A question about headphones

@fsonicsmith1  ... Shining like a diamond, rolling with the dice
Standing on the ledge, I show the wind how to fly
When the world gets in my face
I say, have a nice day
Have a nice day! 🙉

Not all headphone outs are made equal. It’s not just about high output impedance. Some headphone outs are afterthoughts in a design process...others are dedicated if you look at the internals.

For example, a series of resistors on a dedicated mainboard connected to ground inside the amp with another wire and a ribbon computer-like cable connected closed to where the main filter caps are is optimized to handle almost any headphone impedance / sensitivity rating expressed in dB.

Some integrated amplifiers also have dedicated volume pots with a series of their own capacitors - made to drive headphones of nearly any impedance. Always check with the manufacturer regarding output power into ohms. (both channels driven or a certain number + a certain number.

For example, quite a few Sony vintage amplifiers only had 25mw into 8 ohms. However, they surely sounded better than the audio output of a smartphone when paired with a good source.

My suggestion for bluetooth would be Audio Technica. If you look at their previous flagship models, such as the ATH-DSR9BT, (used to have it) sold it a while back, you will find that the audio quality is above just good.

With this said, listen to .wav files or .flac with that audio technica headphone, because the tech they use can almost double the data-rate in kbps compared to 320 kbps for .mp3s (1411 kbps for CDs is just right imo).

What kind of sound signature/music do you enjoy the most?

Maybe I could recommend you something great.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and flurry of posting over the last nine months but many of your posts are incomprehensible. This is one of them. Perhaps you know what you are talking about, perhaps you don't. On it's surface, what you wrote is utter nonsense. 

@r042wal

Not all headphone outs are made equal. It’s not just about high output impedance. Some headphone outs are afterthoughts in a design process...others are dedicated if you look at the internals.

For example, a series of resistors on a dedicated mainboard connected to ground inside the amp with another wire and a ribbon computer-like cable connected closed to where the main filter caps are is optimized to handle almost any headphone impedance / sensitivity rating expressed in dB.

Some integrated amplifiers also have dedicated volume pots with a series of their own capacitors - made to drive headphones of nearly any impedance. Always check with the manufacturer regarding output power into ohms. (both channels driven or a certain number + a certain number.

For example, quite a few Sony vintage amplifiers only had 25mw into 8 ohms. However, they surely sounded better than the audio output of a smartphone when paired with a good source.

My suggestion for bluetooth would be Audio Technica. If you look at their previous flagship models, such as the ATH-DSR9BT, (used to have it) sold it a while back, you will find that the audio quality is above just good.

With this said, listen to .wav files or .flac with that audio technica headphone, because the tech they use can almost double the data-rate in kbps compared to 320 kbps for .mp3s (1411 kbps for CDs is just right imo).

What kind of sound signature/music do you enjoy the most?

Maybe I could recommend you something great.

Apparently, these are the best Bluetooth headphones ever made, but, at a steep price of $1,600:

https://www.ta-hifi.de/en/headphones/solitaire-t/

Thanks for the tips marco1.  I have two pair of extra tubes that came with the amp, different makes.  I think the previous owner was doing exactly what you suggested.  :-)

Hate to already be recommending other headphones but if you like bass and early rock and roll pair up some Audeze lcd2 classic's with your Lyr2.  I can tell you from personal experience you'll be very, very happy.  Also go to headfi for a wealth of information regarding Lyr tube rolling.  You'll be amazed how different tubes can greatly impact the SQ of that amp.  Like speaker systems everything can affect what you hear but don't discount the impact an upgraded HP cable will also have, even on headphones in the price range you're currently in.  So many (new) different rabbit holes you can go down now with you new addition :-)  Have fun.

Your bluetooth dongle should probably be plugged into a line out on your preamp.  I've had very poor results plugging transmitters into headphone jacks.

OP, thanks on your comment or direct headphone output. I was just keeping an informal tally.

Heh heh. Damn those pesky unknown unknowns. I prefer to think of it as ignorance is bliss. Much easier that way.  Of course in this day and age you could always just make up your own alternative facts to explain/rationalize anything and just keep repeating them until they become known knowns.  Ugh. 

@r042wal   Congratulations. Great to hear you "couldn't be happier.' 

I purchased a 'new to me' Shitt LYR 2 headphone amp and a pair of Hifiman HE-R9 cans.  To sum it up, I couldn't be happier for a first time setup

@soix don't forget Donald Rumsfeld:

“There are known knowns — there are things we know we know.  We also know there are known unknowns — that is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don’t know we don’t know.” 🤣

@r042wal I’ve read that McIntosh configures their headphone output differently and that taps into their amp section.  I’m not really a Mac amp fan, but I don’t know why more amp manufacturers don’t take advantage of their amp sections for headphones in this way.  ???  Then, I don’t know what I don’t know.  

I tried plugging my headphones directly into the 1/4" plug on the front of my C48 preamp and it sounded terrible - at least as far as hi-fi is concerned.  There was no comparison connecting the line out on the preamp to the line in on the headphone amp - the sound was amazing!  

I was mentioning in my earlier post that the only manual task I had to do before listening with the headphones was to turn off output 1 that feeds the power amp.  Well McIntosh makes that too easy because that function is on the McIntosh remote control (which I never use).

I have heard a lot about the Sennheiser HD800s in that the name comes up often.  Depending how much use my present headphones get, at least I  now have a gift suggestion for my wife the next time she asks!

But have fun! I love my Sennheiser HD800s… open backed and simply phenomenal. But until I had a phenomenal high current tube amp they were like many people describe them too trebly and a bit lean. Not at all in my system.

I think @ghdprentice nailed it.  Just like with home systems, HeadFi systems in the end are all about synergy.  No substitute for that and trial and error.  The more work you put in, the more you get out.  Such is audio.  

Congratulations. Sounds like you hit on a good solution without breaking the bank.

I suppose you tried directly connecting to your preamp. My guess is that the sound is much better through your headphone amp. But, I’d be interested to hear what you think after a lot of hours on your new setup and you know what it sounds like.

I don’t think I know anyone (that is into high end audio) with one set of headphones… or headphone amps for that matter. Watch out. I guess it is that it is so much less expensive than main systems. But, you end up realizing different headphones have very different power requirements and headphones sound very different and you can switch quickly.

But a word of caution, you do have to match well. I have a very smart friend that for some reason seems to be unable to do component matching and has half a dozen flee sized head amps and he keeps buying headphones that require large amounts of current and can’t figure out why they don’t sound great.

But have fun! I love my Sennheiser HD800s… open backed and simply phenomenal. But until I had a phenomenal high current tube amp they were like many people describe them too trebly and a bit lean. Not at all in my system.
 

If there is a take away from me, it is that a lot of weaknesses in different high end headphones go away when feed correctly… massive current and natural detailed sound. My HD800s and Focal Utopia now sound pretty similar… when with lower level electronics they sounded vastly differently.

Congrats!  And that’s for the follow up. 

RCA Output 2 on my preamp ran directly to the line inputs on my SVS SB-2000 Pro sub.  I plugged these directly into the line in on the LYR 2.  Line out on the LYR 2 goes to the sub.  When the headphones are connected, the inputs to the sub disconnect by themselves automatically.  The only manual step I have to do is turn off Output 1 on my preamp that feeds the balanced input to my power amp.

Neat little setup there!  Nice job figuring that out and picking some nice pieces, and glad the sound is giving you what you were looking for.  I’d absolutely encourage looking for some open-back ‘phones.  You seem to really like the Hifiman sound, so something like the Ananda Stealth or Arya Stealth (which I own) should be high on your list.  Anyway, congrats again and enjoy!

UPDATE:

I just wanted to give all of you that took an interest in my project an update.  I purchased a 'new to me' Shitt LYR 2 headphone amp and a pair of Hifiman HE-R9 cans.  To sum it up, I couldn't be happier for a first time setup and came in under $1000 CDN.

The amp and headphones sound fantastic.  There are two tubes in the amp and they have a great sound.  As a bonus, I don't have any of the interconnect hassles I thought I might have.

RCA Output 2 on my preamp ran directly to the line inputs on my SVS SB-2000 Pro sub.  I plugged these directly into the line in on the LYR 2.  Line out on the LYR 2 goes to the sub.  When the headphones are connected, the inputs to the sub disconnect by themselves automatically.

The only manual step I have to do is turn off Output 1 on my preamp that feeds the balanced input to my power amp.

The HE-R9 can kick out a lot of bass that I like with the 60s and 70s music I enjoy.

Prior to all this, I did have a set of Bose BT ANC headphones.  You know what they say, 'no highs, no lows, must be Bose'.  Anyway, there is no comparison.  I was looking for a hi-res audiophile type solution for home and am satisfied with my start.  Knowing me, now I will want to collect headphones and an open-back design will be first on my list.

A lot of your opinions factored into the direction I went so my thanks goes out to your knowledge, experience and willingness to help.

@r042wal   Keep us posted on your journey.

Just came across this YouTube panel 'review' of Wireless / ANC headphones across price points. They do a good job covering general points and you may find the perspective on wireless vs wired, at the end of the video, informational.

ecoustics: Best Wireless Noise Cancelling Headphones 2022

Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions

ASR (Audio Science Review) has the best tests (measuring and listening) of headphones and headphone amps. I suggest you check them out before any purchases.

I have been using headphone systems for fifty years (the top of my head hurts from remembering the Koss headphones… ouch). I got really interested in high end headphone systems about twenty years ago. You can see my current headphone system under my user ID. I was listening to it just this morning and was simply stunned at the sound.

I have Bose QuietComfort and I love them on airplanes and while traveling… but they are cartoonish and simply terrible in terms of High-Fi. Blu-tooth sounds terrible.

First of all, I can assure you headphones can be absolutely stunning. They will not replace a regular audio system… but, as in your situation… wanting to let your partner sleep… they can be wonderful.

I would stick to wired for your test. Bluetooth is terrible. Once you know how wonderful they can be, then you can decide how to proceed.

Lots of high end preamps have headphone jacks… many sound simply terrible. They just throw them in, without thought. The best system is a separate system. But, you are not there yet. You are testing the waters. I would recommend a set of Focal headphones which are plugged into your Mac as a start. Focal are very efficient… so will sound pretty good.

To escalate, you probably want a good headphone amp… I recommend a Woo. Their tube headphone amps are incredible… warm, natural and dynamic… the more you pay the better they sound. I own a WA6, WA6SE, and WA5. I recommend any and all.

Headphone systems are exactly like main systems. Every component maters… and the sum of the parts equals the whole. The good thing is you can put together an incredible headphone system for a tenth of the price of a main system. Well, worth having both. For me, sitting in front of the fireplace while listening to music on my headphone system is wonderful.

I like rich base. Do open-back designs lack this? I have heard ’bright’ and a lack of base.

With the latest, better open-back designs I don’t think you’ll be at all disappointed at either end of the spectrum and whatever little you might give up will be more than made up for in benefits in other areas.. Just my take. BTW, The Anandas I recommended above I believe come with a generous trial period.

Could I put some RCA Y-splitters on this cable before it goes to the sub and then add a headphone amplifier? The amp would be close to where I would listen with headphones.

In theory I suppose this could work, although you’d obviously have to turn the subs off while listening to headphones, which isn’t a big deal. Another option, just to get started, would be to use a headphone cable extender and just use the headphone output from your Mac. Here’s one that might be long enough and doesn’t cost too much…

https://www.parts-express.com/Grado-15-ft.-Headphone-Extension-Cable-1-4-M-F-232-470

All depends on how much you wanna spend getting into this. Do I think running a y-splitter into a good separate headphone amp will sound better assuming you use a quality splitter? Yes, absolutely. But it will obviously cost quite a bit more going that route. If I’m you I might start with the $69 Grado extension cable into a good set of ‘phones and go from there until you get “the itch.” Plus it’ll give you some time to determine what sound characteristics you’re looking for in an amp and research what amp would work best. But if you wanna go bigger you’ll certainly get no argument from me. Last thought, if you’re concerned with audio, noise-cancelling and/or Bluetooth headphones should not be in your vocabulary. Period.

Last point, if you have a good store in your area it’d be best to go listen to some headphones if you can. But, that said, many online places offer return policies so definitely take advantage of this if you can.

@r042wal It seems you are ’new’ to headphones / headphone systems. I encourage you to keep the first steps simple.

Figure out which headphone(s) you like / enjoy / appreciate. The easiest way to do this is to start with a mainstream option. The advantage is the price point, ease of trial and return, up to date in terms of wireless specs/codecs, and a quick re-sale via a local site like craigslist. You can usually listen / audition at your local best buy or equivalent store.  Most of these options will come with ANC, but it can be turned off. ANC does come handy and you may wish you had the option when you realize so. They are also fully portable and will not restrict you to your audio room.

If you go wired, it moves from a bit more complicated to much more complicated. You are already trying to make the step of using aspects of your current system...which can be fraught with issues and a domino effect (typically not in a good way and in dollars spent) for someone just starting out.

There are mainstream options within your budget that are both wired and wireless.

The first sentence of your opening post points to "needing your wife to enjoy her sleep." Open back headphones are typically superior sonically but they do bleed sound.

There are tradeoffs all around. And it is not straightforward.

I’ll reiterate: since you are new to this start basic. Learn. Move on with a greater understanding and to better and wider options.

All of the major players in the mainstream wireless space have decent offerings within your budget, and with budget to spare.

If you want to dig deeper, go over to headfi.org

I like rich base.  Do open-back designs lack this?  I have heard 'bright' and a lack of base.  Thanks.

A couple of things come to mind.  First, I only plan to use these in my music room so why would I want noise-cancelling?  It seems the money spent on that feature could be better served elsewhere.

My preamp has two sets of outputs, RCA 1 / XLR and RCA 2 / XLR.  I have it configured so output 1 is XLR and not RCA so it feeds my power amp.

Output 2 is RCA and I have a 20' dual-RCA cable off of this going to my SVC-2000 Pro sub.  The sub is closer to my listening position.

Could I put some RCA Y-splitters on this cable before it goes to the sub and then add a headphone amplifier?  The amp would be close to where I would listen with headphones.  Thanks.

I can’t see that open-back headphones appeal to me. I am about 20’ away from my rig and although I would consider a cable, what’s the consensus on BT headphones or a combo BT / cabled?

If you can’t have any sound leaking out of the headphones and want a more closed-in and intimate soundstage then closed-back headphones can be fine, but if you prefer a more expansive soundstage and a more “out of the head” imaging/soundstage experience then open-back is the way to go. I’ll also add that most of the best headphones extant are open backed. Also, if you at all care about sound quality ditch the Bluetooth and spring for a cable. End of story. While I almost always recommend a headphone amp with any decent headphones, I’ve read McIntosh may design their headphone section differently and may be perfectly fine, especially just to get started. I’d check with Mac to see how your pre’s headphone section is configured, but eventually a $500+ headphone amp will likely provide meaningful improvements.

All that said, if I’m recommending headphones in the $500 range it’s the Hifiman Ananda with their newer Stealth magnets that’s being offered at a substantial discount right now — $599 down from $999. They’re also relatively easy to drive so your Mac shouldn’t have too hard a time with them, at least to get started. I own their $1600 Arya Stealths that are stellar and I’m gonna have to spend almost double to get a meaningful upgrade, and these Anandas incorporate much of the Arya’s technology. I can also help with a headphone cable if you decide to go this route. Anyway, that’d be my recommendation FWIW, and welcome to the wonderful world of headphones. Hope this helps, and best of luck.

https://store.hifiman.com/index.php/ananda-stealth-magnet-version-open-box.html?utm_source=storewebsite&utm_medium=landingpage&utm_campaign=FallSale20221014

My BT transmitter is something cheap off of Amazon.  It fits the 1/4" plug on my preamp through an adaptor.  There must be something better out there?

I have a DAC and a Matrix DCC.  Thanks .

The B&W lineup looks nice but it seems BT only, no combo.  Is this correct?

If you want something that is almost portable and decent sound check out the following DAC with headphone amp. (limited to digital only)

Matrix Mini-i Pro 3 Wireless Bluetooth DAC/Amp – Apos Audio

You can keep this next to your seating position and use the WiFI for streaming (it has BT, Ethernet, etc,,). WiFi is not the most reliable streaming option but when it works it is good. I had this unit and gave it to my friend since it was so easy to use, and my friend does not need the hassle of complicated setups.

Now if you want to step up to the very best quality sound you should explore RAAL-Requisite’s headphones. You can even use your 2-channel amp to drive them (not your preamp).

Since you want to ’test’ the waters, and given your opening post: go over ear, closed back, Bluetooth 5.3 (5.2 at least). BTW, the Bluetooth version needs to be supported both on your phone (for instance) and your headphone (to get the full benefit of the version).

If the pair you go with works to your satisfaction with BT, it will perform better wired. However, your need for a 20 foot long cable is fairly long and that length will require careful selection and audition (i.e. might pose pairing issues with a headphone amp and the type of headphone you choose) .

With BT you can skip the headphone amp and cabling (for now) while you are figuring out how to move forward.

Check out sites like Headfonia, Headphone.guru, Headphonics, etc. for recommendations and reviews.

B&W just released the PX8 (slightly above your current budget). The previous PX7 S2 is available well within your budget.