type of deal in the rear. Everyone has preferences, but all too often the 'professional' rooms are way too damped and lose some timing and pace for me. I hear it often in stores too. one other things I'd recommend for your electrical is to have totally separate and grounded (to earth) circuits for EACH outlet. I did that and it makes a huge difference. I don't use a lot of special stuff for my electrical as the Ayre components have their own built in and that's how they want it to sound. I haven't even found power cables that I love yet. We've AB'd many of them and most have cut the leading edge or messed things up rather than help things. JMHO |
Matt - another thing I did in my listening room was stagger the footings and support pony walls under the floor, so the floor was not supported in the middle, causing a second harmonic in the floor.
Also, I used two layers of 3/4" MDF on the floor, glued together, staggered and screwed down, much like the walls of a speaker. It has thick carpet over it. The walls of the room are also sound-proofed to some extent. One has plywood under the sheetrock.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Thanks Al. I was looking in the 2014 buyers guide. I guess I don't get that with my subscription...
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Yes, double rock with Green Visco-Elastic glue spread thin in between. Glueing rock to studs as well. I was planning on staggering seams. I like the idea of flipping the rock 90 degrees.
I plan on treating corners with bass traps, 1st reflections with duffusion, and front and rear center walls with a combo of diffusion and absorption to reduce slap echo. Gonna float a "cloud" of diffusers on the ceiling in first reflection but need to establish seating and speaker location first. The first reflection diffusors need to be 4-6" deep and horizontal diffusors only. Front and rear to be shallow diffusors in both the vertical and horizontal plane.
My room has absolutely no furniture or cabinetry besides the listening chair and my rack, and speakers obviously. The rack will be located just to my right on the adjacent wall and a scotch behind to avoid any interference with primary or secondary reflections.
Alex, that's a cool product. |
+1 with Ctsooner, that is the way to build an audio room, all Natural!, no over kill and unnecessary room treatment's that cost alot of money, I have seen $100,000.00 treated rooms that did nothing for me, the spectral, MIT, Avalon, licensed room at Progressive Audio in Columbus, Ohio in the mid 90s. |
Will you be using double rock? Make sure the seems don't line up...I have done the first layer of rock vertically and the second horizontally. The Wadis engineer I spoke with years ago (when we did this at my buddys store) told us to do this..Ceiling too. We used cement rock too ;)...I don't remember the dimensions that we used, but Richard Vandersteen wrote about this years ago and my buddy consulted with him also (he was a dealer for Richard too). we set it all up using his rules of thirds. We used berber carpet and that was perfect. He didn't use much room treatment as he didn't need it. Lost of plants behind the speakers and quilts on the walls...He had a huge wall full of albums on the walls in front of the speakers...it was alike a baffle....there was no slap echo and the bass had plenty of room to breath without loading the room. Please share more about your set up either here or on another thread. thanks. |
Thanks, Almarg.
Regards. Jon. |
Steve, the review Jon is referring to, which was written by Steven Stone, begins on page 94 of TAS issue 247 (the "Spring 2015 Buyer's Guide" issue). The Off-Ramp 5 is mentioned on page 98, just before the "Conclusion" section.
Regards,
-- Al
|
There are only reviews of mini-DACs in there and the best-rated DACs page does not include the W4S. Are you talking the November issue of TAS? |
|
Jon - could not find it in buyers guide issue.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Paul, There is a firmware release for DoP64 support, as well as ALAC. Link here: QA660 DoP and ALAC supportThere are just two SDT-M prototypes at the moment, but more are on the way soon. Will let you know the details as we progress. The SDT-M is a SD card Digital Transport intended to work with our D/A converters. It uses a I2S-like connection, but not PCM. It is all DSD for both PCM formats (converted to DSD64, double DSD128 or quadruple DSD256 on request) and native DSD files up to DSD512. Of course, if you have a DAC supporting such rates and input you can use it too. Pinout of the 10-pin RJ-50 jack will be disclosed for a referene. For those who like to use it with up to 192k PCM only, there is always the good old S/PDIF output also available. :-) Best, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
There is a good review of the Wyred 4 Sound DAC-2 DSDSse in the latest TAS Spring Buyer's Guide issue, with an interesting comparison using the Off-Ramp 5 usb converter in and out of the chain. |
Matt - Here are a couple of simple and inexpensive things for your power:
Have the electrician install plastic flexible conduit terminating to plastic boxes. Get black, white and green THHN 12 gauge wire and have them precut and twist the black and white together using one person holding one end of the wires and the other with the wires in a drill pulling against the other and then loosly wrap the green around the twisted-pair. Pull the wire through the plastic conduit using a fish-tape. then install good outlets like screw-connection Pass and Seymour. No need to get crazy with the outlets.
The plastic boxes and conduit does not restrict the electric fields and therefore does not restrict the dynamic current flows.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1386218525&openflup&34&4#34 |
Hi all, I'm in construction and would love opinions, suggestions, comments about my dedicated room build.
I'm posting on my Virtual System page. Please read and comment ASAP to let me know your thoughts. Room is being wired up in next 2 weeks and then rocked.
So changes now=easy. Changes after rock = hard and expensive. |
Steve, thanks for your input. It's not a simple equation! |
Melb - some things that are still variables, even with DLNA is the CODECs for compressed music on the computer. They can screw up the SQ. Also, the S/W that formats the data to send to be packetized. That can be screwed-up.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Alex
Thanks for the link on the QA660. Very nice price! I find no mention of it supporting DSD though... Is this just not updated on their site yet?
Also, I am very interested in your new product, SDT-M. This looks very interesting! Do you have a projected release date? Also curious to your findings in comparison to your other player :) |
11-08-14: Mcondon
Well, if the sound of the PS Audio Bridge is representative of what Ethernet has to offer, count me out. I thought the Bridge, which streamed audio via an Ethernet connection, sounded awful. I had a PS PWDMKII w/bridge and it sounds wonderful in my system. It also sounds wonderful in 2 other systems I heard so I think the problem is somewhere else in your system. Bridge was best digital input for PWDMKII in terms of SQ. My complain with the bridge is instability. I have to reboot it daily. Every few hours, it just stops playing. I hold my breath with every firmware release whether if it will work or inferior SQ. I could go on and on ... I'm done with PS Audio until they have their act together. |
Mcondon,
In theory I totally understand your preference for the 'big established" manufacturers, they do suggest a sense of stability and confidence. It's been my experience/observation that it is the "cottage" 1 or 2 man companies who consistently produce the better sounding and more satisfying components. Be it DACs, speakers, cables amplifiers etc. They seem to get it right more often. It could certainly be the case that your experiences differ from mine.
Charles, |
Looked at the PS Audio Bridge. Looks like their own design. Its gotten some good reviews.... |
"if the sound of the PS Audio Bridge is representative of what Ethernet has to offer"
Just speculating, but it might be a case of using an OEM module rather than designing it themselves. I have not seen what they use. This happens a lot in this industry. If enough vendors use the same OEM module and the SQ is mediocre, it can put the damper on an entire technology. Look at the large number of OEM USB modules that are in products for different companies, and the resultant bad experiences we hear about on this and other forums. Both USB and Ethernet are viable mediums and can both sound amazing.
"until a big, reputable audiophile manufacturer comes out with a "plug and play" server that rips CDs, provides storage for backup, is easy to control with an iPad, and sounds stellar"
You might see everything from your big manufacturer except the "sounds stellar" part. Big manufacturers almost never get it right IME. I have modded a LOT of their gear in the past. Even most of these companies use OEM modules rather than designing it themselves. Just look at the history. Its a very few small boutiques that get it right IME. Each designer has an area of expertise, so its really difficult to find a designer that is excellent in all areas. This is why even the big guys often resort to OEM modules. Even if they do design it themselves, the designer may not be particularly strong in the key areas.
Besides, why would a really good experienced designer work for someone else?
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
If manufacturers of servers adhere to the UPnP or DLNA protocol, the inherent advantages of a server become moot. Here's why. Data in a UPnP system is sent in packetized, asynchronous form, meaning that it has to be buffered on both ends and has no clock signal embedded in it. So there's no jitter and no difference in the data on either end unless the server or the network is having problems. That's the technical advantage: it removes the problems associated with digital transmission and always provides the best possible data to the renderer ("DAC"). Variables are a bad thing. Just rip your music with good, high quality ripping software and your music should be worry-free.
Servers have some advantages, but are not a perfect solution. They have limited storage capacity and in many cases have the DAC and analog section in the same chassis with a noisy computer server. This is why Boulder adopted the UPnP protocol instead: any true media server can be used, the interface is universal and plug and play, and the server itself has no impact on sound quality because it's streamed asynchronously over ethernet.
The key is implementation. Boulder built the 1021 network player with a UPnP-compliant renderer and optimize the player to stream music. And their own tests comparing high res rips over ethernet vs the same cd played on the 1021 demonstrated ripped music sounds better in most cases (and keep in mind the 1021 is one of the few disc spinners which buffers the music).
With that said, I think servers have enormous potential if you accept their limitations, and if you look at the current top dogs such as the Aurender W20 & The Beast, we wont have long to wait for a real game changer to hit the market. |
|
Well, if the sound of the PS Audio Bridge is representative of what Ethernet has to offer, count me out. I thought the Bridge, which streamed audio via an Ethernet connection, sounded awful. The PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport was miles better in sound quality, but is not the last word in high fidelity. When I read claims that Ethernet audio is or will be superior to computer audio, my gut reaction is just to stick with a CD transport until a big, reputable audiophile manufacturer comes out with a "plug and play" server that rips CDs, provides storage for backup, is easy to control with an iPad, and sounds stellar without the need for a high cost USB-SPDIF converter. It cannot cost what Lumin charges, and it cannot be from a "mom and pop" operation with one or two people on board. Maybe I am a Luddite...but I don't work in IT and so the inconvenience of getting a computer or Ethernet source up and running seems worse than the inconvenience of getting up from my chair to put a CD in a transport when I want to listen to music. End of rant. |
Agear, I didn't know about these two, but glad to see more are doing this. Though the SDT-M plays up to 384kHz PCM and DSD512, here is something else I've also played with that does 192k and DSD64 in DoP format. I don't think it can be outperformed with a computer either: QA660 SD card playerBest, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
knghifi - Isn't the storage of the data in a buffer after de-packetization in the device sufficient? Yes. Not familiar with your design. Just curious, how big is the buffer or how much do you cache in time domain? |
knghifi - Isn't the storage of the data in a buffer after de-packetization in the device sufficient?
What purpose does it serve to store the data in another memory buffer?
I do reclock the data to reduce jitter.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Alex, EC designs and Lessloss have SD card players |
Agear, my system is listed in the 8-18-14 post on this thread. |
Audioengr, have you considered caching on the client/DAC side after the interface that receives the data? Now the client should be agnostic how the data was sent? |
Though many will take this as an advertisement (no worries), I personally don't think that an all-linear powered computer with Windows Server 2012/R2 and Audiophile Optimizer, all running in Core mode can be outperformed with another computer audio solution. But things really come to place when using the computer to load an SD card that plays the audio files from the SDT-M digital transport. SD card directly to output and with linear power. IMO, this is the only solution that comes close to a regular digital transport that cannot be outperformed by any computer audio solution, regardless of technology and cost. Reasons are obvious.
Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
11-06-14: Paul79
Ya, I hear ya. Hard for me to believe when I started all this, but tuning is necessary to get the best results. I to was of the mind frame that with the packet correction and retry, the digital source would not matter. Not so!!
I will say that I could never get a computer or a Mac to sound like what I have going here. The transparency and focus is really unbelievable. I agree with that Paul. Do you use the Totaldac as well or just the server? What does the rest of your system consist of? |
Ya, I hear ya. Hard for me to believe when I started all this, but tuning is necessary to get the best results. I to was of the mind frame that with the packet correction and retry, the digital source would not matter. Not so!!
I will say that I could never get a computer or a Mac to sound like what I have going here. The transparency and focus is really unbelievable. |
Paul79 - that is a bit disconcerting to hear. I'm hoping it will not be the case with my interface. I did not galvanically isolate because Ethernet is coupled with magnetics....
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
How you guys post so quick? Mine sometimes take over a day to show up...... |
Steve,
Totaldac Server/Reclocker, which is an ARM based mini computer running RT Lenux I think, with optimized power supply. This feeds the reclocker (in same chassis) with a USB Cable jumper. AES/EBU output to the DAC.
The NAS and Server are on the LAN ports of the router. This is all controlled with MPD software using Mpad App on Ipad. No homerun Ethernet or internet required.
The Ethernet cable going from NAS to Router is less important than the one going from Router to Server IME, but there is still an improvement even here, with the better Ethernet cable.
The better Ethernet cables provide much greater image focus.
Albeit, this is not as great a difference as different USB Cables make on a USB DAC, but the difference is really there.
Routers make a difference also! Belkin seems to be the best and most efficient here. I have Hynes supplies running the NAS and Router (12V) and the difference these made was unbelievable.
I use the Belkin AC1200 DB, and the Qnap HS-210 Dual Bay Fanless NAS with Crucial M550 1tb SSD's
So it all still matters I am finding, at least with this setup, but once dialed in, it has been quite revelatory for the sound here. |
"In other words, you are working on an Ethernet streamer or "renderer" that nixes the puter and takes its clocking out of the equation. Devialet and dBsystems (also out of France and which I used to own) have done that."
Correct. The difference is that I use novel techniques to reduce jitter in these interfaces.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Paul79 - which Ethernet cable is important in your setup?
Are you using a USB DAC or an Ethernet interface like squeezebox?
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"I'm Sorry. Can you explain the benefit of Ethernet over USB?
I'm having a hard time processing what the advantages are."
Its Ethernet only, no USB. Ethernet is packetized and has retry error correction. It treats all data the same, unlike USB, which uses a streaming mode for audio.
"Doesn't this all come down to Jitter and clocking?"
IT always does, however there are other considerations. Because USB uses more of the computer OS audio stack and Ethernet uses none of that, this is the advantage. Also, USB is not packetized and has no error correction/retry like Ethernet.
"Wouldn't the ideal server be connected to a DAC that shares a single external high end clock?"
The ideal DAC uses a high-quality internal clock for master clock.
"Steve, does your ODSX have inputs for an external clock?"
Yes, actually. The I2S input provides the external clock(s).
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
