P.S.
curently looking at the Phillips SQ. About $100/tube. Not sure I want to invest that much having not have heard them but they sound like what I’m looking for based on the reviews I have read. I mean not very easy to just go audition tubes right. So recommendations would be appreciated.
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@rodman99999
oh nice. Might be just what the DR ordered. Thanks, and 10-4 on the noise factor.
Thanks |
Very interesting article. In my description I used the phrase “laid back” I like the phrase “ to relaxed” better. So Insert that in my opening statement. |
RAM Roger Modjeski ultra low noise tubes
tube wizard with matching over many parameters |
I've used the 6922 Phillips SQ and the premium 7308's. They have outstanding sonics; a liquid midrange, smooth extension at top, with a huge soundstage. The 7308's have deeper bass.
I've rolled so many 6922 variants that I feel the Philips are really special. It's the same tube as the Amperex SQ.
Also Telefunken, but they're pricey.
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6n23p Voskhods Rocket logo, 1974-1979 period, earlier the better, you will not look back for other NOS, and are more economic than western alternatives. Fit and forget, simply they are not sounding like hifi and have a better musical flow, and are quiet.
Prices have gone up but they worth it, only thing to find a is a good vendor. |
I use the
Amperex 6922, 1965 “USN”, White Label, Gold Pins
for the output of my CD Player. (ModWright modded)
Quite vivid!
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op for the ’improvement’ you seek i would suggest 3 old stock options
-- ecc88 or pcc88 from tungsram (hungarian production) - expensive but not crazy expensive
-- 6dj8 or ecc88 from telefunken, valvo or mazda (france) - crazy expensive
not quite as good but very close
-- ei (ram logo, yellow lettering) ecc88 from old yugo plant - still reasonable |
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Hi all. Thanks for the much appreciated recommendations. I decided to try the Phillips SQ platinum pins for the first roll. I really wanted to try the telefunkens but $550.00+/tube is a little out of my price point for this experiment. I have read really good things about the Phillips SQ so I’m very interested to see the difference they will make and how I like them. I may try the Siemens also as a comparison. Since I am going to try a couple different brands I can’t afford the price of the Tele’s and buy a couple more brands as well. Hard enough getting she who must be obeyed on board with this as it is. 😂. I will report back and let you know what I think about the Phillips as they will arrive first. |
@mijostyn
Nice. The PH3 is a lovely phono stage. The ph7 uses the same circuit boards and ICs as that unit which was the main upgrade from the ph6. However still not the same machine. However it produces a lovely sound and I really like it.. I only wish it had variable gain. At 57db of gain I can’t use anything less than a 5mv output cartridge. Prob could do 4mv but that’s very limiting in regards to what’s out there. Outside of that I love the unit. Also I have not done the single power rectifier tube upgrade yet. ARC is only taking warranty repairs at the moment. Well check that they are doing upgrades but there is a wait list (I’m on it). So that will also help make things sound even better. |
where did you source the Phillps from if i might ask ?
i have some Cryo treated Russian Rockets in my RM-4, they are indeed lovely |
I got them from upscale audio. I trust them. I think Kevin does a good job. Bought some other tubes from him. Buying tubes is risky if you don’t get them from a reliable source. I’m sure im preaching to then choir. |
These are much more reasonable https://upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/electro-harmonix-6922-gold-pin?variant=29...They are the gold pin Electro-Harmonix. I have the "Kevin’s Stash" grade and they have a very clean top end and are also extremely quiet. Sorry, but I’ll have to disagree about these tubes. I recently bought a pair and the highs don’t hold up when pushed. My pair sounded artificial at the top-end, not realistic or natural. However, they were full bodied and very quiet. As always, YMMV. |
@lowrider57
Actually I think that what came OEM in my ARC. I don’t push it that hard so I have never experienced the same think you have. I think it’s a good sounding tube tho. Just a little relaxed on the top, and midrange for me. |
Also these are being used in a phono stage and not a main pre so maybe there is a difference. |
Oops, you did say that's what you were using. My bad. |
@lowrider57
lol. It’s all good. I knew what you meant lol. |
@fsonicsmith
The M-Steelhead eh. Now there’s a Manley mans piece of gear there my friend.. Tell me how much you like it. |
@barnettk
I would never let go of my Steelhead.
Are there better? Without a doubt. Is there anything more enjoyable in my system? I don't think so.
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Back in the day, when the 6922 was in flower, there was an electronics company that made the best equipment in the world, by a long shot. That was Hewlett Packard, making the test equipment that put the men on the moon.
To run the very best test equipment required the quietest, most linear tubes obtainable. H/P did this by selecting tubes from manufacturers like Amperex and Telefunken, and charging the earth for their selected tubes. Stories back in the day told of co-op students testing a box of 144 tubes like Amperex SQ 6922's, putting the H/P stencil on 3 or so, and putting the rest in the dumpster.
But no-one remembers these stories now, or why they were credible. Bottom line is this: H/P branded tubes command no premium, in spite of being the best in the world, period. The very best were selected by Telefunken for H/P to H/P standards.
I have a sleeve of them, three still with the original Telefunken AND H/P seals. And you can't have 'em. |
I would recommend the valvo 6922 6dj8 tubes from the fifties they are my holy grail of 6922 tubes and they are made to a higher standard than all the other variants. They sound absolutely like real music.
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@terry9
Interesting comments since I work for HP. Been there since 1996 😀. Yeah Bill and Dave did it right in regards to everything in those days. Can’t argue that. However if you want to unload those tubes let me know. |
@fsonicsmith
I do understand. Manley makes some of the best sounding gear in its price point and beyond. I had the pleasure of hearing a system with the Chinook phono pre and it was impressive. |
@barnettk
H/P - what a legacy. Most of my test equipment is H/P from the 70's and 80's; lovely feel, there's a sensual component to using equipment that good. One of my colleagues put it best after the V-P personally blew up a prototype, saying, "Now I understand why Boeing uses H/P. They want to be in business next year."
Don't know if I'd ever part with those 6922's though. I think I got the last sleeve from the early sixties, must have been 20 years ago, cost me $100 a piece back then. |
@terry9
It’s funny I never even thought to see if I can find any of those tubes in a lab someplace. Been at the company for 25 years and into home Audio long before that and never even crossed my mind to see what’s available. Lol. Too funny. |
Good luck!!! Quietest, most musical tubes I ever used in my ARC. |
Will definitely inquire about it for sure. |
Recommend that you follow the advise of petg60. I followed that exact advice that he provided to me in this thread: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/1975-new-reflektor-6n23p-swgp-or-siemens-amperex-telefunken-c...The Voskhods absolutely embarrassed the $600 pair of Upscale Audio matched 1963 Siemens E188CC that had theretofore defeated all challengers...many of which have been mentioned in this thread. Should you be wise enough to follow petg60's advice, I predict that you will find yourself toasting Lagavulin on the rocks...or similar...to him, as did I...while enjoying the most musical presentation you've ever heard through the gear that your wise adherence to his advice benefitted from. |
barnettk, I think you meant 0.4 and 0.5 mV. With 57dB you would need to install transformers for tubes 0.2 mv or less. ARC can be strange that way. 57 dB is too much gain for most high output cartridges but not enough for all MC cartridges. My PH3 SE has 54 dB. It is quiet enough for a cartridge with 0.5 mV output but it really sings with high output cartridges in the 3 mV region. I have a Soundsmith "Voice" ready to go as soon as Sota gets to building my turntable. I do have Sowter transformers installed inside the PH3 for low impedance MC cartridges but right now I'm into high output cartridges which IMHO are a much better value and in some ways better than MC cartridges. You could also install transformers in the PH7. In the future I intend on getting a current mode phono stage and a very low impedance MC cartridge. My understanding is that this combination results in a very dynamic sound challenging the high output cartridges in that regard.
Where are you getting the Phillips from. Are they tested and graded?
I generally only use RAM Labs and Upscale Audio because they test and grade all their tubes which I find very reassuring. I have always purchased the highest grades and have always gotten wonderful tubes.
Very important for phono stages! |
Ya, I spent thirty great years at Boeing... we did have an affinity for HP and Tektronix... had our own Cray and cert / calibration labs.., etc
do some research on RAM tube testing/matching... for grading current production I doubt anyone affordable does better...
maybe Andy at Vintage Tube... but he “ hates “
Russian tubes...
I really enjoy the civility and expertise in this thread of music lovers :-))))) my best to all |
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This dialog could be superimposed on a discussion of fine wines, just by changing a few words. I think the effects of tube rolling are way overblown, although "real" in the eye of the beholder. In my opinion, a few judicious changes to a circuit or an upgrade in coupling capacitors, can make a far greater difference.
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@
mijostyn4
"
I think you meant 0.4 and 0.5 mV."
Yes you would be correct that is exactly what I meant. I actually thought about that last night as i lay in bed and meant to put out a correction. I realize that people read these forums for accurate info and I did intend to correct that statement but you beat me to it.
"
Where are you getting the Phillips from. Are they tested and graded?"
I by all my tube from upscale audio, and yes they are tested and matched. they provide the T rating on each tube.
These shipped yesterday. I think I am also going to give the siemens a try for comparison as well.
Thanks
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@lewm
"
This dialog could be superimposed on a discussion of fine wines, just by changing a few words. I think the effects of tube rolling are way overblown, although "real" in the eye of the beholder. In my opinion, a few judicious changes to a circuit or an upgrade in coupling capacitors, can make a far greater difference"
I suppose you are correct. However that's not something I can do myself, and every time I want to upgrade or roll again my gear has to go to the shop, wait for weeks to get it back, etc etc. With tubes I can make a change anytime I want. Now if I were an EE and could do that myself then maybe but for me its more about convivence plus its fun rolling tubes and experimenting. :) |
@tomic601
30 years. wow thats a long time to work period, and a blessing. Working for one company for 30 years is an achievement. You should be happy to be able to claim that. |
"In my opinion, a few judicious changes to a circuit or an upgrade in coupling capacitors, can make a far greater difference." Not everyone can solder/mod their own gear. I don't own a piece of gear, that hasn't been upgraded and have also upgraded numerous customer pieces. I've not yet found a piece of tubed equipment, that didn't respond even more obviously (sound even MORE like the real thing), with the highest-echelon tubes, after having it's circuitry upgraded. It's been my experience, over the past 50+ years: improvements are cumulative. What's the problem with seeking the best obtainable reproduction, via EVERY available resource?
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I was blessed, we had 5 zip codes and a lot of frequent flier miles over the globe- took some risks and had a wonderful career.
I think the wine analogy is spot on, we serve DAVIS Family as our “ house “ Red. IF the kind posters of this thread find themselves in So Cal or Seattle, stop by with tubes to roil !!!
finally, I don’t disagree that hot ridding a circuit with high end parts can yield stunning results.... just make sure the signal in that circuit can form those big capacitors.... |
"What’s the problem with seeking the best obtainable reproduction, via EVERY available resource?"
Im taking that as a rhetorical question. Just in case it was a direct question I never said I did not agree with the statement. I am saying one step at a time. I would consider something like that out at some point now that its been brought up. Good point and I appreciate it very much. |
@barnettk- Yes (rhetorical, indeed)! That post was meant for, though I never addressed it to, lewm (my bad). |
@rodman99999
Gotcha. No worries. I was just covering both bases. I did not take it the wrong way even if it was directed at me. Good conversation.
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@barnettk- btw: The reason I like to suggest that particular 6922 variant comparison; the things/aspects/sense of realism, that the author listens to and for, precisely mirror my own. By the time I heard about that one year (1975) run of the Russian Grail, the prices were nuts. As happy as I've been, with my sets of the early Sixties, grey shield, Siemens CCa and E188CC, gold pins: I've no regrets. Glad I bought them all, way back when the prices weren't as salty (25+ years) Here's a good treatise, on why the CCa designated tubes are as good as they are: https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SH%2DCCA%2D1963 Keep in mind, as you read that; it's all about QUIET, in a phono stage. |
@rodman99999
will do. Thanks. |
New tubes have arrived! WOW that was fast. I just ordered them on Wed. Anyway just in time for the weekend. |
ratings as such:
2 tubes t1=1200 t2=10000
2 tubes t1=1200 t2=10500
so two sets of 2 perfectly matched
not to shabby at all |
So here is my question. Should I stagger these for example:
socket 1 (12000-10000)
socket 2 (12000=10500)
socket 3 (12000-10000)
socket 4 (12000-10500)
or sockets 1&2 (12000-10000)
sockets 3&4 (12000-105000)
oh and correction on the post above that should read 12000, not 1200.
not sure if it matters or not. |
Of the many I tried in my Manley Chinook phonostage, Mazda 7308 are my favorite. Most complete sounding. Extended highs, full rich bass and transparent midrange.
Got them from Brent Jesse |
Oh by the way. Nevermindedon my question. Got the answer from ARC. |
