I have looked for a western replacement for the 6H30, but I believe the 6DJ8, 6922 or 7308 would get destroyed because if the high voltage.
this is for a hybrid amp, Pathos Heritage. When I bought the amp, I was told that the voltage was low enough for 6DJ8, 6922 or 7308 but now I am being told otherwise.
I just have no ears for the 6H30s and I want to get them out of my amp if at all possible.
Had a bit of a hissy fit/kerfuffle with Kevin Deal years ago (here I think), but we were both under "extreme family matter issues/pressure" @ the time so I'm over it, and also not blameless in the altercation.
Anyway, although I assume that you did not purchase the amp from him, you might direct your 6n6p query to him (Kevin Deal).
He's seems to be knowledgable about the lines that he carries, especially so for tube based gear as he also supplies aftermarket tubes for them.
The 12ax7 is used for input/gain and wonder if the 6h30 is somehow used as a driver for the SS amp section,
you are spot on, the X7 has a max gain of around 100 , runs at low current, (us around 1mA) and therefore has very poor driving ability, the 6H30 has a theoretical gain of around 16 and runs at a much higher current (us 15+mA), conferring excellent driving ability. It may even be configured in a cathode follower configuration, which sacrifices gain (only 0.9) for even greater grunt.. The max power dissipation of the 6H30 and 6N6P is 8watts both plates driven for both tubes, so I wouldn‘t be concerned about catastrophic failure if you made a substitution. The plate curves are somewhat different though, and the biasing would not be optimal, although the outcome might sound fine (you might still be in a fairly linear area of the plate curves).
A schematic would be great, and I would really pressure the manufacturer to get one.
to be honest, if it is a nice, expensive piece of tube gear, and the manufacturer or dealer won't give straight answers about how the tubes work in the circuit, and speak to reasonable substitutes (or lack thereof), it would be enough for me to move on to something else
The 12ax7 is used for input/gain and wonder if the 6h30 is somehow used as a driver for the SS amp section, otherwise I don't understand why it's even there.
If it's run @ a lower bias than spec'd for the tube, then 6n6p may be a candidate as others have used it successfully as a sub in DAC's and some preamps in which the the 6h30 is ran @ lower values.
Also confused as to why the manufacturer cannot answer (what would seem to me) a simple query.
@mulveling or the Mule as i have taken to calling him has a LOT of tube knowlege…in addition to others this very informative and civil thread - thanks to all…tuberolling is like winetasting…..
Jim
😂
If necessary I could live for a good while just by selling off extra gear, but it would be like cutting off a piece of flesh each time. Inevitably I’ll decide I NEED something right after I just sold it.
And tuberolling is very much like winetasting! Sometimes I find that I’m just looking for a change. A tuberoll can easily impart that, but its positive effect might not last more than a few days before wanting A DIFFERENT change. That can be fun at first but it gets old. If you don’t find yourself settling down on a tube set, it’s probably best to re-examine the bigger component matches and setup.
” If anything the gold pins make the sound slightly warmer by a fraction of a percent, but it’s really splitting hairs.“
My findings also in the last ARC gear incumbent in my system REF 10 into REF 250SE altho the Electro Harmonix that I tried were Cryo’d as well as gold plated pins.
Were I to rate the variants with NOS DR’s as a 10 imho
@mulvelingor the Mule as i have taken to calling him has a LOT of tube knowlege…in addition to others this very informative and civil thread - thanks to all…tuberolling is like winetasting…..
@mulveling I went to Kevin’s site and did not see a video where he talks about 6H30s. Would you kindly share the link?
It’s not from a video. It’s Kevin’s written description under his sales page for Sovtek 6H30 tubes:
There are two types of 6H30 tubes currently being produced. The Sovtek brand which have the chrome pins (listed here), and the Electro Harmonix Gold pin. They are the same tube from the same factory. Don’t get your panties in a bunch over which is better, as the gold plating is laid over the chrome plating. They are both terrific. What is most important is how they test
I’ve been buying 6H30 tubes from Upscale for years, both kinds, and that description has been up for a while. If anything the gold pins make the sound slightly warmer by a fraction of a percent, but it’s really splitting hairs. So, Kevin is right-on on this one.
i am lost all of a sudden
op was asking for 6h30 equivalents for a pathos unit
how come we are talking about 12ax7’s now?
It looks like OP also has an input slot that uses 12ax7. I don’t know if it’s in the same Pathos unit or elsewhere. I really like that mix - 6H30 for clean line stage (or driver) slots, and 12ax7 for MM phono stage gain. That affords both lots of rolling opportunities and some classic tube sound via 12ax7, while imparting some of the great clarity & linearity of the 6H30. 12ax7 can also be a great input tube, but it can impart a LOT of gain.
The Mazda silver plate 12ax7 indeed has a bit of extra "zing" on top, but it’s not analytical nor sterile like a lot of tubes with a hot top end. It has a beautiful, liquid midrange and incredible bass. Gobs of detail and dynamics. Clarity for days (maybe so the French could call in their surrender loud and clear? 😂). But you DO need to avoid the 5751 variant of this tube - that’s just outright BRIGHT! Ugh, I got suckered into buying that one.
Hello @jjss49some here suggested to also change the other tubes in the Heritage, and I will try different tubes there.
I have some EH gold pins and DR coming.
This weekend match a few Telefunken that my dad bought many many years ago, and I am shipping them to USA so a colleague can swap the ones that came with the amp and power on the Heritage for a week or so to bring to life the tubes.
@mulvelingI went to Kevin's site and did not see a video where he talks about 6H30s. Would you kindly share the link?
The Mazda silver plates are absolutely amazing, and the best 12ax7 I've ever heard as long as you're not depending on this 12ax7 to be a source of warmth.
I have a few amps/preamps I could use these so it will be fun.
As for the DR, I am in touch with a French dealer and he has some so I will probably get one pair and see if I like them, he will put on hold another for 30 days so I can a pair for replacement.
If you have a specific 12AX7 you love, I would love to hear.
6h30 is a very strong horse,and very difficult to ride in the pre.
Once they are going to ride, doesn't not say they can ride good.
Very few companies have the ability to ride this strong horse in the pre. However, 6h30 in the power amplifier as drive tube is very good as itself is so strong.
@pesky_wabbitsaid "It might suit Victor’s business interests to do the opposite. Who knows ?"
I think when Victor had the company, the DR variant was more readily obtainable. He had a pretty good stash too. (My most recent NOS quad of DR 6h30s were originally supplied by him to a former BAT owner).
I was a long time ARC owner/user from the early '70s until around 1990. I liked the brand, the fact that they delivered modern tube sound and supported it. The newer stuff is different and in some ways better but it is not euphonic at all. In fact, it is the perfect example of how modern tube designs and good solid state have converged.
The Veloce I use is an oddball and sadly, no longer marketed although Vytas, the designer, has supported it. It really pronounces the difference among the types of 6h30. His prior version, which I heard in my system and did not feel compelled to buy, used a combination of 12ax7 and 12au7. I gather than Vytas found the 6h30 better -- though he certainly didn't offer it with DR tubes. If ARC sounds good with the Sovtek or EH, that's a bonus. Unfortunately I can hear a marked difference with the vintage DR in my system- more ambience, more body, more air. Perhaps that's a shortcoming of the design, depending as it does on a now rare tube.
We are in a funny place as tube audiophiles, given that the old classic tubes are very hard to find as true never used NOS. I don't want to go on my usual rant about "pulls" but will tell you that having used many so-called NOS Tele 12ax7s in my Lamm ML2, the amps are far more stable in terms of bias using truly never used old 12ax7s (which I found after a wait and/or paying the tariff for true NOS).
In the ARC Reference 6, they sound neither exactly like traditional tubes nor solid-state, but actually sound more "right" than either (including excellent tubes like 6SN7 and 6922).
As I said, I think AR have found a way of voicing their amps to sound fine without resorting to megabuck NOS variants of the 6H30. It would be marketing suicide if they produced amps which sounded like cr** unless the supplied tubes were replaced with vintage candy.
It might suit Victor’s business interests to do the opposite. Who knows ?
Personally I think the 6h30 is a fantastic tube. In the ARC Reference 6, they sound neither exactly like traditional tubes nor solid-state, but actually sound more "right" than either (including excellent tubes like 6SN7 and 6922). Rogue Audio’s old top 6h30 preamps, Athena and Hera, have some similar sonic qualities to the Ref 6, just not as good overall. If I heard a 6h30 based component that didn’t sound excellent, my inclination would be that the stuff around the tubes is at fault. But perhaps I am just so positively biased towards this tube. I think it’s great!
I don’t have experience with the DR version, but have used sets of both the modern Sovtek and EH gold pins over the years - they’re extremely close in sound, and like Kevin of Upscale advises, "don’t stress over the difference". If you don’t like your gear with one version, you probably won’t like it with the other. If I have to order a replacement set tomorrow, it's literally 50/50 which I'll choose.
When a relay switches and agitates a 6h30 it makes a "ping-tassshhhhhhhhh" sound like no other tube, that feels like audiophile home to me 😂
I have some Millard Blackburn AX-7 60’s UK product I got from Brent, very sweet sound in my system. Definitely farther back in hall vs Tele or Amperex…
My REF5se is anything but bleached :-) … well at least to my ears…
I’ve gone down the 6H30 my replacement road. The Reflector is about the only vintage option - but the prices are astronomical and matched tubes are scarce. I don’t know your amp specifically, but anything with a 6H30 is not a great tube rollers amp.
Understand that you have a plentiful supply of the Telefunken 803s's, but they are brighter sounding (less warm) than the 12ax7's I suggested.
As you are limited to only trying the DR 6h30 (or "perhaps" the 6n6p) you should be able to warm up the sound by using different input/12ax7 tubes.
If you are going to contact Brent Jessee ask him about warmer sounding 12ax7's.
This said, I've yet to hear a 6h30 based preamp that I cared for though I have not auditioned contemporary models.
Years ago I compared both ARC and BAT 6922 based preamplifiers to there "then" new 6h30 based preamplifiers and the latter for both companies were bright and bleached compared to their previous 6922 based versions.
The new BAT was a bit warmer than the ARC, but neither were "musically satisfying" to my taste.
Anyway, you have the option of trying numerous 12ax7's, which is not the case with the 6h30.
Also, the holy grail type (12ax7 in this case) may not be the best/desired sound for you, which Jessee (or any good tube dealer) should be able to help you with.
In my meager system my various/favorite 2a3/12au7/12at7 tubes vary from cheap as chips (even in the current market) to more than I paid for our latest used Honda Civic (Visseaux engraved base 2a3's would cost more).
actually you don‘t replace sockets at all. You just re-wire them. Which is entirely reversible, if you employ a good tech who knows how to solder/desolder neatly and quickly.
@pesky_wabbit the adapter route would not work because the very tight space in the tube sockets. the tubes are 3/4 of the way down the chassis. The last thing I want is to start replacing sockets in the amp...😶
Pesky, while the specs look close, the 5687 is not pin compatible with tbe 6H30
I‘m pretty sure you can get adapters though. I know there were ones that let you use 6N6Ps in 5687 apps. If not, it‘s pretty easy to make yr own. I never let pinouts stand in the way of subbing - it‘s too limiting: if it works and I‘m happy I just re-wire the socket. Easy.
As an aside, AR seem to have voiced their latest amps to sound pretty decent with readily available examples of the 6H30. I don‘t think they would have made a commitment to this tube if their amps only sounded good when fettled with very costly unobtainium variants.
@dekay I have the Telefunken ECC803S-diamond mark-gold-pins, which are magic, I just checked and I have over 40! not 20 as I thought. My father was a tube madman so the Heritage will get a pair of them in the input sockets.
The thing I want is to get the Sovtek replaced for something that sounds better and it appears to be that I can either get the DRs, for which I have yet to find a reputable dealer, of go with Upscale
the question would be are the Electro-Harmonix 6H30Pi Gold Pin superior to the sovtek? I know they are from the same factory
If you must go western, the 5687 is far closer to the 6H30 than the 6DJ8 family of tubes and would be my personal preference. J8‘s will burn up in no time at anything like the bias h30‘s generally run at. Again I have used these in my builds, and in the right application they are a fine tube.
From the jacmusic site:
It is found in many amplifiers, such as: Audio Note M3, Manley Jumbo Shrimp,Ayon CD player, Audio Note DAC 5 Signature and Audio Note amp kits, M5 preamp, M9, KR Enterprise 32BSI integrated SET amp, Modwright 9.0 and Modwright Sony and Denon modded CD players, Modwright Sony NS999ES CD player, Opera Audio Consonance Cyber 800, Zanden, Manley amps, LUX 300B amp,Kondo M1000, Artemis Labs linestage, Emotive Audio Sira, Ray Samuels B52 and Raptor, Audio Tekne TFM-9412, Sonic Frontiers Power 2 Amps, Audio Experience BALANCED A2 preamp (YS-AUDIO, HONG KONG), Ongaku, Audio Note, New Audio Frontiers Legend II preamp, Loth X JI300,Audio Thrills, Mastersound, Sophia Electric KT88 Tube Amplifier, Icon Audio PS3 phono power supply, Almarro.
I think the difference depends on the vintage of the DR tube as well as the circuit in which it is used. My line stage, a Veloce, uses the 6h30. When I bought it new, I got NOS DR Reflectors and ran them for over 5 years-- I heard a noise in one channel and eventually traced it down-- it was not one of those tubes (thankfully, I kept them). Using the Electro-Harmonix version as a stop gap, the system sounded lifeless, sterile, no ambience or air. I was told the Sovtek is more punchy sounding but still the same "quality" as the E-H compared to the DR. Found a replacement quad of the DRs- from '77 if memory serves. Never used. Back in business.
I've seen comments by others using ARC equipment that using the recherché DR variant made little difference.
Not an easy tube to find, particularly from most tube dealers we rely on; Andy did not want to even talk about that tube when I last spoke to him about it.
It is a big negative in my estimation that the rolling options for this tube type seem to be so limited. I am no tube guru, so have no idea of a direct equivalent. Interested to learn what you find.
I am far from a tube expert. But I have a CJ preamp which uses the 6H30P. I have been told that there are no replacements for that tube. So, indeed, if one is available, I'd love to know about it. I've also read that the DR's offer a subtle change but nothing drastic.I'd hate to pay $400 or more to find out I got $2 worth of improvement.
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