Matt, read your system page, I do like the name of your page as well, awsome thing's going on there at your home, congrats are in full order, cheers matt. |
matt, Read your page again, this my friend is important. |
Gotcha. Read and points taken.
Just updated my photos. First coat of paint is up.
Hey Steve, any progress on the ready for prime time ODSX Diamond? |
Matt - just got the new Duelund and Jupiter caps to try. Building a new version of the XMOS USB module. Diamond knob looks really nice.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I'm putting a LOT of faith in you Steve. I turned down a killer deal on the hugely buzzed Trinity DAC with the hope that your reference DAC will toll in a new era of dac performance; leaving the Berkeley Reference, MSB, DCS and Trinity dac's woefully inferiority, licking their mortal wounds and wondering what the hell just happened.
But no pressure.... ;) |
Matt,
Did you at least get to try the Trinity so that you can compare the sound to the ODSX Diamond when it's ready? I have no doubt the ODSX would be special but until you compare it to the others in your system, you can't put the OSDX on top.
I know the Trinity has bested the DCS and MSB stacks from what I have read, so I would love to hear a comparison between the Trinity, BerkelEy Reference and the ODSX. |
LOL.
No. It retails for $53k and was still crazy expensive, even with my great price. And it wasn't local; so I would have been paying a fortune for a DAC I have never heard. I have also read it bests all else out there no matter what the cost, but with all of my other current expenses and projects its beyond my reach. If the deal is still available in a few months I might jump on it. I'd rather upgrade my speakers to either Evolution Acoustics MM2's or Focal Utopia 3 Stella's with that money (which would unquestionably yield HUGE improvements), or do all the cabinetry in my home office, or build an outdoor fireplace then upgrade my DAC at that cost.
Because the DAC and music server are so tech dependent and will likely be upgraded/replaced every few years I am more hesitant to spend mega bucks on them. We all know that great pre-amps, speakers and amps can last forever without ever really being "outdated".... But even the absolute top tier $50K+++ DAC from 10 years ago is practically worthless now on resale and easily bested by the average current $2500- DAC.
I love Steve's products. And, he is constantly fiddling and upgrading them and making those upgrades available to his customers for a reasonable price; not just discontinuing the product and replacing it with a different one. I really like that business model. It creates very loyal customers... |
Actually a used Pacific Microsonics PM2 DAC/ADC will likely cost more than $20K used! |
Matt - I'm not worried. SX slays them all.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve, any thought about having an external clock input on your SX to allow using the clock from an external source or external clock? It's a feature many look for in a reference level DAC.
Don't hold back. Cost no object. Blow us away! :) |
Most of these clock inputs are word-clock only, which is simply a bad idea.
The Overdrive already has I2S input, which includes word-clock, bit clock and master clock. I am already using this with my Off-Ramp and soon my new Interchange network renderer. Separate external master clocks (2 needed) are only interesting if the external clocks are a lot better than the internal clocks.
A word clock output however is a much better idea. This way the DAC always becomes the master., but the source must have word-clock input and be able to sync to it.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Ok. Then clock output. Thank you for explaining that.
But how is the internal clock you use in the ODSX (or the ODSE for that matter) compared to the internal clock in the Trinity DAC, the MSB internal clock or the external DCS clock?
What happens with the computer clock (MacMini) when connected via USB to the ODSE? Does the ODSE clock override the Mac's? |
I don't have any measurement data on these other DACs or clocks.
"What happens with the computer clock (MacMini) when connected via USB to the ODSE? Does the ODSE clock override the Mac's?"
Yes, the USB interface clock in the ODSE overrides the Mac clock.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Gotcha. Thank you. Can't wait to hear the SX. |
This seems to be a good place to throw out a question about a possible "top tier" DAC;
Have any of you heard the Aqua La Scala Mk II?
Darko and Srajan at 6moons both called it the best they have heard in their systems, "without the shadow of a doubt," and The Ear gave it 5 stars.
At around $6K it doesn't even begin to enter the ultra priced market but rather competes price-wise in the same arena as the OD SE, Lampi Big 6, and Metrum Pavane to name a few.
Issues include no DSD, two tubes, and no distributor or dealer that I could find in the USA. |
Usb is asynchronous so I thought there is no clock from usb card. Word clock is only for spdif. there was a great article from 2010 demonstrating external clocks performed worse than dac clocks. I will email the article to matt.
Steve. Eta on the release of the sx. Would late March seem about correct? |
USB has an embedded clock, just like S/PDIF. It is used in Async interfaces only to capture the data. It is then reclocked to the S/PDIF or I2S interface. Backchannel handshake insures there is no overrun.
March availability of SX is about right.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Ok, so now I have done some research into a server/DAC/ NAS system. I'm totally confused. I spoke with someone from Baetis about their servers. their lowest price one is around 5k and it rips which I have to have. He was telling me that USB sucks as a connection and that AES is the best if you find a DAC that has it and that their 5k unit uses a BNC s/p diff connection. He said that any DAC is DSD capable with some program from JRiver and that it's marketing BS saying a dad is DSD capable ( believe that's how he put it).
I have heard some of the DACs in this thread and I haven't liked some of them. I have never heard Steve's DAC. I was told that Bel Canto 1.7 is a good inexpensive one and that the Berkley Alpha 2 is the best under 5k. This seems to fly in the face of what many in this thread have said.
I also liked a few other servers like Antipode and the Aries streamer looks like a good value, but I don't know how it really sounds as I don't know anyone who has heard it.
I don't want to go back and reread this whole thread so my question is where do we stand on DACS under 5k? What about what the Baetis guy told me? He also said that digital cables make a HUGE difference compared to analog and I fully believe cables are huge and always have heard a big difference.
Matt, are any of the DACS you heard in the 5k range? Maybe I would even be able to find a used model so that I can afford that and a server. I only have maybe 1k CD's and I still use phono or else I could go directly into an amp and sell my integrated. Wish I knew more about digital. Glad you have this thread...thanks all |
My ODSE was just under $7k with the promotion running at the time. And you all know my feelings on its prowess. Spend the extra $2k and by a Mac mini and you'll be in heaven for well under $2k. Then buy my prized Merrill Veritas amps (about to be put up for sale) and hold onto your hat!!
I find anyone who bashes any method of signal transmission a questionable resource. I get ridiculously good sound from my Mac mini via usb. And the Trinity DAC, which retails for $53k, and many consider to be the best out there, relies on its usb input as its best input (so much so that the designer opted for usb as his choice of signal transmission from his transport to DAC).
CAD also has an exceptional usb input from what I have heard, and a usb cable that is also supposedly top notch.
As far as DSD goes, I can only give you opinion, not technical responses. Overall I do not prefer the sound of those DACs that convert everything to DSD to make music. I prefer my PCM to stay pcm until it's analog. DSD as a source has its advantages. I still have no interest in DSD and focus on red book cd and hi rez PCM. That said, there are certainly DACs that do DSD properly as DSD input processed in a DSD domain. DSD converted to PCM is a different story and can be accomplished with the proper hardware or software. I'll leave the technical answer to others.
Don't listen to me, listen to the DAC's. They speak for themselves. I can tell you the different ways to convert digital to analog yield very different sounds. You will unqionably prefer one way or one brand over another. Just get your ears on them and you will see.
|
Sorry, one more point about usb-
I don't know why, but many very high end DACs have opted for mediocre usb input/converter modules that make usb a poor input choice for that particular DAC. Maybe they believe, as you were told, that it's not worth the expense since most DAC users are still feeding their DACs bits via spdif from a transport. Berkeley Audio (and Concert Fidelity) are one of only a few companies that I respect their decision to exclude a usb input entirely with the attitude that if you need usb you are willing to use a properly implemented external USB to spdif converter.
Steve oviously puts huge effort, thought and energy into his usb input (read about his well respected Off-Ramp technology) as he believes his DAC is an ideal match to a computer as source as well as a transport. Alex's APL DSD used the XMOS chip for usb to very good effect, and I know that the CAD DAC and several others are designed (like the ODSE) to be used with a computer as source, so the usb input is better because it has to be.
I think that as Servers become the standard source, usb and Ethernet will replace SPDIF (AES, BNC), etc. But that last bit is my own opinion. I encourage the gentlemen from APL, Empirical and CAD to respond as I am truly curious about their thoughts as to what direction the future of digital transmission will take as Servers and NAS storage become the standard.
Sorry for the long message. |
"He was telling me that USB sucks as a connection and that AES is the best if you find a DAC that has it and that their 5k unit uses a BNC s/p diff connection."
USB sucks if the design is poor, just like anything else that is poorly designed.
"He said that any DAC is DSD capable with some program from JRiver and that it's marketing BS saying a dad is DSD capable ( believe that's how he put it)."
Jriver can convert DSD to PCM for the non-DSD DAC, but there are DACs that are truly DSD capable, and double DSD.
"I don't want to go back and reread this whole thread so my question is where do we stand on DACS under 5k?"
Favorites are Bryston, Sony HA series, Metrum Hex, Resonnesence.
"What about what the Baetis guy told me? He also said that digital cables make a HUGE difference compared to analog and I fully believe cables are huge and always have heard a big difference."
S/PDIF, AES and USB cables all make a big difference.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Another DAC to consider is the Chord. Even the Qute with my Dynamo power supply and Short-Block USB filter is really great sounding.
As for digital interfaces, the problem with USB is variability with the computer software. I think there will be less of this reliance on the computer and S/W with Ethernet renderers. This is why I have designed a renderer that is interchangeable with my USB interface in any of my products, called "Interchange". Availability summer 2014.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve,
To shoot another direction.... What AES/EBU Cable(s) do you recommend? Your SPDIF Cable is absolutely da bomb, and wonder if you could share anything about any AES/EBU Cables you may have tried?
Thanks! |
Wow, thanks to you all.. Steve, thanks for the response, but I have to share that I really thank you for taking my call. It has helped clear up a TON! I really want to hear your DAC. The only problem I ever have with mail order is that I need to hear things first for obvious reasons. As I told Steve yesterday, I need to have a balanced analog out (true balanced) as it's the only way the Ayre will sound special. I have my phono going now too, so I can't use the digital volume controls in any of the DAC's...too bad as that would be simple to just get a nice amp and use the DAC for both jobs. |
Paul79 - I generally build my AES cables from a Belden cable that is 110 ohms. If you wanted to try one, I could build one for you. Cost is $150 for 4 footer. Email me.
Thanks,
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
CT - check Audiogon for Overdrive SX. A customer is selling his to upgrade to SX, even though its not available yet.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt,
I wanted to report my findings on another dac that has both ethernet and USB input. Although I have taken great strides improving my computer server, the ethernet input improves everything by a wide margin. Considering I have invested over 10K in my computer server, it is nice to find a better work around.
Although dac design and implementation is unique, I have great confidence in Empirical's new renderer.
Steve, can you state more information regarding this unit that will be able to be used with any of your products? Would a user need to send the unit to you to replace the USB card for an Ethernet card? Or is this a separate external unit, Like a Ethernet to I2S?
I have been fortunate to be given on loan many dacs recently and believe for best results use both a PCM specific dac and a DSD specific dac. Having two dacs in your system is not inconvenient, unless you are in random play and switch between formats.
Because of the ODSE, I am not overly crazy about DSD. When I take the same recording: DSD on a universal DAC (configured for both DSD and PCM) or Redbook PCM on ODSE, 16/44.1 sounds better. |
"Steve, can you state more information regarding this unit that will be able to be used with any of your products?"
Yes, it can be put inside the Off-Ramp or the Overdrive.
"Would a user need to send the unit to you to replace the USB card for an Ethernet card?"
Yes.
"Or is this a separate external unit, Like a Ethernet to I2S?"
No, its a module that replaces the USB module.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve, please clarify the Ethernet alternative. How does the DAC connect to the Mac mini, through a direct Ethernet link from mac to DAC or through my router?
And did you decide to use the XMOS chip for usb conversion in the SX?
Ketchum - is your ODSE still your reference? |
The Ethernet interface plugs to any router or switch on the LAN, just like the computer connects wired.
The XMOS interface is still under debug. Latest version being tested tomorrow.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt,
Yes. Empirical is still my reference. I have been given on loan for review gear from a somewhat new company out of South Korea that is very innovative. I hope they find a honest distributor that will treat both the company and consumer well as I believe they have much to contrubute to the community and like Steve Nugent, brings value to the market. For those that do not know Empirical's business model, there is no middlemen necessitating a 400% mark up. I would be surpised if these units are sold 50% above cost.
On a different note, the ethernet would negate the need for a computer server, per se. Instead you have a computer or controller that tells the NAS drive for example to send the files direct to the dac. The files are effectively delivered unprocessed.
The Complete Guide To HiFi UPnP / DLNA Network Audio
on computeraudiophile website is a good reference article and he wrote 3 others on this topic as well. |
I just pulled the trigger on a used Overdrive with all the updates. I can't wait to get it up and running. Still trying to figure out what I'll use to stream things. I am still leaning towards a server as it's easier for me. I lost out on a couple of the mac mini's from 2009.
I know Steve says Mac mini with new power supply and a NAS. Do any of you use a server and if so, which one. I assume you will also use the USB connection. I'll get the Synchro Mesh so I can use my Apple TV and Uverse box (both toslink). |
It looks like out hour and a half phobe conversation helped you to make a decision. You won't regret your choice. Wait until you hear it!!! |
Dagogo review of the ODSE just out:
http://dagogo.com/empirical-audio-overdrive-se-usb-dacpredac-review
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt, so pumped. Have to make sure my paypal has cleared...Then I can get what I want from Steve, lol. Headed down to NJ to Audio Connection tomorrow as I have sold a bunch of me gear that's I've had there for re tubing. If you are around???? Steve has been AWESOME in dealing with my questions etc... That was a huge reason I pulled the trigger over the Ayre. |
Congrats Steve! A well deserved glowing review.
Merrill (of Merrill Audio) really liked the ODSE when I invited him over to compare his Meitner to my, then newly acquired, ODSE. He and some of his friends had just finished their own DAC shootout and found his Meitner to be the winner. He was very quiet while we listened to the Meitner, Lampy Big 6 and the ODSE. He never formally admitted defeat of his Meitner but he agreed that the ODSE sounded the best of the 3 in my system and my room.
He told me the next day he really liked it and had reached out to a reviewer friend of his to tell him about "his" discovery. Lol. I guess his Friend (who was obviously Mr. Borden) liked it also. |
Matt, did you get the Burmester equipment yet?, sure would like to know more about how this sound's with you new room and other equipment that is not Burmester, cheers. |
New gear has arrived. But with my Criterion sold and my new preamp and amps awaiting conversion from 220 to 110 I'm without tunes for a but. My new room is also a week or 3 away from done. Transition is painful but will totally be worth it.
Sorry there's been nothing else to report. Once the gear and room are running I'll have more to say. |
thank's matt, I look forward to your impression's. |
Remember I had the 077 preamp and 911 mk3 stereo on loan for 2 months from Burmester and it was the best reproduced music I had ever heard. Not just from my own system, but ever.
I actually acquired a pair of 911 mk3 monoblocks. I am literally oozing from every audiophile orifice I have (sorry for the image) with excitement. My room is SO close to done. Of course my side wall vertical diffusion treatments are back ordered and not due for 2-3 weeks. But all other treatments will be in by the end of next week.
Stay tuned. |
Oh. I met with Sunil of Care Audio today and secured an Allnic DAC demo when I'm ready. For any interested in Allnic, 3M, or Vicoustics gear should give him a call. He's good Audiophilio.
The report from the Allnic importer is that the DAC tested by Stereophile had 3 bad tubes and the distributor was never notified. I'll let my ears decide. |
I agree that the ultimate test is in the listening, and nothing else really matters. However it is interesting to note that all of the claims regarding the cause of the Allnic DAC's poor measurements refer to its fragile vintage tubes that were apparently damaged in shipping. However some of the worst and most disturbing measurements were in the digital section of the DAC, not the analog stage. Best of luck with your room acoustics, and we look forward to your further findings in due time. Good listening! |
I am very familiar with allnic and the D5000.
To be clear. In order to test the digital realm the signal passed through the dht tubes. I had mine sent off to So Ca for independent testing. It too tested poorly but sounded excellent. Even the engineer commented to this effect. There is something inherent to the DHT tubes that create poor results. My unit test results were symmetric and poor. I do have an extra set of tubes. I do not have the testing equipment and my ears do not hear a difference between channels or an overall improvement between them.
Interestingly Waversa tests are perfect. I have no explanation.
The DHT dac is an excellent dac. I give it higher marks than the engineer who felt the Resonnance invicta mirus is currently top dac. Best measurements and best sounding. I have no experience to say either way. It sells for only 5k.
Sunil - he is wonderful on all fronts. I would not hesitate doing business with him. He also has a demo program which I highly recommend. Never purchase on reviews alone. I did for the EMM dac and was a financial mistake.
Anyone interested in Allnic gear and wants an unbiased perspective pm me.
I have a to b tested allnic to the odse. Both have unique qualities. I did sell my odse for the diamond SX with ethernet input. I currently have a dac with both ethernet and usb input. Ethernet is a magnitude better, eliminating the server.
Check out my allnic review for those interested. Call Sunil and demo before purchasing. Demo both the odse and decide for yourself. Empirical also has a demo program. Your system, your ears, your money. They all are great people to deal with.
Cheers! |
How do you do ethernet instead of usb? I don't fully understand how to not use a server. Sorry, crash course need, lol. |
CStooner,
You could the $14K Dartzeel "Danalogue" that is about to be release. Its the LHC-208 and its an Ethernet Dac (to 384PCM (DXD) and DSD128) and 200 wpc Integrated amp in one. For darTZeel, that is very "cheap".
Otherwise, just get a Sonore Signature Rendu for $3k (Streamer) and that will take Internet input and output in RCA Spdif or HDMI (i2S - PS Audio standard). What makes this special is that John Swenson consulted on this one and it has a reworked power distribution network on the input and isolates the transport from polluting the Dac, especially via i2S (I think he uses giant magneto resitives).
An extract of his burb here:
"On isolation, I have been including full isolation between digital sections and mixed signal sections for many many years. I do not use optical isolators, I do not like them at all, I prefer the GMR (Giant Magneto Resistive) isolators made by NVE. I think they work way better than opto isolators."
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f10-music-servers/mac-mini-version-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-music-server-step-step-17666/index10.html#post370186
Finally I think Steve is planning Ethernet input in his latest Dac |
My Interchange renderer will do the same thing and be priced in the $1500 range. It will have I2S, AES and S/PDIF coax outputs just like the Off-Ramp. It can be upgraded with my Dynamo power supply for $699. Available this summer.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Thanks Steve. Appreciate the input. |
Please be aware that the Signature Rendu is not the same as the regular (basic) Rendu ($1200 or so). It is an all out assualt and the key is the PDN design by John Swenson who is well known online. I copy Paste Barrows explanation. He consults for Sonore and PS Audio.
barrows - 01-07-2015, 11:18 PM Report Post Reply
Hi folks, let me give some technical information about the differences between the Rendu and the Signature Rendu. The Signature Rendu uses a transformer which is ~4 times the price of the transformer in the Rendu. The Signature Rendu uses (2) oscillators (clock circuits) which ~10 times the price of the ones in the Rendu. The Signature Rendu comes in a beautiful custom chassis (made in USA) costing ~6 times more than the Rendu chassis.
OK, so above you can get an idea on some of the parts costs increases. Here are the technical details which make the Signature Rendu sound better: 1. transformer is high quality Plitron Toroid, and it is cased in a sub-enclosure to guard against EM leakage.
2. the power supply is more robust, uses special ultra fast/ultra soft diodes, has more smoothing capacitance, and uses premium quality parts in all positions. 3. The Signature Rendu adds an additional output-reclocking board. This board holds the oscillators, the isolators, and the re-clocking and SPDIF/I2S output circuitry. This board is the key to the performance increase over the regular Rendu. The output board is isolated from all noise generated on the Ethernet receive board (high speed processor noise). On the output board clean clock signals are generated without interference from the Ethernet board. All signals are re-clocked just before output from the clean clocks.
OK, so how much difference sonically??? That is for the user to decide, as in all things with high end audio, there are diminishing returns: higher performance comes at a exponentially higher price. The original Rendu is very good, the Signature is better. The Signature is for the person looking for the best SPDIF/I2S source for their DAC, without compromise. Many people might be happy with the original Rendu. But do not listen to the Signature if you want to get the original.
I consult for Simple Design/Sonore. |
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/section/ca-academy-2/
at this site there are several articles on Ethernet input and advantages/disadvantages compared to a music server.
I have on loan a unit from Waversa from South Korea which has both inputs (USB and Ethernet). Speaking with two friends over there, they believe uniformly Asian audiophile market has moved away from USB for the reasons Steve Nugent mentioned previously on this thread. In essence I found the Renderer (Ethernet input) is a magnitude better than USB.
Setup is more complicated and playback options are somewhat limited. This is the downside I found so far. Maybe others could chime in here.
The renderer (dac with ethernet) has an IP address. You use a remote that can be a portable device app or another computer. The remote only tells what files are sent from your source (HD or NAS or Internet) to your DAC. Some dacs have volume control, like this one. However, if used, the DSD over PCM will no longer work as the bit length is altered and DSD signal cant be determined in the PCM 176 sample rate.
With the IP address, you (or the manufacturer) are able to make processing adjustments remotely, alter other settings or implement firmware upgrades. |
Wish I understood more of this. Think I'll be sticking with USB servers for the OSDE as Steve said the USB is the best input on his device. So many choices, lol...which is good. |
