I bet it wouldn’t sound better (more accurate) than a SMSL SU-8 or Topping D50.
A DAC that crushes price vs. performance ratio
I felt strongly that I wanted to inform the Gon members about a new DAC that ranks with the very best on the market regarding performance, but costs around $2,000.00. The Lab12 DAC1 SE was compared to three reference level DACS that retail for over $12.000.00 in my review for hometheaterreview.com and was at least on the same level sonicly, if not better. This DAC from Greece is not just "good for the money" but competes with virtually anything on the market regardless of price!
For all the details about the Lab12 DAC1 SE performance and what other DACS it was compared to take a look at the review. If you are shopping/looking for a new digital front end to drive your system, you owe it to yourself to check this DAC out, unless you like to spend tons of more $ without getting better performance.
For all the details about the Lab12 DAC1 SE performance and what other DACS it was compared to take a look at the review. If you are shopping/looking for a new digital front end to drive your system, you owe it to yourself to check this DAC out, unless you like to spend tons of more $ without getting better performance.
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The 5670 is close enough to the 6922 that you can use an adapter and use a 6922 in the DAC instead of the 5670. That's what I do currently. The Reflektor '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields doesn't sound like a tube is in the DAC to me. With the other tubes I used, the sound erred in one direction, or there was something letting me know I had something in the signal path. But with these tubes, they just seen to get out of the way, and the music seems to come through. They're very clear and relatively transparent sounding. |
Hey lordcloud, Could you describe in more detail what you mean by, "doesn't sound like a tube at all". There are sonic differences between the same type of tube and different companies "house sound" (Mullards, Bugle Boys, Telefunkins, TungSol etc), but don't understand what your description means. MHDT Labs designer recommends his favorite NOS tubes to use his DACS. You can 396 or 5670 tubes to flavor the sound of their DACS to your personal taste. However, he does not mention the tube you are using in your DAC. |
@teajay I currently use a MHDT Labs Balanced Pagoda DAC that typically uses 5670 tubes. I had read though, that someone used a converter and used 6922 tubes and was loving it. So I got a converter and then started reading about the "best sounding" 6922, or one that sounded like it would work for the type of sound I wanted, and I came across the Reflektor '75 6N23P SWGP Silver Shields. Not sure if you've tried that tube in your dac, but in mine, it sounds much better than any other tube I've tried. It doesn't sound like a tube at all. I would recommend trying one and seeing what you think. It really works perfectly in my DAC. I'd also recommend trying a MHDT Labs Pagoda and seeing what you think. I also wish there was a company that was making high quality audiophile converters for these tubes. |
Just wanted to share an amazing experience with the LAB 12 DAC concerning rolling tubes. The type of tube the Lab 12 DAC normally uses is a 6922. When I rolled 6922 tubes it definitely improved the performance compared to the stock tube that Lab 12 ships with the unit. A NOS CCA Siemens gold pin was my favorite of all the 6922's I tried in my system. Now, because of a different piece of gear that I'm reviewing that uses a 396 type tube I learned that a 396 can be used in place of a 6922 by using a very inexpensive (around 20 dollars) tube socket adapter. The 396 that I rolled in is a WE396A D getter JW Military version which for my ears offers some of the best timbres/colors, transparency, 3D images, and overall space/air around individual players. These tubes are easy to obtain and are not very expensive (around 50 to 80 dollars). This tube modification took the LAB 12 DAC to even a higher level of musicality and the illusion of real music through my system. This change of tube type added what I would describe as a SET quality to the sound, rich timbres, "meat on the bones" images, and a liquidity that allows you to relax into the music. I would assume if your system is very warm and somewhat "slow" to begin with, this could be to much of a good thing. It always comes down to synergy with your other gear and of course personal taste. If you own the Lab 12 DAC you owe it to yourself to run this experiment, it costs pennies and gives a totally new sound with this DAC. |
For anyone interested in the Lab 12 Dac1 SE, here's a review https://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/04/lab12-dac1-special-edition-test-and.html |
There are not many stories of new stock tubes sounding better than their nos counterparts. Yes, it does happen, but it is more the exception than the rule. The same can be said, in my experience, for many stock parts in general. Unless you're talking about the upper echelon stuff (MSB Select Dac, TotalDac 12, Aries Ceral Kassandra, etc...). And even then, you can make them sound better with better/different parts. Most of the time, things are built to a price. Better parts usually mean better sound. Not always, but often enough to almost say always. |
@celander I had talked with the owner of Rogue Audio who makes excellent product at reasonable price. He know that some NOS tubes provide much better performance but could not provide those as stock tube with limited price of product. Thus it is upto each customer to try out NOS tube. It is same with high end fuse. |
@srosenberg Enjoy your stay in Vietnam! How long will you stay over there? I have a beautiful view of Sound and Bay also Olympic Mountains from my home. I may live here until I die especially I have a beautiful listening space here. @lordcloud My EMMLab Dac2 has balanced output which was one of the best Dac 8 years ago. After inserting SR Blue fuse in it, it sounds more fantastic with lot of details, nice timber, wide and deep soundstage. I have to wait 8 weeks to get Lab12, But it will be tough battle between those two excellent Dac. I guess that EMM will have more weight and Lab 12 may be more nuanced. One of them will have to go! I also considered getting Total Dac MK2 tube version. But Dac keep improving every year with new technology. So I decided upon trying out Lab12 since it will cost me less even if I decide to sell Lab 12 after losing battle to EMMLab Dac2. At this point, I am not sure which one of Dac will sound better in my system. |
@ srosenberg Nice and detailed review! I also plan to do tube rolling and put SR blue fuse in it. I placed an order for Lab12 3 days ago but I have to wait 8 weeks to get it. Are you still in Oregon or had left for Vietnam? I hope that you enjoy your stay in Vietnam. I am living in Northwest of Washington State, midway between Seattle and Vancouver, BC. Thomas |
Just got the Lab12 DAC1 SE installed and have been listening for a few hours... here are some early impressions. I've had several DACs over the last couple of years - Weiss, Aesthetix, Wyred, Metrum, Theta and most recently, PS Audio (I'm sure that I'm forgetting a few). Of the DACs I've owned previously, I would characterize them as more similar than different, variants of a theme really. Could I identify them in blind A-B testing? Sure, but the differences were not nearly as dramatic as changing speakers or preamp. The Lab 12 has a different sound signature, clearly a different breed from the DACs I've owned previously. It has an amazing combination of speed and detail, something I found with all my previous DACs, but it also has incredible dimensionality and slam. Timbre is spot on, vocals are nicely out in front, has a bit of warmth and sweetness without sounding overly thick or slow. It has much more 'you are there' feeling than my previous DACs... it honestly reminds me of everything I loved about my Atma-Sphere amps (I greatly simplified my system for an overseas assignment and did not bring any tube gear). Having gone back and reread TeaJay's review, I completely agree with his characterization of the DAC and find it as extraordinary as he does. To say I am impressed with the Lab12 DAC would be an understatement - of all the DACs I've owned, it's absolutely my favorite to date. Of course this means little in anyone else's room, but I'm extremely impressed. I did make a few changes from stock that should be noted - the stock tube was replaced with a 1950's Siemens 7308, fuse was replaced with one from Synergistic Research and I am using a WireWorld PC. I have no idea how these changes contribute to what I'm hearing, as I never listened to the unit in it's stock configuration. Like anything in this hobby, YMMV... |
@solo8008 https://www.head-fi.org/threads/lite-dac-83-versus-audio-gd-ref-7-8-9.513759/ It is interesting. Good things are coming from China. If I were reviewer, I would have a chance to audition GD 7,8 I am curious how do they sound. |
Let me add Lite Audio DAC-83 in this list , Fully discrete 1704UK Burr Brown R2R build like tank with massive external power supply , I have Denafrips Pontus and L.K.S. Audio MH-DA004 Dual ES9038PRO , DAC-83 run Circles around these DACS in every aspect , more open, imaging , well balance top to bottom with hefty dynamic Bass. if you lucky may find one used under $1K . |
I had received last week an Email from a GON member regarding his experience with the LAB 12 DAC. His experience of it was, " I've tried 4 DACS in the past 2 months and the LAB 12 is definitely my favorite." I asked him if he would be willing to share more information about what DACs he had auditioned compared to the LAB 12 and share on this thread. He said he would when he gets back from traveling this week. Hope, he does, I'm glad he likes the Lab 12, but am very interested what other types of DACs he compared it to. |
All non-oversampling designs suffer from sinus(x)/s loss resulting in more than 3dB reduction at 20kHz. |
Hey keithtexas, I was the first American reviewer to have the fun to review the Lab12-SE DAC. There were a few, including the monoandstereo piece, European reviews that were raves about the DACs performance. I believe that Lab12 has done subtle changes since the DAC got on the market. However, you would have to contact them for the details on this. |
I enjoyed teejay’s review as I’m considering DACs in the $2K range. But I’m confused. Is this the same DAC reviewed in monoandstereo 5 years ago (2013)? https://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/04/lab12-dac1-special-edition-test-and.html |
Language is always difficult. And the language descriptors used in hi-end audio is a lexicon dating back to at least J. Gordon Holt of Stereophile days. I seem to recall having or seeing such a compilation back in the 1980’s. Perhaps @teajay has seen such a compilation, too. @teajay adequately addressed a question I asked about the sonic differences of the stock tube and the exchanged Siemens tube in the DAC of his review. It sounds like a DAC worth auditioning. |
Hey simna, To answer your two questions: 1) As I stated in my review when you go from the stock tube to something like the NOS CCA Siemens tube you get across the sonic board improvement (transparency, soundstaging/air around instruments, improved tonality/color density, dynamics and more liquidity/ease). 2) I use the term "organic" to mean that that piece of gear, or and overall system, sounds less like "mechanical/electric" device and more like the illusion of music. I also use the term "HiFi-ish" in the same breath, meaning it sounds like a great sound system, but not like natural music. |
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If my take is correct about simna's experience with the Lab 12, "makes me wanna keep listening", I think it's mainly a thumbs up perspective. I do not experience a loss of leading edge focus, which I think simna means when he refers to "edge" on certain music. A lot of digital sounds somewhat "hard" because the leading edge of the harmonic is "razor sharp" compared to a more natural presentation that listeners often refer to as having an analog quality. Think metal/ceramic vs silk dome tweeters. However, my hunch is that if he tube rolled in brands like Mazda/Telefunken/Seimens he would get more of a "harder" sound that he is looking for. Redphu72, if you contact Mike Kay, Audio Archon, he can provide you the information you are seeking. He is the North American retailer for Lab 12 gear.. |
@ facten Hej I have compared Lab12 with my present DAC, Hegel HD12, which was crushed in every respect. Except for on thing; ”edge”. Bad productions will gain from the ”politeness” in Lab12 but I feel that rough (ment to be ”dirty sounding”) rock and blues records sounds like they lack a little ”edge” (don’t know the correct expression in English, hope you understand). They don`t sound as ”dirty” as I expert them to. Good recordings sounds very good, but even there I can feel that I lack a little ”edge”. I don`t know how many hours the unit has got to burn in. Maybe the sound will change after some more hours, but I will be surprised if the sound will ”turn harder”. For the record; I have also compared Lab12 with Line Magnetic, CD-player, LM-515. LM-515 sounded too sweet, too bass heavy, veiled and with much less ”air” between the instruments. So (IMHO) the Lab12 DAC1 SE sounds homogeneous and well balanced, warm (not negatively warm), musical (makes me wanna keep on listening), big airy soundstage, but is a little too ”polite”. My listening was made with my BeyerDynamic T1 headphones and Feliks Audio Elise headphone amp (tubes, upgraded). Kimber Silver Streak between DAC/CD-player and headphone amp. You have to excuse my bad English. Sorry. |
simna here's his response from earlier within this thread to that question " All the details regarding how the DAC sounded/performed presented in the review apply to Lab12 with the stock tubes and the Siemens. 3) Yes, with the Siemens you get a little more of an "organic" sound then with the stock tubes, but either way the DAC sounds wonderful." simna, what are your impressions of this DAC with the stock tubes? |
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I am late to this discussion as I wasn't aware of it until today or I would have joined it much earlier. I may be wrong but I think Teejay is an audiophile first and a critic second. As an audiophile he enjoys sharing his insights on gear that punches well above it's price point. As a critic, he has access to a lot more equipment then most of us do. He was spot on with the Tekton Design speakers so when he raves about something ; I listen. As for retailers joining discussions, I have no problem with them contributing as long as they state that they sell audio gear and if a discussion is about a product they sell, they should inform us. I have seen numerous very informative postings by retailers and look forward to reading more in the future. |
