@vusi_khumalo
Thanks. Yes you nailed it. Before I do anything else I will be doing the power tube upgrade. Obviously you know what that entails. For those who don’t ARC used 3 power tubes in the PH7 (prob other models as well). What they found out is that the 3 tubes wear unevenly which causes/could cause degradation in SQ. To resolve this they came up with an upgrade to replace the 3 tubes with a single rectifier tube that is supposed to A. Resolve that problem B improves SQ overall. So I’m really looking forward to that mod. I’m on a waiting list about 7 deep because ARC was only doing warranty work during covid but they are now taking in some upgrades and service work. It must be quite involved because they would not give me permission to have my local tube gear guy get the plans/schematics and the upgrade kit for this mod. So I’m waiting. It’s all good tho. Sometimes patience pays off. |
Well done, the Philips are very close to top of the hill!
Good that you will first do the PSU/rectifier before you do more rolling, especially because rolling rectifiers is another adventure!
I wouldn't worry about Siemens, I don't believe they can beat what you have in an ARC phonostage. Maybe if we were talking DACs or a Preamp that handles a digital source.
Yes the Teles are better than Philips in an ARC phono but also sound slightly cooler which you might not like.
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Upscale sells tubes of the highest quality. My go to sellers are Brent Jessee and Andy at Vintage Tube Services. They sell high grade tubes and offer a return policy, which is great for a tube roller such as myself.
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@barnettk, yes they used the same tooling in manufacturing, but they have sonic differences as all Philips tubes made around the world. When having the chance make the comparison yourself, you may find that you prefer more one from another, but as i said they are both good tubes, so you cannot go wrong with either of them. Upscale is doing a very good job and you do not have to change vendor since you are pleased with them, i would not do it either.
Happy tube hunting.
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Amperex tubes manufactured in the Heerlen plant were not all the same. The PQ series were different than the Bugle Boys as were the rare pinched waist tubes. From Brent Jessee: E88CC / 6922 Amperex Holland made white PQ type, white label gold pins.
These have been rated by audiophiles as as good if not better than the famous Amperex, and rivalling the famed Amperex 7308 white label tubes! Most are Philips SQ or Amperex PQ labels. Some are labelled for Mullard, Philips, Dario, RTC, Valvo or other brands, but all have the Philips Heerlen Holland factory code. Holland tubes marked with the Bugle Boy logo were 6DJ8 type, no gold pins. Later 6DJ8 production tubes with white or orange labels were the same tooling as the Bugle Boy. Bugle Boys from Holland were the same tube as the Philips Mini Watt. An Amperex PQ 6DJ8, 6922, 7308 were the same tube measured to the same tolerances as a Philips SQ. |
@petg60
according to Kevin Deal they are the same components and they sound the same just assembled in different factories. I trust Kevin. Not saying I disagree with you on anything you said. In regards to testing Upscale audio does test each tube before its released and they provide you with the conductance value for each Triode, and they test them for noise. These are very quiet at least to my ears, and they sound amazing. Also I have only dealt with Upscale for all my tubes and I trust them as stated so for me buying them from anyone else that I dont know is out of the question at least until my experience changes. Im sure that there are other places to buy from but I kinda tend to stick with the relationships I have already forged. |
@barnettk, you will be amazed of the sound difference between a Holland E88CC and a 6922 USA, same year, both made with sane tooling.
For sure both are good tubes but my preference are the Dutch ones for a single reason. They do not become noisy so quickly compared to their USA cousins.
@jjss49 i totally agree that tubes are not created equally and testing is required for all these old tubes. |
the key to understanding tube production and sales is to understand that there were unavoidable and significant variances in how the innards of any tube (but especially a small signal tube) were assembled, thus affecting their performance ... (of course back in those days, vacuum tubes were absolutely essential components in equipment much more important than hifi gear making music... so great pains were taken to make good ones with pure materials and extremely careful assembly)
thus it was the screening and testing of tubes that made all the difference...that is why tubes were graded and sorted and branded/marked as such, many many portions of lots were rejected or sold off brand
as time has passed, 40-50-60 years go by, old tube supply doesn’t expand (garage and dusty warehouse finds are possible, but so rare nowadays), yet tubes are in use every day, thus making the need to test, confirm function, quietness etc etc is as important as ever if one is going to spend some real money on ’nos’ or used old stock tubes |
Totally agree. I was not saying the “sq” designated where they were made. I was abbreviating the tube name in that post. Sorry for the confusion. The one poster recommended I go out and buy the “Amprex tube ASAP”. My point was that the Amprex 6922 and the Phillips SQ are the same tube of which I have already purchased.
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Philips had factories everywhere.
Holland made tubes, were branded as Philips, Philips Miniwatt, Amperex, Dario, RT, Mazda...and having the triangle sign etched at bottom of tube, including tube type and manufacturing dates, noted that they were manufactured at Heerlen factory in Holland. All were the same tube, having the SQ logo or not. In fact some Holland made ones, were branded Amperex, had the PQ logo, that was used for the ones made in USA and having the * sign etched instead.
India made tubes under licence for Mullard, BEL factory same tooling, different etched codes.
So to be sure always check what the etched codes are for finding out which factory they were coming from. |
the ’sq’ designation on old stock philips/amperex tubes was a labelling signifying highly screened tubes, with linear, strong gain and quietness of operation -- sq stands for ’special quality’, thus sold as premium tubes
it is NOT a location of manufacture designation... |
I think that is the same tube as the Phillips SQ if Im not mistaken. Except for the fact that the Amprex NOS is make in Holland and the SQ is assembled in India. |
NOS AMPEREX 6922 jump on them asap. |
Wanted to report back on the new tubes.
To catch you up I bought a quad set of the Phillips SQ and I have now been listening to them for 5 days now and have prob put about 30 hours of actual listening time with at least 50 hours of the tubes running. They sounded great the first day but they are really starting to sing now. Extremely musical. They really made a huge difference on the top with with a very natural and pronounced midrange. Noting is over cooked across the entire frequency range. I have listened to everything from Miles to Zeppelin with zero fatigue. Each Day they seem to get better and better. Either that or I’m just getting used to them. Either way I’m extremely pleased with the SQ. The soundstage is wide and deep and I am hearing a bit more airiness on songs I’m most familiar with. I’m trying not to be very long winded here but I rally could go on and on. I have to say for sure these are an improvement over the Eleectro-Harmonix that came OEM with the phono pre. I’m anticipating that with another 50 hours of play they should be even better and I’m looking forward to that.
So thanks for all the recommendations guys. I may try a different set later. Maybe the Siemens A-Frames. I don’t see myself feeling groggy enough to spend the coin on the Telefinken CCa’s at $550/tube but you just never know lol. We will see. For now I’m planning on enjoying these for a while. Oh and by the way I still need to do the rectifier upgrade as soon as ARC calls me. I’m on the waiting list foe that which should also be a significant improvement.
Thanks again
Till next time |
Oh by the way. Nevermindedon my question. Got the answer from ARC. |
Of the many I tried in my Manley Chinook phonostage, Mazda 7308 are my favorite. Most complete sounding. Extended highs, full rich bass and transparent midrange.
Got them from Brent Jesse |
So here is my question. Should I stagger these for example:
socket 1 (12000-10000)
socket 2 (12000=10500)
socket 3 (12000-10000)
socket 4 (12000-10500)
or sockets 1&2 (12000-10000)
sockets 3&4 (12000-105000)
oh and correction on the post above that should read 12000, not 1200.
not sure if it matters or not. |
ratings as such:
2 tubes t1=1200 t2=10000
2 tubes t1=1200 t2=10500
so two sets of 2 perfectly matched
not to shabby at all |
New tubes have arrived! WOW that was fast. I just ordered them on Wed. Anyway just in time for the weekend. |
@rodman99999
will do. Thanks. |
@barnettk- btw: The reason I like to suggest that particular 6922 variant comparison; the things/aspects/sense of realism, that the author listens to and for, precisely mirror my own. By the time I heard about that one year (1975) run of the Russian Grail, the prices were nuts. As happy as I've been, with my sets of the early Sixties, grey shield, Siemens CCa and E188CC, gold pins: I've no regrets. Glad I bought them all, way back when the prices weren't as salty (25+ years) Here's a good treatise, on why the CCa designated tubes are as good as they are: https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SH%2DCCA%2D1963 Keep in mind, as you read that; it's all about QUIET, in a phono stage. |
@rodman99999
Gotcha. No worries. I was just covering both bases. I did not take it the wrong way even if it was directed at me. Good conversation.
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@barnettk- Yes (rhetorical, indeed)! That post was meant for, though I never addressed it to, lewm (my bad). |
"What’s the problem with seeking the best obtainable reproduction, via EVERY available resource?"
Im taking that as a rhetorical question. Just in case it was a direct question I never said I did not agree with the statement. I am saying one step at a time. I would consider something like that out at some point now that its been brought up. Good point and I appreciate it very much. |
I was blessed, we had 5 zip codes and a lot of frequent flier miles over the globe- took some risks and had a wonderful career.
I think the wine analogy is spot on, we serve DAVIS Family as our “ house “ Red. IF the kind posters of this thread find themselves in So Cal or Seattle, stop by with tubes to roil !!!
finally, I don’t disagree that hot ridding a circuit with high end parts can yield stunning results.... just make sure the signal in that circuit can form those big capacitors.... |
"In my opinion, a few judicious changes to a circuit or an upgrade in coupling capacitors, can make a far greater difference." Not everyone can solder/mod their own gear. I don't own a piece of gear, that hasn't been upgraded and have also upgraded numerous customer pieces. I've not yet found a piece of tubed equipment, that didn't respond even more obviously (sound even MORE like the real thing), with the highest-echelon tubes, after having it's circuitry upgraded. It's been my experience, over the past 50+ years: improvements are cumulative. What's the problem with seeking the best obtainable reproduction, via EVERY available resource?
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@tomic601
30 years. wow thats a long time to work period, and a blessing. Working for one company for 30 years is an achievement. You should be happy to be able to claim that. |
@lewm
"
This dialog could be superimposed on a discussion of fine wines, just by changing a few words. I think the effects of tube rolling are way overblown, although "real" in the eye of the beholder. In my opinion, a few judicious changes to a circuit or an upgrade in coupling capacitors, can make a far greater difference"
I suppose you are correct. However that's not something I can do myself, and every time I want to upgrade or roll again my gear has to go to the shop, wait for weeks to get it back, etc etc. With tubes I can make a change anytime I want. Now if I were an EE and could do that myself then maybe but for me its more about convivence plus its fun rolling tubes and experimenting. :) |
@
mijostyn4
"
I think you meant 0.4 and 0.5 mV."
Yes you would be correct that is exactly what I meant. I actually thought about that last night as i lay in bed and meant to put out a correction. I realize that people read these forums for accurate info and I did intend to correct that statement but you beat me to it.
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Where are you getting the Phillips from. Are they tested and graded?"
I by all my tube from upscale audio, and yes they are tested and matched. they provide the T rating on each tube.
These shipped yesterday. I think I am also going to give the siemens a try for comparison as well.
Thanks
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This dialog could be superimposed on a discussion of fine wines, just by changing a few words. I think the effects of tube rolling are way overblown, although "real" in the eye of the beholder. In my opinion, a few judicious changes to a circuit or an upgrade in coupling capacitors, can make a far greater difference.
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Ya, I spent thirty great years at Boeing... we did have an affinity for HP and Tektronix... had our own Cray and cert / calibration labs.., etc
do some research on RAM tube testing/matching... for grading current production I doubt anyone affordable does better...
maybe Andy at Vintage Tube... but he “ hates “
Russian tubes...
I really enjoy the civility and expertise in this thread of music lovers :-))))) my best to all |
barnettk, I think you meant 0.4 and 0.5 mV. With 57dB you would need to install transformers for tubes 0.2 mv or less. ARC can be strange that way. 57 dB is too much gain for most high output cartridges but not enough for all MC cartridges. My PH3 SE has 54 dB. It is quiet enough for a cartridge with 0.5 mV output but it really sings with high output cartridges in the 3 mV region. I have a Soundsmith "Voice" ready to go as soon as Sota gets to building my turntable. I do have Sowter transformers installed inside the PH3 for low impedance MC cartridges but right now I'm into high output cartridges which IMHO are a much better value and in some ways better than MC cartridges. You could also install transformers in the PH7. In the future I intend on getting a current mode phono stage and a very low impedance MC cartridge. My understanding is that this combination results in a very dynamic sound challenging the high output cartridges in that regard.
Where are you getting the Phillips from. Are they tested and graded?
I generally only use RAM Labs and Upscale Audio because they test and grade all their tubes which I find very reassuring. I have always purchased the highest grades and have always gotten wonderful tubes.
Very important for phono stages! |
Recommend that you follow the advise of petg60. I followed that exact advice that he provided to me in this thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/1975-new-reflektor-6n23p-swgp-or-siemens-amperex-telefunken-c...The Voskhods absolutely embarrassed the $600 pair of Upscale Audio matched 1963 Siemens E188CC that had theretofore defeated all challengers...many of which have been mentioned in this thread. Should you be wise enough to follow petg60's advice, I predict that you will find yourself toasting Lagavulin on the rocks...or similar...to him, as did I...while enjoying the most musical presentation you've ever heard through the gear that your wise adherence to his advice benefitted from. |
Will definitely inquire about it for sure. |
Good luck!!! Quietest, most musical tubes I ever used in my ARC. |
@terry9
It’s funny I never even thought to see if I can find any of those tubes in a lab someplace. Been at the company for 25 years and into home Audio long before that and never even crossed my mind to see what’s available. Lol. Too funny. |
@barnettk
H/P - what a legacy. Most of my test equipment is H/P from the 70's and 80's; lovely feel, there's a sensual component to using equipment that good. One of my colleagues put it best after the V-P personally blew up a prototype, saying, "Now I understand why Boeing uses H/P. They want to be in business next year."
Don't know if I'd ever part with those 6922's though. I think I got the last sleeve from the early sixties, must have been 20 years ago, cost me $100 a piece back then. |
@fsonicsmith
I do understand. Manley makes some of the best sounding gear in its price point and beyond. I had the pleasure of hearing a system with the Chinook phono pre and it was impressive. |
@terry9
Interesting comments since I work for HP. Been there since 1996 😀. Yeah Bill and Dave did it right in regards to everything in those days. Can’t argue that. However if you want to unload those tubes let me know. |
I would recommend the valvo 6922 6dj8 tubes from the fifties they are my holy grail of 6922 tubes and they are made to a higher standard than all the other variants. They sound absolutely like real music.
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Back in the day, when the 6922 was in flower, there was an electronics company that made the best equipment in the world, by a long shot. That was Hewlett Packard, making the test equipment that put the men on the moon.
To run the very best test equipment required the quietest, most linear tubes obtainable. H/P did this by selecting tubes from manufacturers like Amperex and Telefunken, and charging the earth for their selected tubes. Stories back in the day told of co-op students testing a box of 144 tubes like Amperex SQ 6922's, putting the H/P stencil on 3 or so, and putting the rest in the dumpster.
But no-one remembers these stories now, or why they were credible. Bottom line is this: H/P branded tubes command no premium, in spite of being the best in the world, period. The very best were selected by Telefunken for H/P to H/P standards.
I have a sleeve of them, three still with the original Telefunken AND H/P seals. And you can't have 'em. |
@barnettk
I would never let go of my Steelhead.
Are there better? Without a doubt. Is there anything more enjoyable in my system? I don't think so.
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@fsonicsmith
The M-Steelhead eh. Now there’s a Manley mans piece of gear there my friend.. Tell me how much you like it. |
@lowrider57
lol. It’s all good. I knew what you meant lol. |
Oops, you did say that's what you were using. My bad. |
Also these are being used in a phono stage and not a main pre so maybe there is a difference. |
@lowrider57
Actually I think that what came OEM in my ARC. I don’t push it that hard so I have never experienced the same think you have. I think it’s a good sounding tube tho. Just a little relaxed on the top, and midrange for me. |
These are much more reasonable https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/electro-harmonix-6922-gold-pin?variant=29...They are the gold pin Electro-Harmonix. I have the "Kevin’s Stash" grade and they have a very clean top end and are also extremely quiet. Sorry, but I’ll have to disagree about these tubes. I recently bought a pair and the highs don’t hold up when pushed. My pair sounded artificial at the top-end, not realistic or natural. However, they were full bodied and very quiet. As always, YMMV. |
